Dtc, 12-05-11: Dtc
Djohnson54 - This is about grey market speakers, not ones from authorized dealers. I believe I said as much above: Note in the third to last paragraph they say that it has to have been purchased from an authorized dealer not that YOU have to have purchased from an authorized dealer. This is most likely aimed at the grey-market but I would check with them to be sure if I was about to buy used. After all, you don't really know where the seller originally purchased the product. At least you understood my second point. I'm glad to hear that Sumiko is not that shortsighted. |
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Djohnson54 - Sorry if I seem too aggressive about this. I am a huge SF fan and have had great experiences with SF dealers and with Sumiko. Sumiko is not against the used market but they are against the grey market.
I understand why distributors are sensitive to the grey market. There is not enough volume in the high end to support high end brick and mortar stores and a significant grey market. I have purchased SF both new and used. I just will not buy high end equipment that has come through the grey mark.
Enjoy. |
How does one know that the speakers he is buying used, in the classifieds, were originally purchased from a Sumiko authorized dealer?
If a person moves to the US with his speakers purchased through an authorized European distributor, can Sumiko refuse to provide parts? |
Dtc,
No offense taken. I just wanted to make sure that you understood I was not attacking Sumiko/SF. My comments were just comments (not an attack) and were aimed at any manufacturer that makes a decision not to support gear purchased on the used market that originally came from an authorized dealer. Again, I understand the need to protect dealer networks as much as possible. Market forces will ultimately decide what works but I believe that a company that doesn't warranty such product will eventually be forced to change that policy or go out of business.
To extend the car analogy - imagine if, when you wanted to buy a new car, you had no market for the old one. :)
Phaelon, I think this should be a lesson to buyers and sellers alike. Buyers should get the original sales receipt and sellers should make sure they keep up with it to provide their buyer with some protection. Maybe it's just me but it amazes me how many ads I see that say they can't find the manual or this or that accessory. If they can't do this what's the chance of them having the sales receipt? Sheesh. |
I have had very good service whenever I have talked to Sumiko. However, I have to wonder how often a speaker will need warranty repair anyway? After all, what's to really fail....the driver, the x-over the connectors...???? I could see that an amp manufacturer or other electronic manufacturer would have concerns, BUT a speaker manufacturer? Don't quite get it! How many times have you bought a speaker and it has had a problem during its limited warranty period...I never have. |
I've had a very negative experience with a US distributor who offered NO
service or support of any kind for a NOS cartridge that I bought from a guy
who bought it overseas but never used it. I accept the policy, but I don't
understand it. I simply asked for a specification and was denied any
information when I quoted the serial number.
I have absolutely no regrets about buying this cartridge, though I did not
understand the implications at the time. The seller was upfront, though we
did not discuss possible repair issues down the road. I've had no problems,
so things are fine. It's not really enough money to worry about with
something like a cartridge, but an expensive amp or speaker is another
matter.
If one really wants a particular product and if it's rarely available in the used
market, I guess the choice is to either buy it new or buy it used from
overseas. One just needs to be aware of the risk, and this is what SF is
communicating to its customers.
Sumiko seems much more reasonable about this than was my old cartridge
distributer. |
REL service and support is a big joke as well. |
""""12-06-11: Janeb
How many times have you bought a speaker and it has had a problem during its limited warranty period...I never have."""""
dont worry it will happen. as soon as You will get your first system it may hapen. :-) |
I would love to see this tested legally. I know that there are some here who think a company has the right to make any condition it wants, but thats not true, and there would be huge problems if it was. Judges like to make rulings based on industry standards. Who reads every document set down before them. Really, think about it. We sign stuff all the time, everywhere, without giving it a thought. What stops companies from taking advantage of that. "Let the buyer beware" is not a legal defense and if it was, the marketplace couldnt exist. Judges rule against this kind of thing all the time simply because it is unreasonable. |
Good point. There can be room for a legal challenge here, I guess. |
It must be important for companies to protect their distributors and their territories. It has to be worthwhile to promote and support products that are sold though developed dealer networks. |
"It must be important for companies to protect their distributors and their territories.
Agreed. And if there is a problem, then they need to tighten up their distribution chain. They simply cannot place that burden on the end user. They are the manufacturer. Every speaker out there was originally in their possession. They chose who to sell them to. If the distribution network is not functioning as intended, then it is their problem. Broaden your thinking and really consider the precedence, legal ramifications and potential for abuse. No contract can cover everything. People buy and sell things all the time based on very reasonable assumptions, including that a company's repair facility will offer repair. A buyer has certain rights based on nothing more that the reasonable expectations of this is the way its alway been done. And I suspect strongly that even if a company was allowed an exception, it would be with the responsibility of making sure that their oddball policy was well understood by every prospective buyer. |
Phaelon - Your statement that they have just placed the burden on the end user is just not accurate. Sumiko and Sonus Faber have worked diligently to tighened up the distribution channel. The grey market problem is much less than it was 5+ years ago. They have worked this issue from several angles and seem to have reduced the problem greatly. In addition, they have warned the end user of the potential problems with dealing with the grey market - both on their website and here on Audiogon. Remember, these warning statements have been around for years.
I leave it to you to worry about the potential legal aspects of the issue. I will continue to support the authorized channel. |
And I will be a destroyer of their interpretation of legal commerce and will support whoever offers me better terms. |
Some companies provide a different model numbers for stores such as Sears, and Best Buy. Some also provide different model numbers (various items) for other countries, even when the power supplies will work at 100-240 volts, 50-60 cycles. Something like this might be a simple solution for making it easier on everyone. If you see a strange model number, that would tell you quick and easy. I'm sure counterfeiters can work around this, but they also could mark/stamp it into the wood cabinet, to make it hard for them. |
So Inna, are you willing to pay $30K for a $40K pair of Strads, knowing that you cannot get replace parts if anything goes wrong? At some point service becomes part of "better terms". |
There are too many ways that uninformed customers could unintentionally buy a grey market product. While the purpose of this policy might be focused on the grey market, its scope is too broad.
Like I suggested in a prior post, I would be surprised if the policy was rigidly enforced. I suspect that it's more of calculated deterrent. The problem is that it has deterred me from ever considering a Sonus Faber product. |
When I said "better terms" I didn't mean only the price. In your example, no I won't pay $30k instead of $40k.
But I will buy cartridge from England for 60% what it is here or motor controller for my Nottingham table. Not big money true. Some American distributors and dealers just feel entitled to much more than what I would consider reasonable. Yes, I am aware of import taxes and such. Too much greed and need to control. |
That comments from Elizabeth re Parasound are nonsense.
I have spoken with Tony at Parasound tech support on numerous ocasions and have gotten any part I needed. I buy most if not all my Parasound stuff (inc JC-1s and JC-2s) used and have never been asked to provide proof of auth dealer purchase to get parts. Tony has even helped me with mods to Parasound's design flaws in getting alternative parts (like the JC-1 current surge protectors that can burn up; a design that was changed in later units. Parasound will replace the originals for free). I buy Parasound equipment because they are one of the very few companies that will give you schematics of any product they produce. Try getting those from Cambridge Audio or many other brands. Bryston is pretty good as well, but only a few schematics are supplied by Bryston.
So what is sometimes published policy is rarely enforced, but is there just in case they run across a case of abuse. |
Janeb
Your post:
I have had very good service whenever I have talked to Sumiko. However, I have to wonder how often a speaker will need warranty repair anyway? After all, what's to really fail....the driver, the x-over the connectors...???? I could see that an amp manufacturer or other electronic manufacturer would have concerns, BUT a speaker manufacturer? Don't quite get it! How many times have you bought a speaker and it has had a problem during its limited warranty period...I never have.
My post:
FWIW. I have 5 Vienna Acoustics speakers in my system, which are distributed by Sumiko. All speakers were purchased through authorized dealers. I had one of the drivers go out on one of the speakers in less than two years. However, the dealer handled the replacement driver in an acceptable manner. |
Musicpod why would a driver fail? I can understand it if you over drive the speaker, which would be your fault, but under normal use....I don't get it.
What reason was there for your Vienna drivers failing in such a short period of time?? My point is that I can see a tube amp manufacturer or a digital device manufacturer be concerned about infant mortality in their product, but a speaker manufacturer...............? |
Phaelon's point cannot be dismissed, and is THE issue at hand, especially for THIS website, a facilitator of USED equipment. Sumiko's policy is clear and broad: there will be NO service/parts for used speakers that cannot be verified as originally sold through a dealer. I understand this for a new speaker needing warranty repair, however, this policy clearly impacts the used community in a BIG way, as I'm sure that many if not most transactions here do not include an original invoice. I'm sure many don't have it to begin with, especially if the equipment has been sold several times, a not atypical scenario here at agon. The OP has it right. Under these circumstances, the used market for SF might be tenuous at best. It should actually collapse price-wise, except for the fact that most used buyers will not be aware of Sumiko's new policy, and even future agon buyers will likely not know as this thread slowly fades away. One thing Sumiko must understand, however, is that a robust used market facilitates new product sales as those wishing to upgrade or change have an outlet to unload equipment for a fair price and use the proceeds to buy new. IMHO, an unnecessary and potentially damaging business decision by Sumiko. |
Jeffkad - just to be clear, this policy has been in place for many years and that notice has been posted on Audiogon for many years. This is not a new policy. This policy came into place because of unethical and what is probably even illegal activity by sellers on this website. Anyone who has done a search on Sonus Faber speakers over the last several years should have seen the notice. It is pretty obvious. The notice is hard to miss. Sonus Faber SearchThere is a healthy used market for SF here on Audigon, even with this policy in place. Again, if you want to purchase a used SF speaker, get the serial number and confirm with Sumiko if they will sell replacement parts. If you are buying new, keep the receipt (which you should do anyway), and, if you sell it, provide a copy to the new owner and explain the situation. If you really object to this policy just buy another brand. If you want to buy SF, then just follow the procedure. It is not that hard. |
What reason was there for your Vienna drivers failing in such a short period of time?? My point is that I can see a tube amp manufacturer or a digital device manufacturer be concerned about infant mortality in their product, but a speaker manufacturer...............?
Janeb (System | Threads | Answers | This Thread) They're made by human beings. Even if they were made by robots, they too are made by humans. A poorly glued voice coil can come loose. A person or a robot can't see what is going on in between the parts being made. The same for a poor solder joint that may look perfect. Years back, I beleive the Space Shuttle lost its main computer system. It had NASA on edge for a short time, but a backup system worked. I think they traced it to a microscopic stray piece of solder in a component. They had no idea it was there during testing, and figured it broke free and shorted the system from the vibration (during takeoff), going by memory. Speakers vibrate a lot too. That's what a warranty is good for. Over driving them could cause a failure too. But, I think the manufacturer could see this, if they disassembled the parts. |
"The notice is hard to miss.
Yet so many people have. And what about craigslist? Before an authorized purchase takes place, is the prospective buyer asked to sign off on this policy? When this policy was enacted, were the authorized owners of every Sonus Faber speaker warned not to lose his receipts, and that the resaleability of their speakers was being diminished. Were these owners compensated.
When I buy a new car, the potential resale price of a model is always part of the negotiation. In fact, I consider that one of the most important factors in my decision. If the resale value of my car hits the skids due to a new policy, I want to be compensated. |
Janeb:
I couldn't tell you why the driver failed. My knowledge base is not at that level. But I can say that that I run the speakers at what could be considered, at minimum, normal use -- -20db to -30db -- on a Denon AVR 3808CI, based upon the Denon display information. (I know folks with similar setups -- Vienna Acoustics/Denon -- who say that they run their Denons toward the 0db or -10db levels). Right now I'm listening to Miles Davis' "Nefertiti" at -30db. I can also say that when I called the dealer to report the issue he was not as confounded. He just apologized and said that it happens and ordered the new driver.
However, I did think of something that might give you perspective. Sometimes when I hear something in a different context, it helps me get perspective. The following may provide you additional perspective. Based upon your comments, it appears that you believe speaker drivers should have a 0% failure rate. As good as you seem to think drivers are, do you believe a 0% failure rate can be expected? Additionally, I would also wonder why Sumiko would have replacement drivers in inventory if they are never expected to fail.
Hope this helps. Thanks for your comments. |
Musicpod and Hifhvn, it is NOT that I believe that speaker driver's have a ZERO failure potential. Instead, I am saying that of all components that are delivered new to a consumer in our hobby; I would say that speaker drivers are on the VERY low side of the infant mortality curve. Certainly very low compared to tube components as an example. Therefore, the risk to a consumer of warranty issues is IMO far, far less with this type of component. I guess YMMV. |
Janeb, just curious why you have this picture in your system link? |
Hifihvn, to answer your question, because that's my TT...can I ask you a question.... how come YOU have NO system link? |
12-08-11: Janeb
Hifihvn, to answer your question, because that's my TT...can I ask you a question.... how come YOU have NO system link?
Janeb (System | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
Privacy. |
It's nice of you to loan your speakers out for pictures too. Have a nice day. |
Hifihvn,--- "he, who lives in glass houses" |
I told you it was nice of you to loan your gear out. It's nice of you to loan them your carpet for the pictures too. Do all the members in your past threads here get threats from you? Don't answer. I read some. Again, have a nice day. |
Hifihvn, I think it is you who should have a nice day...
You seem to be a little "uptight"....makes sense since I said:"he who lives in glass houses". |
Lets see, a lot of big skylights, you throwing rocks....Hmmm. That's illegal! Enjoy that state of the art Pioneer DV 414 player. After all, it is almost as good as your close to $700,000 system. |
Hifihv, I said 'he, who lives in glass houses" referring to you, my friend.
You wish for 'privacy' which is why you don't post a system.....Sure.
The Pioneer in that thread belonged to a friend, which IF you bothered to read the thread is exactly what it said.
I'm done responding to you...you have a nice day. |
I'm done responding to you...you have a nice day.
Janeb (System | Threads | Answers | This Thread) Thank you. I will. |
Does anybody know if Sumiko has changed this policy?
I bought a pair of used SF Concertos at Audiogon around 2001. About 4 years later, one tweeter started to produce noise. Through my local dealer, I contacted Sumiko and they were nice to repair it (with my paying the cost, of course). I can't explain exactly what the problem was, but they replaced the crossover. About 4 years after the initial repair, the same problem occured again. This time, Sumiko wouldn't repair it because they couldn't find the record of the original sale. I tried to contact the seller from 8 years earlier, but couldn't reach her. I can't play or sell them, so I am forced to permanently retire them in the closet. The argument like "Sumiko told us the policy" or "Speakers don't break" apply to my case (they once serviced it!!!). In addition to my ~1K expense, the original labor and materials for crafting these gorgeous speakers have been wasted. It is a shame.
Alternatively, if there is any third-party service that could repair these speakers, please let me know. Thank you. |
Should have read...
The argument like "Sumiko told us the policy" or "Speakers don't break" DOES NOT apply to my case |
I bought a pair of new Electa Amator II speakers about 7 years ago, and still love them. I purchased them directly over the internet from a high-end audio shop in Milan, which was happy to ship them to me in the states. They arrived in pristine, unopened condition.
But now this attitude of Sumiko's is outrageous, arrogant, and unacceptable. Sonus Faber should be happy customers for their products are excited, dedicated, and exist in any and all ways. I see these threatening Sumiko ads, and they disgust me. I have another system with Epos speakers that pleases me just as much, and this company is now my future. Goodbye Sonus Faber and your U.S. distributor with a serious attitude problem. |
Naxos41, pick up the phone and call Sonus faber directly in Italy and explain your situation.I have done so on three different occasions and each time Sf fixed the problem - no questions asked.I don't live in the US and had purchased from an authorised dealer in my country, but he and the distributor were so slow in making an effort to sort out my problem(s) I got frustrated and made the calls.It was a while ago when Franko Serblin was still there.In one of the instances the CEO at the time, Cesare Bevalaqua attended to the problem himself as he was the one who picked up the phone.Once we got past the language barrier they couldn't have been more helpful.
Good luck. |
Seems like this policy will kill SF resale value, and thus kill initial sales. I will no longer consider SF because if I ever want to sell them, nobody will pay much for them due to this policy. |
Mtrot, You may be right, and while Sumiko's policy sort of sucks, I think folks who buy really high end stuff that costs mucho dollars in the first place really arn't thinking much of resale value. That is an affliction of the poor(er) who rarely buy pricy speakers! :-) |
Im surprised that some speaker savante hasnt made a good business for himself specializing in the repair of Sonus Fabers bastards.
Im sorry if this is insensitive - I really do feel for you Naxos41 - but I have to ask. Just on principal, why would any member of this community purchase any Sumiko product? |
If the speakers are dead, send the tweeter to Orange County Speaker for possible repair. Or, ask Madisound for a clone or alternative replacement. I would not hesitate to get a similar spec tweeter with more wpc rating if it blew. It may be crossed over too low. Jallen |
We can service them although we are not authorized to do so and we are not in business to service other brands it is however fairly easy to service replace parts on SF!
We've used similar drivers in dc10audio for several years and even have some old stock in like drivers we have also repaired damaged SF cabinets as we have a similar cabinet construction method.
Please be advised that service/repairs and shipping is expensive.
SF still remains one of the most exciting loudspeakers made even if they have a problem with the distributor. :)) |
Wow,,, I revived this tread.
Jallen
I contacted Orange County Speaker after Sumiko refused the service. They said no. In fact, as I recall, the person who replied my inquiry basically wrote to me "Sonus Faber, what's that?".
Quadman
Should I contact you at dc10audio? I saw your website. Looks great.
Smit
I appreciate your advice. I think I will try dc10audio first, meanwhile, I will learn how to say "I can't speak your language, but please help me" in Italian. :)
Newbee
Your argument may fly, if SF is exclusively into expensive stuffs. The fact is, their speakers were being sold at Tweeters!!! |
Quadman
I sent a message through your website. Hope to speak with you soon. |
Yes, here i sit in a quad rum because i live here in Italy, but soon to return to the states. I purchased a pair of Cremona M from a local dealer here, but later to find out Sumiko will not honor the warranty even though they are legit with serial number. Ok, fine, i suck it up and hope nothing goes wrong with them. Local dealer here will honor warranty, but i would need to return them here for repair. Now, i see a pair of Stradivari selling for a ridiculous price of $19,000 used on audiogon. Seems legit, good seller reviews and seems honorable when i speak to him. He states he will allow a trade in of my Cremonas for the Stradivari, great. Now i return to the original problem, what happens if something goes wrong. These are 3-4 year old speakers, one owner, but still. I am still paying a substantial amount of money for these. What to do??? |
