08-15-11: Almarg
2)The differences reflect interactions between power cord characteristics, the characteristics of the particular incoming AC, and the particular components in the particular system, especially their power supplies.
3)There is no reason to expect much if any consistency of those interactions from system to system, and therefore no reason to expect much if any consistency or predictability of the sonic effects of a particular power cord.
4)While a power cord may have effects on the tonality of any given system, it is incorrect to attribute tonal characteristics to a power cord, because those tonal effects will vary from system to system. It seems to me that, in the comments above, Al has identified one of the most recurring flaws in the thinking of many audiophiles, namely that
If using component X results in audible difference Y, then audible difference Y is attributable to component X. On the face of it, this statement appears to be not only true, but self evident. But under quite common circumstances, it is false. Specifically, its false when the audible difference resulting from the use of a component is an EXTRINSIC characteristic of that component. An extrinsic characteristic is one that a thing has only IN RELATION TO other things. An intrinsic characteristic is one that a thing has INDEPENDENT OF other things. For example, mass is an intrinsic characteristic, weight is an extrinsic characteristic. Judging from many posts I have seen on Agon, there is a widespread tendency to believe that a components audible characteristic are INTRINSIC, even in cases where there is good reason to believe that they are EXTRINSIC. Al nicely summarized why the audible characteristics of power cords are largely extrinsic, but it seems to me that the same thing can be said of other types of components. The tendency to regard a things characteristics as intrinsic is a kind of localization fallacy, that is, a failure to recognize the characteristics dependence on the external things with which it interacts. For the record, Im guilty of the fallacy Im describing, so Im not casting stones. Just pointing out something that, I believe, results in needless confusion and disagreement here on Agon. I suspect that the tendency to regard a things characteristics as intrinsic is an inherent human bias. In any case, it seems to be an inherent audiophile bias. FWIW. Bryon |
08-19-11: Zaikesman
I have to wonder if those positions are based more on theory or experience. In my own experience, although maybe some of this extrinsic/intrinsic business does apply (and I would agree that a good bit of it does apply when it comes to speaker cables in particular), I have pretty much found that any power cord's sonic signature migrates between components with the cord to a significant extent. Hi Zaikesman Your point about theory vs. experience is well taken. I have a weakness for being theoretical, as anyone who has read my posts can testify to. Having said that, I generally regard myself as an empiricist, which is to say, I believe that most bodies of knowledge result from experience, whether direct or indirect. But that acknowledgment is not a denigration of theory, for the following reason: ALL knowledge is theory laden. For that matter, all PERCEPTION is theory laden, though unlike most theories, which are written in books, the theories of perception are written in our DNA. But now I'm getting theoretical again. As for my experience with power cords, I have not found the same consistency across diverse applications that you have. So whats to be done when audiophiles disagree about their experiences? Not much, I suppose. Im not generally a fan of sarcasm, but Audiofeils last comment struck me as funny, and à propos. I will say this: I do not doubt your experience or your expertise. I tend to believe what most audiophiles say when they describe what they hear, even though Im aware of the existence of all kinds of unconscious influences to perception and judgment. In light of that, I would be interested to hear more about the particulars of the experiences you mentioned in which power cables exhibited consistent audible characteristics across diverse applications. I would also be interested to hear your response to Als recent comments which, to my mind, make a compelling, albeit theoretical, argument that casts doubt on the position you are advancing. I'm not being challenging. I'm being sincere. I will challenge you on one thing though, and that is this comment... A listener's impression of a power cord might change with seating position! On the face of it, this statement strikes me as a contradiction of the position you are advancing. If a listeners impression of a power cord changes from one listening position to another, then the power cord in question FAILS TO exhibit consistent audible characteristics. And if a power cord fails to exhibit consistent audible characteristics across MINOR changes like listening position, then how can we expect the very same power cord to exhibit consistent audible characteristics across MAJOR changes, like two different audio systems? Bryon |
08-20-11: Douglas_schroeder
I learned long ago that cords have their own intrinsic sound/nature which is transferrable to all components with which they are used...
Conclusions such as this are relatively easy to reach if you are willing to put in the time and money. Frankly, most audiophiles are either too cheap or unwilling to put in the time to reach proper conclusions. If someone wants to get offended by that assessment, so be it. I'm not naming names... Al and I have been advancing the view that the audible characteristics of power cords are likely to be extrinsic, and therefore are likely to vary to some extent across diverse applications. Perhaps you don't mean to imply that we are either lazy or cheap, though that is one interpretation of your comments, even if you decline to name names. I am occasionally lazy and occasionally cheap, though I can't say that I've been either with respect to power cords. If you click on my system, you will see that I currently have 3 power cords in my system with an MSRP of over $1000. The rest of the power cords in the system easily add up to another $500. That's $3.5k in power cords. I did buy some of the cords used, so I didn't spend the whole 3.5, but I spent an appreciable fraction of that. So much for being cheap. As far as being lazy, I won't pretend that I've done a carefully controlled study of the audible effects of power cords under scientifically valid conditions. I suspect that virtually no one has done that, though perhaps you have. What I can say is what I said in my last post, namely that, in my experience, I have not found that power cords have consistent audible characteristics across diverse applications. Admittedly, my experience is limited. And I recognize that there are audiophiles with far greater experience than my own. That is why I asked Zaikesman, in all sincerity, to report the particulars of his experiences. Unfortunately, he didn't do that. Maybe he didn't see my question. By the way, a well known speaker maker visited last week and delivered a lovely set of speakers for review. I took the opportunity to show him the efficacy of changing power cords as we listened to his speakers. Once I replaced the two power cords on the amps he started the demo disc again. Within ten seconds he stopped it, turned to his wife and began to describe the differences...This is now the fifth industry insider who has concluded that cable changes can be easily heard based on simple demo in my room. I don't doubt what this speaker manufacturer heard in your listening room, and for that matter, I don't doubt what you've heard in your listening room, but I will point out that the story above provides no evidence that the audible changes you experienced were INTRINSIC to the cables. Changing a cable and then hearing a difference does not tell you whether the difference heard is attributable to characteristics of the cable itself or to characteristics of the cable's interactions with the components to which it is attached. Neither I nor Al has expressed doubt that power cables can result in audible differences. We have expressed doubt, in different ways, about whether the differences that are heard among power cables are attributable solely to the cables themselves. It is clear from your post that you believe that they are, but what you report in your post does provide a reason for that conclusion. I suspect you do in fact have a reason, as I have read some of your other posts, and found you a knowledgable and reasonable person. For those of us with less experience, can you provide a specific example or two in which a power cord exhibited consistent audible characteristics across diverse applications? Bryon |
Douglas - Thank you for your thoughtful and kind response. It's difficult to advocate a view in the face of opposition while remaining a gentleman. Thank you for doing that. I have tested enough sets of cables to determine a correlation between the build of cables and the expected sonic result
EVERY cable set I have ever used (Jena Labs, Magnan Cables, Tara Labs, MIT, Wireworld, Clarity Cables - to name some of those reviewed) and others I experimented with on my own inclduing XLO, Audioquest, Harmonic Technology and others - heard in sets always carried consistent sonic attributes to whatever gear they were connected. This observation is actually easier for me to believe than some of the other observations that have been made on this thread, and it highlights the need to distinguish the following two views
(1) SETS of power cables have consistent audible characteristics across different SYSTEMS. (2) INDIVIDUAL power cables have consistent audible characteristics across different COMPONENTS within the same system. For whatever reason, (1) is easier for me to believe than (2). Maybe that is nothing more than a prejudice on my part. Its clear from the passage I quoted above that, in your experience, (1) is true. I am interested to hear whether, in your experience, (2) is also true. In other words
Lets say you put a new power cable on your amp and notice that the bass has become rolled off, or bloated, or less pitch defined, or whatever. Would you then expect that power cable to have the SAME effect on the system when placed on the preamp or the source? bc |
Douglas - Thank you for your detailed response. 08-20-11: Douglas_schroeder
I have found the result of mixed cables swapping to be fairly unpredictable. This has been my experience with power cords. It is largely for that reason that I've expressed skepticism about power cords having consistent audible characteristics. As I understand your view, the consistent characteristics of power cords are particularly audible when you use sets of power cords from the same manufacturer. I use several identical power cords from the same manufacturer (Shunyata), and I can't say that I've noticed any consistent audible characteristics when adding each new cord to various components. I think of myself as a careful listener, but maybe I'm missing something. In any case, like Al, I'm curious to know whether your observation that sets of cables exhibit consistent audible characteristics applies to power cords alone, or to power cords + interconnects + speaker cables. 08-21-11: Douglas_schroeder
Why are people in this discussion acting as though cables have infinitely flexible characteristics? To clarify, I have not been advancing the view that power cables have infinitely flexible characteristics. I've been advancing the view that there is reason to doubt that power cables have consistent audible characteristics across diverse applications. That is a considerably more conservative view. It also bears repeating that I'm NOT saying that all cables are equal, or that changing cables does not result in audible changes to a system's sound. I very much believe that cables change the way a system sounds, INCLUDING power cables. I am simply skeptical about the CONSISTENCY of those changes, when the cable in question is a power cable. So, I come out more or less where Al does, in that I remain skeptical that power cables have consistent audible characteristics across diverse applications. But your comments have peaked my curiosity about experimenting a bit, so perhaps in the future I will discover something unexpected. In other words, I am skeptical, but not dogmatic. I should also point out that I am in complete agreement with Al about the differences between power cables and analog interconnects/speaker cables. The skepticism I've expressed about power cables has no bearing on my views about other kinds of cables. Bryon |
08-22-11: Zaikesman
I'll ask you your own question in modified form: If your impression of the sound of a speaker were to change with listening position (and of course it would), would you then conclude that the speaker "fails to exhibit consistent audible characteristics" and expect it not to necessarily display any similarities in another setting? This is an interesting question, and one that had not occurred to me. My answer is of course no, I would not conclude from differences in sound from one listening position to another that a speaker fails to exhibit consistent audible characteristics. The reason is because I have some idea of WHY a speakers sound changes from one listening position to another, including things like the speakers radiation pattern, diffraction, room reflections, room modes, etc.. In the case of power cords, however, I have no idea why a power cord would sound different from one listening position to another. The whole idea is a bit of a puzzle to me. I think you mean something like this
If you're sitting in one spot, you might react positively to a cord substitution that subjectively tightens the bass response. If you're sitting in another position, even with the same system, you might instead react more positively to a cord substitution that subjectively mellows the treble, or whatever
Remember, this is always in relation to the use of some other power cord; it's not possible to compare against no cord at all.
What puzzles me about this statement is the attribution of the differences heard TO THE POWER CORD ITSELF. I understand that, in situations where the introduction of a new component results in a change in the sound, there is a natural temptation to conclude that the change heard is attributable to the component introduced. But that is precisely the reasoning I was challenging in my initial post on 8/18, when I wrote
one of the most recurring flaws in the thinking of many audiophiles, namely that
If using component X results in audible difference Y, then audible difference Y is attributable to component X.
On the face of it, this statement appears to be not only true, but self evident. But under quite common circumstances, it is false. Specifically, its false when the audible difference resulting from the use of a component is an EXTRINSIC characteristic of that component. But now we're back where we started! :-o Something tells me that weve come about as far as were going to. I appreciate your thoughtful comments, Zaikesman. This has been an interesting thread, and its piqued my curiosity to experiment further. It isnt a consensus, but its something. Bryon |
11-20-12: Almarg
...we are here to share information, ideas, and experiences, which hopefully will be mutually beneficial as we try to guide our investments of time and money in directions that stand the greatest chance of being rewarding. I for one agree completely with this statement. Audio is a hobby and people are entitled to approach it however they please, whether it's scientifically or impressionistically. Having said that, many opinions that might be mistaken for scientific are in fact impressionistic. It seems to me that Al was pointing out such an opinion. Of course this hobby is not a science. But many of the methods and values characteristic of science can be brought to bear on the pursuit of satisfaction in this hobby... methods like controlling confounding variables, careful attributions of causes, explicit and precise definitions of concepts, repeatability as a standard for the validity of conclusions, and so on. It's also worth pointing out that many conversations that take place daily on A'gon raise issues with strong parallels in the philosophy of science... issues like the role of perception in knowledge, the various forms of explanation, the nature of truth, controversies about how beliefs should be justified, the relation between speculative theories and more established bodies of knowledge, interlevel relations in complex systems, reductionism, emergence, and so on. For some people, myself included, the "scientific" approach to this hobby enhances their enjoyment of it. It's not only the enjoyment of having a system that is more suited to your preferences, but also the enjoyment of the PROCESS that the "scientific" approach encourages - a process of both discovery and understanding. Bryon |
