@kota1 

I have no issue with your enthusiasm for the latest technology but the way you go about it is more than a bit over the top. If you approached these threads of yours more from a perspective of wanting to share your enthusiasm about something you've discovered, rather than "schooling us", you might elicit more positive responses. Just my 2 cents. 

@jeffrey125

Thanks for posting this and streamers are the aapl target market. Lossless doesn’t work on bluetooth or wireless streaming. AAPL spatial audio does and works with all of their products. Look at all these devices that are backward compatible.

Who can compete with this lineup? Its the "kids" on tiktok that are going to be making content in spatial audio and their followers consuming it on bluetooth.The gaming market is taking notice (mostly kids right) and X-Box is atmos compatible and Sony PlayStation just joined the party. This is the "mass market" adopting which gives me a bit of a smile. Movies and music of course. Movie theaters have atmos movies, they are live streaming atmos concerts , using atmos at live shows in vegas. This is all backward compatible with the streaming market. The people dragging their heels kicking and screaming? Uhhhh, let’s just say "traditionalists":

@stuartk

Noted, thanks. The idea of spending $$$$ on channel based audio and 0 on object based audio (which is growing beyond all expectations according to AAPL) is simply unfathomable to me when more than likely members already have access to the content through their current streaming service.

Really need an ignore feature like WBF has.

Such a condescending post. These kids that live on their phones could care less about your "Spatial Audio"  they care about conveniences and portability. They also simply do not have the space for such an obtrusive system. I would never. 

Atmos will go they way of Quadraphonic and 5.1. 

Any real audiophile is not using Bluetoot. Could care less about backwards compatibility. Yep you are smiling just like those Laserdisc adapters back in the 80's and 90s.   

 Lossless doesn’t work on bluetooth or wireless streaming. AAPL spatial audio does and works with all of their products. Look at all these devices that are backward compatible.

This is the "mass market" adopting which gives me a bit of a smile. 

the masses

The general population, especially the common or low-class portion thereof. Usually used to deride those seen ashaving unrefined tastes 
or intelligence.

And this makes you smile? Going for the lowest common denominator? I'll say it again: this is the cruelest joke ever perpetrated on A'gon. Providing links to ad copy promoting solutions looking for a problem is an old tactic. Like one idiot said of the people who adored him, "I love the poorly educated."

All the best,
Nonoise

@jeffrey125

Any real audiophile is not using Bluetoot.

That is exactly why atmos is growing so quickly, if you were aapl and had to present a business model to the shareholders would you want to include as many AAPL customers as possible or eliminate every customer that isn’t an audiophile? You can consume atmos music as you choose (yes, it works with two speakers, you don’t need to buy more). BTW, this album is fantastic in atmos:

I have no issue with your enthusiasm for the latest technology but the way you go about it is more than a bit over the top. If you approached these threads of yours more from a perspective of wanting to share your enthusiasm about something you've discovered, rather than "schooling us", you might elicit more positive responses. Just my 2 cents. 

While I agree @kota1's enthusiasm is a bit over the top, you have no obligation to click on his topics. This topic is frankly far more interesting and will have far greater impact on audiophiles than any number of threads I can currently see eating bandwidth.

Really need an ignore feature like WBF has.

It exists already. It is called self control.

These kids that live on their phones could care less about your "Spatial Audio"  they care about conveniences and portability. They also simply do not have the space for such an obtrusive system. I would never. 

Atmos will go they way of Quadraphonic and 5.1. 

Any real audiophile is not using Bluetoot. Could care less about backwards compatibility. Yep you are smiling just like those Laserdisc adapters back in the 80's and 90s.   

Headphones can deliver spatial audio. You don't need a huge multi-channel system. Based on what these kids are listening too, ATMOS and other spatial audio is already taking off. It costs them nothing and can provide a better experience. Of course they are going to use and listen to it. As the mastering gets better, they won't go back to flat 2-channel.

Aptx Lossless for Bluetooth can do CD quality and higher. LDAC for Bluetooth can as well. Bluetooth in 2023 can do audiophile. Products will start to build it in. What makes an audiophile real or fake?

The point of this thread is if you are spending money on audio, allocate some budget to object based audio. The content producers are "future proofing" their music while producing a more engaging experience for fans. Why not "future proof" your MLP? See:

Dolby Atmos allows music labels and publishers to future-proof their music while providing a new listening experience to fans. In the past, new music tech was locked behind proprietary formats like DVD-A and SACD. It made listening to new music tech a chore, since these formats barely lasted the decade which they were introduced. Dolby Atmos has become ubiquitous among the music industry, not least of all thanks to Apple Music support. Many artists and IP owners are rushing to get their music mixed and remastered in this new format.

Dolby Atmos music boosts listener engagement and can help refresh or revitalize an older catalog. It’s also satisfying to listen to for audiophiles because you can hear the difference between instrument clarity and separation in the mix.

See:

Mixing and Mastering in Dolby Atmos-What You Should Know

How many posts do you have responding to @kota1 on this? 7? 8?  All attempting to shoot down spatial audio. To what end?  This is the pot calling the kettle black. You are not the target market for ATMOS. It is not targeted to people set in their ways and looking for reasons not to change .

Nope. What I take issue is, is with his overbearing and pushy attitude. As for you, I see you joined on 7/11/23 and noticed you have the same cantankerous manner as one particular member who's been banned many times but yet continues to resurface under different handles. I hope it's not you, again.

All the best,
Nonoise

All I am going to say is I will not even give Atmos a sniff due to the resident spokesman's overzealous wagon peddling here.  This is truly a modern example of a snake oil salesmen. If Dolby Labs is paying him it is not in gear, must be beer. 

I don’t see the need for disagreement. I never stated that one format is better (although certain mixes can be better). My OP is simply to budget for both formats. You can get a great 2 channel preamp for about $2500. You can get a great processor capable of atmos for about the same price. If you choose to buy a 2 ch preamp for 100% of your budget or a processor for 100% of your budget you won’t see me chastising you for your choices.

I will say that ALL atmos capable processors can do two channel so consider that when budgeting. I didn’t "need" to budget for a 2 channel preamp at all, I did so because the additional features complimented my system.

If you setup your room for Atmos it is pretty straight forward as Dolby has laid out the specs. If you use the same specs at home as they do in the studio you will probably get a similar experience. Here is a thread for setting up your room:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/how-to-setup-your-room-for-atmos-and-immersive-audio

If you are budgeting for an all in one 2 ch/atmos system and want to save $ and space check this thread:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/speaker-selection-strategies-for-atmos-music

When it comes to budgeting for an Atmos capable processor I would carefully consider the FEATURES you need. Sometimes the difference between a flagship processor in a companies lineup and the next model down are the features rather than the sound quality. Why pay for a 16 channel processor if your room is maxed out at 9?

@nonoise :

As for you, I see you joined on 7/11/23 and noticed you have the same cantankerous manner as one particular member who's been banned many times but yet continues to resurface under different handles. I hope it's not you, again.

I believe you are talking about the famous Cin Dyment. With his 20+ usernames all banned here. The famous dude in all audio forums there are including all Facebook audio groups.

While it did cross my mind, and I thought the same, I am still not sure it’s the same dude. Something does not sound right to place Cin Dyment’s signature on this guy’s posts, although the same rhetoric. Time will tell…

@thyname,

Time will tell....

All the best,
Nonoise

I haven’t posted much about budgeting for receivers as they change so quickly. The general rule is the model that is about one level down from the flagship is usually the best bang for the buck. I think if you are more into movies a receiver is fine. There are some really high priced receivers that are billed as being able to do two channel very well. Personally I prefer active speakers and a good processor. I do have a man cave outfitted with nice 9 channel Onkyo receiver and some JBL speakers. It is nice for movies and casual listening actually very good and for the money it cost fantastic bang for the buck. But I can’t see it as more than a good "entertainment" system and I prefer to do critical listening in my media room.

As for these new separate 9 and 11 channel amps, they might be great but it makes you wonder how a single power supply can swing all those channels. With 2 or 5 channel amps you need a rack of them. With active speakers that are internally biamped, active crossovers, and an all in one system designed by the engineer has so many advantages from a SQ perspective as well as a price advantage.

@britamerican

ATMOS and other spatial audio is already taking off. It costs them nothing and can provide a better experience. Of course they are going to use and listen to it. As the mastering gets better, they won’t go back to flat 2-channel.

The mad irony of your astute observation are the people who are complaining the most (at least in this thread) are the people who spent a LOT of money for that flat 2-channel. Rather than embrace the change and the mad rush of new adopters of atmos/spatial audio (over 80% of all apple music subscribers have tried it and its growing according to AAPL) and finally getting better quality audio they condemn it. I will give them the benefit of the doubt that they properly auditioned it in their own system.

 I will give them the benefit of the doubt that they properly auditioned it in their own system.

Gosh, your benevolence is overwhelming. What a thankless burden your superior audio wisdom must be.

"More than 80% of Apple Music subscribers listen to spatial audio"

While I applaud the OP’s enthusiasm and positive demeanor, I’m still scratching my head. A few points I would like to make ...

Being an audiophile has never been about winning the popularity contest. Whether it’s our choice of music, equipment, or room setup, audiophiles always have and always will be a niche group that does not represent the broader music industry in any shape or form. Throwing around metrics about apple, etc. is kinda useless and not relevant to this crowd.

Unlike what the OP thinks, many of us started with multi-channel systems and have come to prefer two-channel audio, despite its supposed weaknesses. Not everyone is looking for an immersive experience where you’re in the middle of all the action. So the assumption that most audiophiles don’t know what they’re missing vis-a-vis multi-channel (with or without atmos) is rather naive. We tried it, many of us still have it in our home theater systems ... and we still prefer two-channel. My nephew is big into spatial audio (headphones) and I’ve tried listening to it several times. Yes, it is different and enjoyable but not something I would like to listen to for hours at a stretch. Perhaps that might change as more artists convert their recordings to spatial.

As far as allocating budget goes, it is a very personal decision. Some of us want to invest in one system and take it as far as we can. For example, if I have $1000, I will build the best 2-channel system for $1000. If I have $50,000, I will build the best $50,000 2-channel system I can for $50,000. It’s all about your priorities. Telling people how they should allocate their budgets will always make you look like a pushy know-it-all, hence the pushback from some members.

Interesting interview of Bon Ludwig in Stereophile.

 https://www.stereophile.com/content/bob-ludwig151the-mastering-master-bids-farewell-part-2 

Not an Atmos fan:

”What is it about Atmos—Apple's version at least—that Bob doesn't like? First there's the fact that it is a lossy-compressed format, akin to (though more sophisticated than) MP3 or ACC. "With Atmos, we're going back to a lossy world. ... It screws up the sound in so many strange ways."

Also, "There is no way to remotely guarantee how the listener is going to listen to it." That's a big part of the point of Apple's Atmos. It could be via a pair of Apple's Atmos-supporting earbuds, or a smart-speaker gadget that throws sound around a room, or a real-deal immersive listening space with speakers around the room and on the ceiling. "When it's done really right in a great system, it's impressive. It’s still not lossless high-res, but it can be impressive. But, that is few and far between."

In the case of a hybrid SACD, there is usually a 2-channel stereo layer with its own discrete stereo mix. No such layer exists in the "immersive" formats, including Atmos. Instead, a "binaural" version is "folded down," derived from the multi-channel mix.”

For me, it doesn’t really matter.  I listen to vinyl about 95% when critical listening.  I find that the optimal amount of single malt scotch - not too much, not too little - maximizes the immersive experience!

Bob prefers MQA, that’s OK too. He auditioned and compared fairly, its all good:

https://youtu.be/1iF9_3DLEbk?feature=shared

ATMOS can be supported uncompressed with Dolby TrudHD. It seems that Bob is behind the times, like MQA.

Frank Zappa "Over Night Sensation" lossless  Dolby Atmos release is on pre-order, can't wait until it drops:

https://www.zappa.com/over-nite-sensation/#/

For an alternative view:

https://youtu.be/8fwMneAnfyc?si=jvuAllK-GleUQZPT

This guy argues, well he makes several points but a main one being that Atmos is about gatekeeping. I agree with him that much of this is about the Benjamins: what new gimmick can we come up with to extract more profit from the public.

As for the “immersive” experience, I’m already getting it from two channels and a strategically placed sub. I’ve had visitors who have come to my place, listen to my audio system for the first time, and walk out with tears in their eyes, saying that my system sounds better than being at a live concert, it is the most acoustically dimensional audio system that they have ever heard.

Sorry but with what I’ve got, and at my age, if I’m making another audio move, if anything I’m downsizing from here. But for now, I’m more than happy with what I’ve got. 
 

https://www.theaudioatticvinylsundays.com/

I saw the video when the engineer said he didn’t get the economics. I can’t say I have any data but I do understand the business model. Spotify has the largest market share. AAPL wants to take market share by offering something different, that is backward compatible with all of its products, that works with bluetooth or wireless, and that its customers can notice an improvement. Lossless doesn’t work on some bluetooth or wireless connections, spatial audio does. Users don’t get charged for the new format, aapl eats it in the hope of luring customers from competitors. Remember, aapl isn’t just apple music, its an ecosystem and they wanna crossell you phones, headphones, the works.
The musicians and labels get paid evertime you stream a song and if a new format gets more plays its a win.

The engineer gets new business from updating old recordings and recording new music in atmos.

Dolby collects licesning fees to profit from the R&D they did to develop it.

I can’t believe this engineer can’t connect the dots.

See:

https://appleinsider.com/articles/23/01/29/why-spatial-audio-is-the-future-of-the-music-industry-even-if-you-hate-it

As far as the audio engineer community and atmos that ship has sailed, see:

https://aes2.org/events-calendar/2023-aes-international-conference-on-spatial-and-immersive-audio/

Sounds like a gimmick to me. When you listen to live music the musicians are in front of you not all around you. Sounds like a gatekeeping money grab to me.

@invalid like Quadraphonic sound LOL. 

Why do you guys feed the troll?

@ozzy62 ,

+10

9 x Grammy winner mix engineer Manny Marroquin at Larrabee Studios:

"Anyone I play atmos for, it changes their mindset, man that was the most amazing thing I heard"

https://youtu.be/JmQN477uSbE?feature=shared

Interesting that you don’t need a big space to get great sound, notice the wide channels wall mounted to the far left and right amd the height channels mounted above:

@facten

@kota1 - "Why would I want to BUY multiple sources, dacs, and preamps today that will be boat anchors within five years?"

What hi-end manufacturers are you seeing divorcing themselves from 2 channel audio that this is going to be the case?

(This is a more appropriate thread to continue this topic so I moved my reply.)

The answer is Sound United, as they were just acquired by Medical Supplier Masimo, Harmon Kardon was acquired by Samsung, and the "high end " industry is being replaced by mobile headphone listeners and home theater, by far.

Atmos is backward compatible with headphones, cars, TV’s, and every variation of speaker setup you want want, from soundbars, a pair of speakers, five speakers, seven speakers, sixteen, etc. Atmos is being streamed online in video and audio, live TV broadcasts, in movie theaters and live performances. Don’t get me started on gaming and VR but you can look it up.

Do you remember what the iphone did to the blackberry? When apple adopted spatial audio it changed the music industry forever, I am not investing $$$ into what I perceive as an audio version of the blackberry.

Next question?

@kota1 that tells me all I need to know.

@invalid 

Congratulations on your 1001 post!  Thanks for your feedback.

I own an old slap phone from 15 years ago....

I hate phone...( yes i need them and appreciate them as a mere TOOL not a toy)

😊

But even a dinosaurus know that it is not necessary to own more than a very good headphone and BACCH filters to enjoy 3-D music...

I apologize to repeat this as an alternative much less costlier proposition for 3-D audio experience... With then minimal connections no new one added and minimal number of components then no new one added and lower noise floor then and a cherry on the cake no timbre distorsions/ modifications as in some other DSP...

Who claim more is better ?

Do not blow all your money on HT. Ive been using my Yamaha receiver since 2000 and its been awesome.  Would buy a Emotiva HT receiver should the Yamaha fail.

Wow ,the way this new format is “ blowin up” maybe we should petition the owners or mods of Audiogon for a name change for the site. We could have a contest to see who comes up with the best new name, Im all for “Atmosbegon” whatta ya think? We need to act fast though,we don’t want to be caught with our pants down…… oh wait, nobody here really cares about current consumer electronics trends ………. Never mind.

This thread isn’t about good, better, best, its about budgeting. I know you can build a great system for less than $1000, right @mahgister ? You can budget for a system that fits your lifestyle and decor right @bikeboy52?

​​@webking185 is 100% correct when he says don’t blow 100% of your budget on home theater. You shouldn’t blow 100% of it on stereo either.

What I am saying is there are companies that spent buku bucks on the blackberry infrastructure and all of their execs carried one in 2003. Why would you spend 100% of your budget on stereo when apple is doing to apple music and spatial audio what they did with the iphone when it crushed the blackberry, motorola, etc? Who is going to stop amazon and apple combined? Five years later those companies that invested heavily in blackberry, poof, they never recouped their investment and had to start over with apple or android. I LOVE two channel stereo BUT don’t own a TT or any records. It makes a difference in how I budget right? I do subscribe to Tidal, Amazon Music, Prime Video, Vudu and Netflix. I do own lossless bluerays of both music and movies with atmos soundtracks. It makes a big difference in how I budget. The only WRONG way to budget is the ostrich method, which is obviously prevalent when I see some of these posts.

Who is the atmos market? Young people (including males and females) with phones and earbuds listening with bluetooth and wireless. Gamers and VR enthusiasts. Owners of home theaters atmos comes in all budgets from soundbars to $1,000,000 custom built home theaters. Movie goers. Audiophiles who own multichannel preamps.

Who is the "audiophile" market? Baby boomers with disposable income that are predominantly male. Who else is buying stereos that cost over $20K? A very, very, small population.

Can you see why you should diversify your audio budget?

And the broken record just keeps on playing...

Again,what? budget? What other people are doing? Who gives a rip? And btw Kota  . The in the know younguns and hipsters don’t use LOL anymore. Thats strictly for grandad nowadays, try to keep up.

So, you wanna have it ALL right? Start with a MCH preamp (must have XLR outputs and decode atmos) from Marantz, Mcintosh, Anthem, Arcam, Rotel, etc. (Keep the two channel preamp you likely already have, this isn’t an either or system).

Speakers, easy peasy. Start with two and then add on as you like.

BUT, what do you do about an amp? Keep it simple, able to expand with your system as you add channels, and able to do high quality music. I recommend going with monoblocks.

Check out monoblocks from Emotiva, Van Alstine, Nuprime, Parasound and Anthem. If you are a tube fan Carver, Black Ice Audio,and Allnic offer monoblocks.

And the broken record just keeps on playing...

and hipsters don’t use LOL anymore

I don’t have a TT, 😎 LOL

This is the biggest putsch by the Philistines ever.

+1, great album: