Do NOT Blow Your Entire Budget on Two Channel Audio
Yes, two channel audio is here, and is not going away. However, object based audio is delightful, widely available on Tidal and Apple Music, and should be in the listening room of every music lover on the planet, not just "audiophiles. If you plan to be a music fan a year from now start building your object based audio system today. You will need:
1) A receiver/processor capable of Dolby Atmos.
2) A subscription to Tidal or Apple music.
3) A Firestick, ATV, or Nvidia Shield.
4) A minimum of 7 timber matched speakers and a subwoofer.
Once you experienced stereo would you ever go back to only mono? No, you would build a system capable of either mono or stereo. Now that object based audio has arrived do the same thing. Build a system capable of mono, stereo, AND object based audio. When Elton John heard Rocket Man in an object based format for the first time why did he demand to convert his entire catalog to Atmos? If you don’t know, then you need to go listen to Rocket Man in a good Atmos setup ASAP.
So, take your budget, DIVERSIFY, and get a good Atmos capable receiver or processor. Object based audio is NOT last decades surround sound or home theater. It is for MUSIC first, if you need a recommendation on how to allocate your budget feel free to post a question. Most importantly, you don’t NEED two systems, one for music and one for movies. A good object based audio system can play two channel music just fine. A two channel system on the other hand can’t play object based audio without a proper processor or receiver.
Greg Penny talks mixing Rocket Man in Atmos.
https://youtu.be/ggzfcUKDqdo?feature=shared
@kota1 " The answer is Sound United, as they were just acquired by Medical Supplier Masimo, Harmon Kardon was acquired by Samsung." Your view of what the high end manufacturers are and my view is vastly different. Tell me when the high end starts moving to Atmos because what you have stated throughout your post above has zero to do with the high end |
IDK what you mean about "high end"? Do you mean "boutique" brands with sales of less than $10MM a year? Do you realize that Sound United is an umbrella for brands like B&W speakers and Harman includes JBL Synthesis and Revel??? OK, so both Harman/JBL Synthesis have moved to Atmos: https://youtu.be/V3K7GF7tz4Q?feature=shared Sound United/Marantz/B&W: https://youtu.be/JYOc2mcGOi0?feature=shared Mcintosh: https://youtu.be/EEzgbs88jlU?feature=shared
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By "high end do you mean: Wilson Audio Atmos: https://www.wilsonaudio.com/products/alida/alida Bryston: Kef: |
High End sound means "natural Timbre " first... ( then optimal dynamic and transient, optimal balanced sound etc are necessary for this because timbre is a "musical" concept and an acoustic one not a DSP one ) .... Then it means 3-D holographical imaging, soundstaging ... ( BACCH filters does not degrade "timbre" and for that are my choice ) Two speakers or an headphone is enough...No supplementary cost... Kota gives much interesting information thanks to him but is biased toward unnecessary tools and a bit provocative... I am a bit too myself sometimes then i will not advise him about that... 😊
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Sound United umbrella is largely a mix bag of low to mid fi brands targeted to mass market. What high end 2 channel , non-mass market brands are walking away from 2 channel audio? I can’t think of one. You picked Wilson - well read Wilson Audio’s statement about the linked product- new cinematic experiences await those who choose the latest Dolby® systems. Alida is ready. Cinematic is the key word Wilson isn’t targeting this towards their music customer base.Since you selected them, has Bryston announced that they are moving away from 2 channel? No! Has Kef? No! Are they providing a product for those with home theaters and maybe also listen to music via that Yes! I don’t begrudge anyone their enjoyment of Atmos and it’s future may be bright time will tell. But telling folks that everything 2 channel will be a boat anchor in 5 years , maybe amongst the low -mid fi, not happening in the high end. As the saying goes we'll agree to disagree on this specific. |
Look this Kota person is not here to spread knowledge, share insights, or to convert the masses to this Atmos format. His entire agenda now is just to be an obnoxious little peckerwood, like an Alabama fan. The best thing to do is ignore this little peckerwood, he is envious and will always be a lo-fi, mass market kind of guy. A picture speaks a thousand words. He should grab a few of these other like minded folks and start their own forum. Total street preachers. |
There is a market for any consumers demand... One market does not replace the others... Most high end consumers and music listener invest less time in movies and more in music... ( anyway how many non stupid movies comes from Hollywood ? Some not many ) I listen any non american movies when i listened to one, at least doing so i learn at least something about other cultures... And i am tired of Hollywood pastiches... Spectacular CGI matter less for me than intelligent content , then in audio as in movie, I prefer music to sound at the end... I invested way more in books and music than in movies... I dont need atmos for movies and for music only 2 speakers or one headphone is needed... I am a dinosaurus... My only phone is a flapping one from 15 years ago with almost no screen and almost no computing abilities... ( phone are useful read me right but i hate them more than i use them ) 😊
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That is a great reply, thank you, it is clear that even high end manufacturers like Wilson are partnering with Dolby Atmos market because customers want it. When I refer to boat anchors in five years I am referring to DAC’s and products that use semiconductors. A $5000 dac five years ago is very close to a boat anchor compared to what a $500 dac can get you today. Digital preamps/processors that include dac’s are a GREAT topic re: budgeting. The Marantz 8805 that was $5K five years ago dropped in price as soon as the 8805A with 8K HDMI came out and dropped again when the 16 channel AV10 came out. If you don’t need 8K and/or 16 channels its going for about half of what it would 5 years ago. You can apply that same strategy with a digital two channel preamp/dac. I love the strategy of getting a processor that is one level down from the flagship and a two channel preamp with HT bypass for about the same price as one flagship unit (either MCH or 2CH). |
You mix things...😊 Blackberry and Iphone it is phone MASS market : the same market...
Cd and streaming or ripping etc: it is MASS music files market : the same market...
Audiophiles are not defined by being MERELY in the mass market... These two are different targetting market... For sure technology is evolving which IMPLIED some mid level convergence between mass market and audiophile market ... The mass market audio becoming more "audiophile" by the technological improvement progress and the audiophiles market becoming less costlier for the same reason... But these two market the mass market and the audiophile market will stay distinct for the decades to come... Why ? Because music is not sound, and sound is not music ; even if they are not separable they are very distinctive... Then one market does not replace the other they COEXIST for different goal and different reasons... Then we are not all designed by our audio history and taste from the same "plaster mold"... We are all different and a solution for one is an impediment for another one... I own no iphone... 😊
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And they said the same about the LP: Cut and paste yes but these are the industry facts. CD sales in the US for 2021 increased for the first time in almost two decades, according to data published by the Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA). Shipments rose from 31.6 million in 2020 to 46.6 million in 2021, and revenue from the format rose from $483.2 million to $584.2 million. The RIAA’s numbers corroborate a similar report from MRC Data published earlier this year. Although CD sales are still far from their 2000 peak — when almost a billion CD albums were shipped in the US — Axios notes that the increase is another key element of the resurgence in physical music. Vinyl sales have been steadily increasing for over a decade-and-a-half now, and hit 39.7 million units in the US in 2021, bringing in $1 billion in revenue.
Global sales of vinyl, CDs and other physical formats increased 4% in 2022, accounting for $4.6 billion of the $26.2 billion worldwide music market, according to the International Federation of the Phonographic Industry’s Global Music Report 2023.Mar 18, 2023
CD sales in the US for 2021 increased for the first time in almost two decades, according to data published by the Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA). Shipments rose from 31.6 million in 2020 to 46.6 million in 2021, and revenue from the format rose from $483.2 million to $584.2 million. Mar 14, 2022
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This is a head scratcher. The OP is trying to convince us to spend significant time and resources on “immersion” to audiophiles interested in “higher fidelity”, 2 completely different targets and experiences that is not related besides both being in audio. I like driving my car which doesn’t mean I’d be willing to put time and effort into drifting, drag racing, etc. Many moons ago during my partying days, a bit of alcohol, flashing lights, loud music, on a disco dance floor - “immersion”. In my main system, I’m after a clear window - neutral, linear. I want to hear a piano sound like a real live piano which is difficult to reproduce. I want to hear crystalline highs, a deep articulate bass, etc. My second system is high efficiency for flea watt amplifiers to hear that midrange magic. My goal as with most audiophiles is “fidelity” - better sonics than offered in the mainstream market. Seems either the OP is disconnected/oblivious with what audiophiles seek or simply a troll. With over 2k postings the first possibility seems unlikely so… I also highly expect the OP is trying to make himself “feel better” that he chose immersion over fidelity likely because of his unwillingness to pursue audiophile goals which can be costly. |
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@kota1 Personally, i wouldn’t just stream tidal/qobuz, etc, i.e. rent music and call it good. For example, I use my Qobuz subscription to discover new music. But, any album i discover/like, I buy it off Qobuz for permanent ownership. The Qobuz sublime subscription gives you 50 to 60% on so many hires official studio masters and it can be had for 7 or 8 bucks a pop. A freaking steal is what it is...😁 when you consider how much vinyl or a cd costs. Vinyl plastic dudes will want that pristine sounding official studio master botched so they can press it on vinyl and spin it. CD dudes may do the same with their redbook CDs. The latter is a stupid thing to do (as you can imagine), when you can have the unbotched official studio masters for way cheaper these days. But, ya can’t ever fix the the dummins (no point in saying anything at all). Anyways, I download these hires masters, keep them in my NAS and permanently own them!! I like it that way!!
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You have an excellent, excellent point! But, any album i discover/like, I buy it off Qobuz for permanent ownership. You are right for so many different reasons but first of all is quality. I built a media server last year using a NAS and have been filling it with ripped bluerays of all ttpes, concerts, movies, atmos, DD,DTS, etc. I started a thread here asking for ways to buy ripped music on thumb drives, hard drives, etc. My atmos blueray of Rober Waters the Wall and Kraftwerl 3D: The Concert blow away any streamed content you can get. I have my ripped music files on it too. The Qobuz sublime subscription gives you 50 to 60% on so many hires official studio masters and it can be had for 7 or 8 bucks a pop. I tried Quboz years ago abd it sounded bright to me, maybe its time to try again, thanks. Anyways, I download these hires masters, keep them in my NAS and permanently own them!! I like it that way!! Totally agree, I found an incredible bang for the buck media player by Zidoo on Amazon called the Pro10. This is the same company that makes the Eversolo streamers. They have released a new one for about a grand and I am contemplating pulling the trigger, check out: https://www.zidoo.tv/Product/index/model/UHD5000/target/SGlS2hlXYyJKKmVViAFMcQ%3D%3D.html
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That is interesting, I definitely like the two channel only systems I have around the house. My favorite one isn't even for critical listening, just a pair of DefTech Wireless active/streaming speakers. All I did was plug them in, connect to wireless and start streaming with the playfi app. They sound so much bigger than their miniscule size. I have the beginnings of a headphone system. I dropped Sony's Signature preamp/dac/headphone amp into my main rig so I have a pure two channel path for stereo. It has every type of headphone connection imaginable but I haven't purchased the matching Sony Signature headphones yet. It works great with my other cans though. If you want to post about your TV video surround system it would be very interesting. Have you picked a receiver/processor yet? |
Desktop audio can be very rewarding and it’s usually much more affordable than typical 2 channel audiophile systems. My initial foray into desktop audio: Laptop into xDuoo TA-30 (tube) or my Astell&Kern SP2000T (SS) DAP (digital audio player used for both desktop and portable). My headphones are Focal Clear and Audeze LCDi4. Not working on surround sound now, farthest I got was Anthem units minimum quality and Trinnov seems like the very best processor. Currently working on optimizing my Ethernet chain: audiophile switch, cables, filters - not easy to keep a lid on the costs. |
I live through the same experience :desktop audio... I did not lack anything really... I am not frustrated at all by the minimalistic system in hios acoustic corner and well embedded electrically ... My sound is immersive... I have small speakers i modified ... My main sacred audiophile system is headphone , but the small speakers are just behind it and beat all headphone i ever listened to save my K340 main audiophile system...
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I gave up listening to movies through high end receivers decades ago. I haven’t invested into a streamer or any digital device other than a transport and PW Dac. I rarely listen to digital anything. So, why not? Because for me vinyl is still king, and funny thing; Vinyl preceded all these other formats by many decades. Interesting. |
If I had to drop stereo and had a choice of Atmos or high quality mono, I'd pick mono. This new object stuff is too artificial from the demonstrations I have heard. Probably not the technology, just what has been introduced. Now, if you go back to the 60's and the research AR did on how many discrete channels it takes to actually provide a realistic 3D soundstage ( 16 if I remember) and figure out how to record them, let me know. It would also require a spec listening room which would make it useless to me even then. Still, I'd love to hear it. My HT is a 5.1. Small room so not suitable for more advanced arrangement. I don't mind the rears, but it is only a few movies where the surrounds are not fakey. Not as bad as 3D video, but not far off. All my other systems are stereo, or at least two channel as a lot of my music is R-L, not stereo. Beatles anyone? Yea, on my desk I need to play with cross-talk some. Nearfield, close boundaries. Horrible imaging. I winder what a Schiit Syn would do with a center above my monitor? I have not experienced BACCH filtering. I'm not aware of any available product or what requirements it puts on the playback system. I listen in my living room, not a special built listening room and I am not sure I want a laser tracking my head. PS: Audiophiles do have a budget. When we were young, we were poor so that set a limit. Now we are older, if we want to stay married. PPS: I did hear a reproduction, stereo, that was almost believable. If you closed your eyes, it was close enough to real it might fool some. Upright bass, 2-mic to a Revox, played back in the same room on B&W/Levenson etc. Best I have ever heard, but it was an un-mastered direct half track tape. Circa 1980, so how far have we really gotten? |
Vintage proven high quality products of the past... I bought my 1987 Sansui alpha 300 dollars , it sell over 1000 bucks, some higher models sell at many , many thiousands dollars after all this time , mine now after 35 years is always sought for , guess why ? Read his description and reviews ... My hybrid AKG K340 headphone payed 100 bucks rival any headphone i listened to and beat them...To upgrade i need a Susvara or any very costly headphone and even that i am too afraid to upgrade it because it is such good and with a completely unique holographic sound "out of the head" and i will die with it,...Or buy another one... This is my main system... Inform yourself about some products and buy it used....Simple... A flagship of the past is not necessarily obsolete...A Bugatti 1934 is not obsolete compared to a Veyron model...
Buy a pair of vintage Tannoy dual concentric gold 15 inches and install them in a designed for them acoustic room and call that your audio journey... The only costly upgrade after that it is BACCH filters 😁 But you know already that and my opinion ...😊 Price tags dont means audiophile experience; the right gear synergy in an acoustic space means audiophile experience... i am envious of no one even from those with better and costlier system than mine ... Why ? Because there is a minimal treshold of quality , a minimal or optimal one for EACH acoustic factors... When you are there you listen music in ectasy ... Upgrading appear a bit preposterous even if it is possible ...And it is...
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@kota1 "Question, can you actually buy high quality components without an exorbitant budget?" Define exorbitant for you. |
I navigated between the dead end of " cheap satisfaction" and the bottomless pit of "perfection" in sound... My real hobby was learning how to navigate it... For most people buying the right gear or trying the more pieces of gear possible is the definition of this hobby... For me this hobby after we had pick the gear is working on the way to embed it rightfully in the mechanical, acoustical and electrical dimensions...When this is well done we have music... My experiments in mechanical, electrical and acoustic embeddings of well chosen good low cost gear was my joy in learning... I thank God because if i had the money i will had bought 100,000 bucks of audio component and called it job done...Without the need to learn acoustic nor the necessary creativity to make my experiments and homemade devices...But it was that the fun and satisfying part not purchasing.. Without money i go studying and experimenting... I am done now and happy, more than if i had the 100,000 bucks audio system; because the one i had is very good but above all it is really mine, my optimization and tweaks and homemade works... My only upgrade would be the BACCH filters... But it cost 10 times my actual system... Perhaps in the future... Now i am in ectasy at each music listening and i am busy listening all music ... Audio is really based on knowledge and experiments not on price tag... Even if for sure costlier system can beat mine.... The joy of creating is greater than the joy of purchasing... And anyway my system is way less far off from very costlier one than anybody can imagine... To reach them really it only lack the BACCH filters... 😉
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@facten My point was what was stated in the article that @kota1 linked earlier in this thread. I use an Amazon FireTV Cube because the FireTV Stick does not support Dolby Atmos played back via Amazon Music. My A/V Preamp is an Onkyo PR-SC5530 https://www.intl.onkyo.com/products/av_components/av_separates/pr-sc5530/index.html It may be a bit long in the teeth but supports all the formats.
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Amazon’s latest FireTV Stick supports Atmos Music playback,: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08MQZXN1X/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 I use an Onkyo RZ630 9 channel in the mancave, very happy with it. I got it at a great price too. Your system looks amazing, are those Klipsch speakers? How did you get that rack into the wall? Thanks |
There are LOTS of affordable products that perform right on the edge of the most expensive esoteric units. By affordable, I mean what most working adults are willing to pay if the sound is worth the price. That means a used Sony table radio for some. A used Yamaha receiver and a pair of Elac or Warfdales for others. It may mean a lot more. Careful used shopping can of course pay off. If I were to define the minimum of what I consider true high end sound excluding prestige or hearing damage level playback, I might suggest: Audiolab 6000 integrated, Sonas Faber Luminna IIs, SMSL Do300 DAC, Monoprice sub. Some kind of streamer, Wiim or what ever that thing is. Cables form Monoprice, Amazon etc. I venture that is 99.9% of what is possible. That last .1% is a real bugger. Real, but hard. That is still several thousand dollars which is a lot of real money to most of us, but it is actually high fidelity. Is the IOTA or similar as smooth sounding as the Autiolab? Or spend a bit more for a Hegel? You hit the diminishing returns real fast. Mojo or Aries DAC worth it? How far short is a JDS Atom amp from the most exotic headphones amp? Not much. Is a $9000 preamp any better sounding than $109? I would not bet on it. Prettier. Nicer feel. More inputs. Maybe your choice of masking distortion. But not more neutral. I do sort of miss the masking of my Nakamichi preamp with it's tone controls. Nostalgia maybe. Unfortunately prestige, looks, and ego drive the high end market. Usually you do get great sound. Some of it real, much of it placebo. Both making you happy. Hopefully you get reliability. Want a lifetime amp? Buy a Mac or Bryston. Billet aluminum cases don't sound any better. Braid over a power cord does not improve imaging. VU meters are eye candy only. No amount of user end electronics can make the source better. They can only degrade it. Some degradation is considered to be "musical". Some is not. Some is a tradeoff we are willing to make not to get a different defect. Personal preference. Yea, I would put a set of $50,000 speakers on a RadioShack receiver and the next best dollar spent would probably be better speakers, it there actually are any. |
Very wise and interesting post indeed thanks for the reading...
You forgot one thing, and it is not a criticism from me just a rare fact and possibility you did forgot to mention ... Some products of the past were some flagship among the best in the world...They created a sound experience of their own and were never redesigned again as it was... My AKG K340 is exactly the case... When optimized it beat most headphone save the very costlier top ...It cost me 100 bucks... I wrote a review of 30 pages about it ... 😊 My amplifier a Sansui alpha from 35 years ago in a lesser degree is a product of high quality even with today standards and he cost me 300 bucks.... I tried last week to upgrade it with one of the best contemporary amplifier for headphone for my K340 a very well reviewed one ... It was a disaster for me ...I returned it...The Sansui alpha is not obsolete in this coupling at all even from the headphone out...This speak a lot about his design quality...I must say to give justice to the "upgrading" amplier brand that the K340 is probably one of the most hard headphones to drive well...Too picky and not only hungry...If they are not fede well you loose his potential S.Q. AKG was a microphones designer they created this hybrid as they created their TOP microphones line , and anyway headphone are reverse microphone or the opposite... No other company after that ever bother to create a son complex and costly design for headphone...This is what a Top russian headphone designer said to me... Coupling the two, the Sansui alpha and the K340 give me audiophile top experience for peanuts... Anyway i never listened anything better by a good margin... On almost all acoustic counts.. Then.... Price tag is a deception most of the times as the UNIQUE indication of S.Q. quality because material design quality is one thing but sound quality is not linearly related to it the way most people imagine .......Material design quality matter for sure but it is not synonym of sound quality... It is not an absolute essential unique indication for audiophile experience conditions which implied synergy between chosen gear FIRST and SECOND acoustic, mechanical and electrical precise well embeddings of the system parts into one another and also in the room/house/ specific ears relation and grid... Use a low cost flagship of the past and embed it well and the result may be as in my case top audiophile experience... Because a MINIMAL quality treshold of sound experience quality exist objectively and subjectively...
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Audiolab 6000 integrated I use the DTS Play-Fi ecosystem and see the companion streamer from Audiolab the 6000N is on sale for around 50% off. I don’t need a streamer, I am using a Paradigm Link (with ARC room correction) because I have Paradigm speakers. Do you think the Audiolab 6000N streamer would be a WOW? Monoprice sub. I just added a third sub to my system, a Monoprice Slim 12 incher that I wall mounted in the back of my room, you can see the pic in my virtual system. Incredible bass from a slim unit and under $200! I wanted to have a sub up near my height speakers. Unfortunately prestige, looks, and ego drive the high end market. I asked a dealer about upgrading from my current processor, he is a straight shooter. He said you can upgrade features if I go up a level in the same brand but the SQ will be about the same. No amount of user end electronics can make the source better That’s why atmos music has helped my system, sometimes the remix can sound better than a mix from back in the day. See this box set from the Beach Boys: The collection boasts 24 new mixes including two first-time stereo mixes, plus 22 new-and-improved stereo mixes, which in some cases feature the latest in digital stereo extraction technology, allowing for the team to separate the original mono backing tracks for the first time. |
i am a dinausaurs too... I dont use phone for movies, music, and texting or for any computer use... I like phone for calls necessities ONLY.. I own a old flap phone because it is smaller and indestructible from 15 years ago... Seeing people on phone all around me revulse me... I come from a world where you were speaking to people around you in priority.,.. The most advanced civilization are way over technology... It is a threshold to pass after autodestruction tentation or attempts... 😊 To stay in this thread matter boundaries "spectacular" is not "musical"... The way we acoustically recorded classical music , be it Indian raga or Beethoven symphonies, has nothing to do with "spectacular" effects...It is supposed to be musical... 3/d acoustic is not surround object based audio... We can conciliate the two but the aim is different ...It is why i stay in 3/D stereo...
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As far as phones go that is the way the majority of people consume music today, using bluetooth ear buds. I replaced my phone with a very nice DAP from Onkyo, the DP-X1 and it sounds great, is android based so I can use it to control my system and use the play-fi app for streaming. One DAP to rule them all:
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re " When you listen to live music, the musicians are in front of you, not all around you. Sounds like a gatekeeping money grab to me." That is just a practical limitation of delivering live music to an audience. But why do we have to be limited to that when Atmos can put us sitting in the midst of a String quartet. Not a gimmick, a paradigm shift !
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You are right about 3-D holography being more stupendous than stereo...But using based objects audio as atmos is very different than using BACCH filters... I will stay with 2 speakers and this is why i favored the most natural approach by BACCH filters... way less costlier too...And natural because by mathematical acoustic priciple there is no timbre degradation when playing recorded original acoustic of any stereo albums through our stereo system with the BACCH ... 3-D acoustic dont need many speakers and any other DSP than BACCH filters...
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No, it’s a gimmick, and a tired, old one at that. In the early days of two-channel stereo, there were demo records with people playing ping-pong and trains that roared from one end of the room to the other. Some bands such as the Beatles made "stereo" albums with the vocals on one side and the instruments on the other. Immersive? Paradigm shift? Then came quad with SQ, QS, CD-4 and discrete. Instruments could be made to swirl around you. You could be in the middle of a string quartet! Immersive? Paradigm shift? Nope, just a gimmick that few people wanted. But I get that the OP is obsessed with "object based audio" so I hope he leaves room in his budget for some objects that will help add excitement to his experience. He should certainly have a few of these, perhaps one for each speaker:
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You seem to be content with your stereo (a 90 year old technology), no problem there. But, some technological advancement from the very smart guys at Dolby, DTS, Sony, Yamaha, etc offered the potential to create high fidelity multichannel/object based/immersive rigs starting around 2014. There are significant costs and a learning curve associated with putting together such a high fidelity rig. It is very very different from the barrel bottom receivers and sht speakers popped into ceilings, which is typically associated with immersive audio in purist stereo circles. But, once, you hear the former, it is hard to unhear it. For some of us, life is short and we like to experience things like that before the finite lifespan ends. It is not really a question of finances these days because i know a lot of guys who will drop 80k on a truck clean and easy ( i.e. for a chunk of metal on wheels that will take a guy from point a to point b, whoop di doo). I’ll nix the 80k for a goofyass truck and spend it on such a rig...makes me happier...( different priorities)
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