When I said "better terms" I didn't mean only the price. In your example, no I won't pay $30k instead of $40k.
But I will buy cartridge from England for 60% what it is here or motor controller for my Nottingham table. Not big money true. Some American distributors and dealers just feel entitled to much more than what I would consider reasonable. Yes, I am aware of import taxes and such. Too much greed and need to control. |
There are too many ways that uninformed customers could unintentionally buy a grey market product. While the purpose of this policy might be focused on the grey market, its scope is too broad.
Like I suggested in a prior post, I would be surprised if the policy was rigidly enforced. I suspect that it's more of calculated deterrent. The problem is that it has deterred me from ever considering a Sonus Faber product. |
So Inna, are you willing to pay $30K for a $40K pair of Strads, knowing that you cannot get replace parts if anything goes wrong? At some point service becomes part of "better terms". |
Some companies provide a different model numbers for stores such as Sears, and Best Buy. Some also provide different model numbers (various items) for other countries, even when the power supplies will work at 100-240 volts, 50-60 cycles. Something like this might be a simple solution for making it easier on everyone. If you see a strange model number, that would tell you quick and easy. I'm sure counterfeiters can work around this, but they also could mark/stamp it into the wood cabinet, to make it hard for them. |
And I will be a destroyer of their interpretation of legal commerce and will support whoever offers me better terms. |
Phaelon - Your statement that they have just placed the burden on the end user is just not accurate. Sumiko and Sonus Faber have worked diligently to tighened up the distribution channel. The grey market problem is much less than it was 5+ years ago. They have worked this issue from several angles and seem to have reduced the problem greatly. In addition, they have warned the end user of the potential problems with dealing with the grey market - both on their website and here on Audiogon. Remember, these warning statements have been around for years.
I leave it to you to worry about the potential legal aspects of the issue. I will continue to support the authorized channel. |
"It must be important for companies to protect their distributors and their territories.”
Agreed. And if there is a problem, then they need to tighten up their distribution chain. They simply cannot place that burden on the end user. They are the manufacturer. Every speaker out there was originally in their possession. They chose who to sell them to. If the distribution network is not functioning as intended, then it is their problem. Broaden your thinking and really consider the precedence, legal ramifications and potential for abuse. No contract can cover everything. People buy and sell things all the time based on very reasonable assumptions, including that a company's repair facility will offer repair. A buyer has certain rights based on nothing more that the reasonable expectations of “this is the way it’s alway been done”. And I suspect strongly that even if a company was allowed an exception, it would be with the responsibility of making sure that their oddball policy was well understood by every prospective buyer. |
It must be important for companies to protect their distributors and their territories. It has to be worthwhile to promote and support products that are sold though developed dealer networks. |
Good point. There can be room for a legal challenge here, I guess. |
I would love to see this tested legally. I know that there are some here who think a company has the right to make any condition it wants, but thats not true, and there would be huge problems if it was. Judges like to make rulings based on industry standards. Who reads every document set down before them. Really, think about it. We sign stuff all the time, everywhere, without giving it a thought. What stops companies from taking advantage of that. "Let the buyer beware" is not a legal defense and if it was, the marketplace couldnÂ’t exist. Judges rule against this kind of thing all the time simply because it is unreasonable. |
""""12-06-11: Janeb
How many times have you bought a speaker and it has had a problem during its limited warranty period...I never have."""""
dont worry it will happen. as soon as You will get your first system it may hapen. :-) |
REL service and support is a big joke as well. |
I've had a very negative experience with a US distributor who offered NO
service or support of any kind for a NOS cartridge that I bought from a guy
who bought it overseas but never used it. I accept the policy, but I don't
understand it. I simply asked for a specification and was denied any
information when I quoted the serial number.
I have absolutely no regrets about buying this cartridge, though I did not
understand the implications at the time. The seller was upfront, though we
did not discuss possible repair issues down the road. I've had no problems,
so things are fine. It's not really enough money to worry about with
something like a cartridge, but an expensive amp or speaker is another
matter.
If one really wants a particular product and if it's rarely available in the used
market, I guess the choice is to either buy it new or buy it used from
overseas. One just needs to be aware of the risk, and this is what SF is
communicating to its customers.
Sumiko seems much more reasonable about this than was my old cartridge
distributer. |
I have had very good service whenever I have talked to Sumiko. However, I have to wonder how often a speaker will need warranty repair anyway? After all, what's to really fail....the driver, the x-over the connectors...???? I could see that an amp manufacturer or other electronic manufacturer would have concerns, BUT a speaker manufacturer? Don't quite get it! How many times have you bought a speaker and it has had a problem during its limited warranty period...I never have. |
Dtc,
No offense taken. I just wanted to make sure that you understood I was not attacking Sumiko/SF. My comments were just comments (not an attack) and were aimed at any manufacturer that makes a decision not to support gear purchased on the used market that originally came from an authorized dealer. Again, I understand the need to protect dealer networks as much as possible. Market forces will ultimately decide what works but I believe that a company that doesn't warranty such product will eventually be forced to change that policy or go out of business.
To extend the car analogy - imagine if, when you wanted to buy a new car, you had no market for the old one. :)
Phaelon, I think this should be a lesson to buyers and sellers alike. Buyers should get the original sales receipt and sellers should make sure they keep up with it to provide their buyer with some protection. Maybe it's just me but it amazes me how many ads I see that say they can't find the manual or this or that accessory. If they can't do this what's the chance of them having the sales receipt? Sheesh. |
How does one know that the speakers he is buying used, in the classifieds, were originally purchased from a Sumiko authorized dealer?
If a person moves to the US with his speakers purchased through an authorized European distributor, can Sumiko refuse to provide parts? |
Djohnson54 - Sorry if I seem too aggressive about this. I am a huge SF fan and have had great experiences with SF dealers and with Sumiko. Sumiko is not against the used market but they are against the grey market.
I understand why distributors are sensitive to the grey market. There is not enough volume in the high end to support high end brick and mortar stores and a significant grey market. I have purchased SF both new and used. I just will not buy high end equipment that has come through the grey mark.
Enjoy. |
|
Dtc, 12-05-11: Dtc
Djohnson54 - This is about grey market speakers, not ones from authorized dealers. I believe I said as much above: Note in the third to last paragraph they say that it has to have been purchased from an authorized dealer not that YOU have to have purchased from an authorized dealer. This is most likely aimed at the grey-market but I would check with them to be sure if I was about to buy used. After all, you don't really know where the seller originally purchased the product. At least you understood my second point. I'm glad to hear that Sumiko is not that shortsighted. |
Djohnson54 - This is about grey market speakers, not ones from authorized dealers.
Sumiko is perfectly willing to support used equipment, as long as it is not grey market. Nobody buying SF speakers from an authorized dealer should have any qualms about buying them and selling them. If you buy used speakers that originally came from an authorized dealer you are fine. But, if you want to buy from the grey market, then you need to be careful. In fact, supporting grey market speakers would hurt Sumiko's business, because it encourages people to buy from grey market sources, with the knowledge that Sumiko will bail them out if anything happends.
I totally agree that not supporting used equipment that originally came from an authorized dealer would be a bad business models. But that is not their policy. |
Elberoth2 - I was once in the market for a car that was hard to find in the US. I found one, but it was grey market from Canada. I immediately walked away. Same with audio equipment. If I do not know where it comes from I either walk or decide to take a chance, knowing it may be an issue. And "imported from Canada" is very different than grey maket merchadise from Canada.
This policy is about grey market dealers trying to circumvent the SF distribution process, not general purpose sales. If you want to buy grey market equipment from outside Sumiko's territory, just be prepared for the possibility you might have to buy parts from the place of origin. There was a time when there was starting to be a problem with grey market SF speakers in the US. Sumiko shut down a lot of it, which I am fine with.
Incidently, my guess is that if you lived in Europe where you purchased SF speakers from an authorized dealer and moved to the US and brought them with you, chances are Sumiko would sell your parts through their authorized dealer chain.
For me its simple :
If you do not like the Sumiko/Sonus Faber policy, then don't buy the products. Note they are very upfront about the policy here on Audion and on their website.
Always think twice about grey market equipment.
Always ask the source of anything you buy.
Incidenly, I have 5 sets of SF speakers from Concertino Homes to Cremona. I have talked to them on multiple occassions and they have always been extremely helpful. Fortunately, I have never had to had any service. |
So what have we learned so far? It's Sumikos right to make a policy. It's anyones right to have an opinion of their policy, there's the right to have an opinion of peoples opinions, ad nauseam.
The way I read it is: Sumiko will take care of not only the original owner but ANY subsequent owner of a SF product that was ever bought from a NA dealer. The receipt makes it easy but if they get lost there is a serial # trail, you or a dealer will ask for a part for an "xxx" with serial # of "#####", they will look it up and if it's NA based, you're fine.
Caveat emptor/buyer beware is a smart policy and should be in force. Sellers of gray market better add a disclaimer to their ad or it may come back to bite them.
Sumiko is NA family to SF. If your in NA and want to buy outside the family then get your parts outside the family and don't whine about it.
I do feel for the used buyer of a gray piece that didn't know but it goes back to "buyer beware". I can't imaging NOT getting even an authorized dealer to do the "labor", you'll just have to supply the part. I also think this is only going to affect a very small % owners. IMO!
To add: Seeing as this is about protecting their dealer network, I would think it quite possible that if someone wanted to trade in a gray piece on a new piece, the dealer (that Sumiko wants to protect) will get authorizition on the gray piece so it will be seviceable after he sells it.
Again, I think this will be a very small % of the time. |
Why should Sumiko (the distributor) support the grey marketer's activities?
Being able to save huge buying from overseas vs. overpaying buying from US distributor looks grey to me. |
Why wouldnÂ’t Sumiko just surcharge the parts and service levied on grey market SF products?
US imported products would receive preferred service/part prices and owners of grey market SF product would just have to pay a surcharge to subsidize the US distribution channel. |
Lots of conjecture & speculation above.
There are a few folks, including myself, who have responded to this thread to indicate we have been able to get parts and/or service with no problems.
If there is anybody who can give an example of being refused parts and/or service, that would certainly bring another facet to the question of yes, maybe or no. |
Dtc,
You may not have seen my original post above but that was my interpretation of the more complete version of what the OP quoted.
I certainly understand that it's a company's right to determine how they do business. If they want to honor warranties only for the original owner then that's fine. Indeed, if they want to only sell parts to the original owner then that's their right too. I was just pointing out that, in my opinion, it is short-sighted for a company to try and hurt the used market because their new business, at some level, depends on the ability of owners to recoup some of their investment by selling their current equipment. It's they law of unintended consequences at play. |
Ladies and gentlemen,
Like Rrog I too received excellent service from Sumiko.
Bought a Strata II used here but it had no set-up instructions.
Their site had instructions for other models but no Strata II.
After an email I contacted Dermot directly. Explained my need and he said he thought he had copy on file and would fax me one for $10.
I agreed, however there was difficulty and he sent me a hard copy instead.
Never did bill me for the $10.
Thought that was pretty good service.
Best,
Dave |
Seems to me like the adiophile community and Sumiko and dealers would benefit from Sumiko posting a follow up notice clarifying their reasons and goals for the announced policy and what they consider to be non-supportable product. |
Dtc - do you think that your VW dealership should refuse a full paid rapair work on your Jetta, only because it was imported from Canada ?
This is radiculous. |
Grey or not grey market, parts and service should be available. But it's their business how to do business. They can have it and they can listen to their nice "furniture" by bloody selves. There are a lot of better speakers for the price, below the price and above it. |
Folks, don't overthink this. This is about obvious grey market product, with no serial numbers or serial numbers than clearly do not have a US origin. If you have a serial number that says it was US merchandise then you should be fine. Sumiko is not some sort of evil empire. They provide great customer service. They just want to cut down on grey market product, as do all distributors. If you have any question about used product or unauthorized dealers, just call them.
Honestly, I think it is good for Sumiko to warn people of possbile issues with used equipment, rather than have people find it out after the fact.
Djohnson54 - many companies only honor a warranty for the original owner. Sumiko/SF is no different. They will sell you replacement parts if your product is not grey market. |
12-03-11: Djohnson54
Here's another angle on this discussion. What's a person who bought new SF product supposed to do with it if they buy another SF product? Stick it in the closet? Are all SF dealers willing to take used equipment bought from them back in on trade? What do they then do with the used equipment; sell it used? Will SF warranty it then?
I imagine if they can't supply the receipt from the person that made the original purchase, it may be grey merchandise. They may resell grey merchandise providing their own receipt. They may like the idea if you throw your present gear away. I guess they don't see it as free advertising having a lot of products out there, with people talking about it. It sounds like they want us to buy their products, make the profit, and do their police work. This isn't counterfeit merchandise. The company that makes the products should do some work helping out. They are a big part of this problem. |
Here's another angle on this discussion. What's a person who bought new SF product supposed to do with it if they buy another SF product? Stick it in the closet? Are all SF dealers willing to take used equipment bought from them back in on trade? What do they then do with the used equipment; sell it used? Will SF warranty it then?
I understand protecting your dealer network by prohibiting gray-market goods but the used market in legitimately-purchased product is different. I have said before that the used market can actually HELP equipment companies. There is a certain segment of the audiophile population that prefers to buy new. What do they do with their current equipment if they want to buy again and the dealer won't take trades? Toss it? The closet again? The dealers will sell more new equipment if the prospective buyer can recoup some of their investment in the equipment they have by selling it on the used market. There is a synergism between the new and used markets that shouldn't be ignored. If not for the used market, the market for new equipment would be substantially smaller. |
Why should Sumiko (the distributor) support the grey marketer's activities?
Larryi (System | Threads | Answers | This Thread) Why not? After all, they support the company that makes the grey merchandise. |
I've also had multiple dealings with Sumiko and they have been positive. If interested in purchasing used SF speakers, I agree with the other poster about calling Sumiko firsthand to obtain clarification from the "horse's mouth." So to speak.
If the policy quoted is verbatim, I think it will be interested to see the impact, if any, on SF sales, both new and used.
Fortunately for me, I guess, when I demo'd SF speakers they did not connect with me. |
The day may soon arrive when we buy direct from the manufacturer or an arms-length specialized mail/internet dealer. They will demo their gear at trade shows near big cities, or through small, home-based hobbyists, advertise on sites like this on the net and in some paper magazines, and then sell direct and offer great service. Forums will discuss the quality of the components and level of customer service.
Wait a minute, this is already happening. There is one really good dealer in my area and many good quality, carefully assembled home systems where I have heard some great components. Specialist set-up guys go around charging a fee to set up systems and consult with audiophiles. The industry is changing. |
Good analogy Elberoth2; esp. since SF speakers can easily cost as much or MORE than I have ever paid for a car! The only motive that I could impute to VW if they were to implement such a policy, would be that they wanted to eliminate the private re-sale market. Now you may ask, how does that translate to our hobby? i believe that you would have a situation like the "bad old days". The only outlet for your used gear would be your local high-end dealer. He/she controlled the second hand market and would give you $0.10 on the dollar for your gear in cash (re-selling for $.50 on the dollar) or maybe $0.20 in credit toward a trade priced at full retail!!! No wonder they want to eliminate the re-sale market. Given that gray market is a small portion of total sales (of course, since margins are slim, its significant in terms of lost new sales), and re-sales would be a small portion of that portion, I don't think that the refusal to sell parts unless you can verify proper purchase is definitely aimed at restricting second hand sales. IOW, Audiogon!!!! |
I agree with Peterayer and Swampwalker. Not covering warranty repairs should be perfectly appropriate.
Just imagine going with a 10 year old VW Jetta, which was imported from, say Canada, by the previous owner, and the dealership refusing a full paid rapair work. Not a warranty work, since the car is long after warranty, but a full paid service.
I think that under EU law you would be able to sue such a dealer.
And car dealers are no different than hifi delaers (techs) - thay also have annual training sessions, had invested a load of money into the shop etc. |
Swampwalker, Peterayer - that is why Sumiko put up the warning on Audiogon. So people would not be caught unware. If anyone has any doubt, get the serial number and call Sumiko. There used to be a guy who sold SF under the name American Home Theater or something like that. It was clearly grey market. I called Sumiko and they said he was not an authorized dealer. End of my involvement with him. With Internet sales (new) I always check on whether the seller is an authorized dealer. I do sometimes buy from unauthorized dealers or from owners who cannot guarantee were it came from, but I do so knowing I may be trouble for parts later on. I certainly do not make significant purchases when I cannot trace the orginal. Just good buying sense in this day and age. |
I agree with Swampwalker. Well stated. |
Why should Sumiko (the distributor) support the grey marketer's activities? Couldn't agree more, but what about the innocent poor shmuck who buys a used pair under assurance that they were NOT gray market. Not covering warranty repairs is perfectly appropriate. Having to prove the provenance of any item for which you are ordering a apare part is draconian, IMO. |
Sumiko is the US distributor. As a distributor, Sumiko plays a substantial role, and incurs considerable cost supporting their product line. A friend of mine is a Sonus Faber dealer. Dealers have to go to California for training about the product line and how to properly locate a speaker in the customer's room (dealers are expected to provide such service to customers). The regional representative for Sonus Faber also gives my friend substantial help on a variety of issues, including proper design of home theater system (e.g., number and location of subwoofers), and has actually come to the job site to troubleshoot home theater installations.
This kind of support means a lot of cost. Grey marketers don't incur such costs and can undercut the distributor. Why should Sumiko (the distributor) support the grey marketer's activities? |
Sounds more like an effort to help the NA dealers stay in business. Think ahead: no dealers, no distributor = what? mail order from Italy? Good for the Italians and nearby countries, not so much for NA. That would be the case, if only US weren't #1 exporter of second hand equipment worldwide. I do not have any statitics, but I would guesstimate that US citizens export 20x more used hifi gear than they actually import. Just ask yourself a question - how many times have you been approched by non US buyers here on AgoN, and how many times have you sourced anything abroad ? There are many reasons for that - US have the biggest s/h market, lowest prices, having AudiogoN, speaking langueage everyone can understand etc. If it wasn't for US export sales of second hand gear, the possiblity to sell brand new gear to US clients through US dealers would decrease substantially. Why ? More time needed to 'unload' used gear and even lower s/h prices. All that would mean that customesr would have less money at their disposal to invest into new stuff. |
I have had excellent customer service from Sumiko. When I needed spikes for my REL subwoofer they were very friendly and provided me with a set of spikes for only $10.00. I later needed an amplifier repaired and I received the same prompt and friendly service and the cost was very reasonable.
I suggest calling Sumiko and ask for Dermot if you have any concerns about parts and service for Sonus Faber instead of jumping to conclusions. |
Well, I guess this policy won't affect most of their clients who buy new from authorized US dealers. But all that sounds really bad to me. I have never had any interest in either Sonus Faber or Audio Research though.
Will it hurt their business? I don't know and I don't give a damn. |
Also, a lot of us have a good memory when someone treats us right. A lot of us have a better memory of those who've done us wrong! |
"Drive the prices down considerably", maybe (actually probably) for the gray market products. Might actually help the "real" products. Boxes are tough to keep around but a copy of the receipt can easily be tucked away and becomes a selling point. Ads might say, "OBM and R". Don't have the OBM? Well, pack it well and don't forget the R. It's part of the deal.
My 12 cents (adjusted for inflation).
Onemug (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
For those who don't have a receipt, lower resale value. That can equal to someone (seller) looking for another brand for their new purchase. That would equal less sales for them. After all, who wants to buy something you can't fix... No one is asking for something for nothing. I wonder how people have every receipt for everything they own? |
Not having read any of the above replies, my thoughts:
Sumiko is not the manufacturer, "just" the NA distributor. I'm sure if SF wasn't happy about their policy, things would change (either the policy or the distrubutor). Sounds more like an effort to help the NA dealers stay in business. Think ahead: no dealers, no distributor = what? mail order from Italy? Good for the Italians and nearby countries, not so much for NA.
"Drive the prices down considerably", maybe (actually probably) for the gray market products. Might actually help the "real" products. Boxes are tough to keep around but a copy of the receipt can easily be tucked away and becomes a selling point. Ads might say, "OBM and R". Don't have the OBM? Well, pack it well and don't forget the R. It's part of the deal.
My 12 cents (adjusted for inflation). |
I've had bad customer service from Sumiko that this statement on their web site just seals the coffin tight! Stay away from anything Sumiko does should be the message IMHO. |
There is such a long list of rock solid audio companies one can rely on for fantastic service after the sale and that are are run by caring owners: Ayre, Bryston, Thiel, Macintosh, PS Audio, Wilson, Audio Research, Conrad-Johnson, Shunyata Research, etc. I'm sure others can add to the list. This isn't to say that no one has ever had a bum experience with the ones I've listed here but reputations are built over time and those reputations are well earned ( or well deserved).
I choose to support the good ones whenever I can. Stanwal, you are *so* right about companies that treat potential customers rudely. Run, don't walk, away from them. |
