Geoff's words: Everybody’s got something to hide except me and my monkey.
Naw, I just can’t bring myself to say it… but am assuming this is where you learned about handling vibration?
Robert
Do equipment stands have an impact on electronics?
Mechanical grounding or isolation from vibration has been a hot topic as of late. Many know from experience that footers, stands and other vibration technologies impact things that vibrate a lot like speakers, subs or even listening rooms (my recent experience with an "Energy room"). The question is does it have merit when it comes to electronics and if so why? Are there plausible explanations for their effect on electronics or suggested measurement paradigms to document such an effect?
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you seem to think that a low post count implies something? really, it implies only that people are doing other things most of the time and I have nothing against good sound in a car, or with people doing installations but it is obvious you don't understand bioacoustics or electronics, so your attacks on others are really ill-taken my answer to the person above asking why you do that is that is likely a form of psychological compensation |
randy-11 75 posts 10-18-2016 8:04pm geoff - you are completely wrong and any undergraduate physics student could set you right or try google Google indicates that you do car audio installation, and I hope that is working out for you That is the funniest post of the week. This thread certainly attracts all types. ;-) |
She has written a response to the townsend merry go round that kills all polarties of shear including the one you want to keep and use. Removes some amplitudes of frequency. Back to the beach. Tom.. Star Sound TechnologiesWell that should be a ringer. I am looking forward to something more meaty than glib (and almost confabulatory) ad hominem banter. |
Audiopoint wrote, "(repeat): Funny thing how you continuously attack everything and everyone across the vast audio nation, yet when asked to respond in kind you buckle under the pressure by never answering any questions “whatsoever” directed at you. From my standpoint - totally inexcusable." Not really sure why you’re so angry and frustrated. Actually I have always answered questions here. I suspect you’re just not used to debate or think there is no debate. In any case you seem to be grasping at straws and actually it’s you who is avoiding answering the question. What’s so funny you apparently are under the impression you’re the only game in town, that it's your way or the highway. Everybody’s got something to hide except me and my monkey. Geoff Kait machina dynamica advanced audio concepts |
I thought you had a seismologist on board. Where’s the seismologist when you need her? I know, she’s too busy. Lol Mr. Kait, yes it is true. We are way too busy in keeping up with your rants, grade two humor, personal insults towards people far superior to your level of intelligence, especially those you have never met. We now realize, this behaviour is your personal style signature here on AudioGon. An unidentifiable mockery typed lifestyle, which in our opinion answering you is even more time wasted. (repeat): Funny thing how you continuously attack everything and everyone across the vast audio nation, yet when asked to respond in kind you buckle under the pressure by never answering any questions “whatsoever” directed at you. From my standpoint - totally inexcusable. In our meager defense, it is extremely difficult navigating our responses due to patents and processes pending at this time. When Tom D. returns from vacation, he will be more than happy to rejoin this thread as I am not the person heading up this end of the research and development process. In closing Mr. Kait: We ask your patience…; wait for the products… wait for the patent approvals… be patient old timer - after all the entire LIGO project was not built in seven days either. Robert Star Sound |
randy-11 74 posts 10-18-2016 12:02am theaudiotweak1,373 posts10-13-2016 3:19pmGeoff Shear waves do not travel thru the air so they cannot be a part of your acoustic waves... That is correct. They do propagate in any fluid, only solids. The guy arguing with you above is completely wrong. As side from the obvious grammatical errors in your statement, "they do propagate in any fluid, only solids," any wave can propagate through a solid OR fluid. That is why we have shear waves and shear forces in air. And why there are shock waves in air. Apparently you fellers don’t know the difference between a force and a wave. Acoustic (sound) waves - the ones that travel through air - are mechanical waves, just like waves in solids. And sound waves travel through heavier liquids like water and even solids. In fact sound waves travel faster through heavier liquids and solids than through air. And that’s why, in terms of their effect on components, insomuch as they are mechanical waves, acoustic waves produce vibration in components. There is no difference - in terms of their *effect* - between the vibration produced by acoustic waves and the vibration produced internally by transformers, motors, etc. I consider this particular case closed. |
theaudiotweak1,373 posts10-13-2016 3:19pmGeoff Shear waves do not travel thru the air so they cannot be a part of your acoustic waves... That is correct. They do propagate in any fluid, only solids. The guy arguing with you above is completely wrong. |
Thanks Robert, I'll look into your products. Some of the drum company's have introduced accessories designed to allow their drum shells to resonate as long as possible (sustain is very "in" right now in drums), by suspending their mass in free air. Mounted toms holders are no longer mounted directly on the toms' shells (metal parts bolted onto drum shells seriously affects their ability to resonate), but are instead attached to the drumhead hoops. Pearl offers rubber feet for floor toms legs which contain an air pocket designed to prevent the shell from being "grounded" to the floor, robbing it of it's full vibrational resonance. For hi-fi product support, isn't a lack of resonance the goal? And whatever resonance (vibration) is inevitable to be prevented from entering hi-fi components? Absolute isolation may be an unreachable goal, but it's a correct one imo. |
To Bdp24,
Not to sway this thread off topic but as an experienced percussionist you might find this interesting:
My background was a touring sound engineer through the seventies and eighties spending a lot of time working with percussion instruments, the piano being my favorite. I learned from musicians who graciously took the time to educate me on multiple playing techniques, pitch and tuning procedures. Upon retiring I could also differentiate the sonic characteristics between the many name brands of instruments as well.
The company I now work for continues to engineer products that improve the operational efficiency of a variety of musical instruments that come in contact with the floor, providing newer, more efficient mechanical grounding (direct coupling) methodologies ala Star Sound style.
In our opinion, current drum and cymbal stands relate to resonance function described as a “catch and hold” methodology. They hold the energy within the metals then releases it back into the air as heat via frequency cancellation. The rubber feet also assist with primary absorption in reducing the resonance formed from vibration. This process has worked well over the ages but we are discovering performance can be improved. Our technology is titled Live-Vibe Technology™ which utilizes an optimized geometry, coupled with material science and mechanical grounding techniques. In every case involving prototypes or where the technology has been adapted to existing products specific to musical instruments, the sound definitely improves moreover, without altering the sonic character of the instrument.
Example: When you adapt Audio Points™ to a Musser® vibraphone with or without a variable speed motor; the instrument immediately responds noticeably with greater dynamics, improved attack and, more importantly, lengthier decay times. The vibes also increases in volume and stage presence - all with a sense of effortlessness. Each of these musical attributes coincide with our highly successful Tone Acoustics Endpins™ for cello, upright bass and bass clarinet. We custom manufactured a set of Audio Points and mounted them to a concert grand piano; that experience, both stunned and lifted us to a new musical level of thinking.
We are convinced that possibilities exist to improve overall performance on a drum kit by designing and improving the stand builds. We base this assumption on the proven success of the Original Sistrum Platform™ leg assemblies. These assemblies feature three materials which were used in combination to move energy to ground at high speed. This technology literally brought the equipment rack design to life. In addition, we had success in modifying and/or building microphone stands that produced a much clearer, smoother warmth with a greater, airier highly-audible response with a variety of newer and classic microphones.
I met a percussionist in Allentown, PA who owns a machine shop and manufactured snare hardware using copper and brass as principal materials modifying a Slingerland deep snare shell. The drum sounded like a live gunshot with absolute over-the-top volume. Unfortunately the snare overpowered the rest of the kit and actually limited the override microphones capabilities to enhance the cymbals and kit; however, we learned from that experiment where materials that are highly conductive for resonance definitely have a profound effect on the overall performance specifically in the speed of attack, stage presence and dispersion and provided a much deeper (lower frequencies) sound quality.
Why not focus on the drum shell too? By establishing a greater operational efficiency to the instrument’s materials construction, forming a high-speed conductive pathways for resonance transfer we might soon be tuning drum heads on just three pins instead of multiples.
From a vibration management perspective, I am constantly amazed how the world of hi-fi components, loudspeakers and studio environments continue to integrate seamlessly with our understanding of musical instruments.
Robert Star Sound |
But seriously, folks. I am lucky that my speakers are sitting on concrete. They sound best that way. I've tried a few intermediaries. Wood platforms, steel points, stiff felt. None helped, most made no difference.My listening room is in our concrete bunker of a basement and have always sounded better with some form of energy management. A previous speaker (Intuitive Design Gamma Summits) used Stillpoints and later SS audio points and still later Sistrum stands and there was always a noticeable improvement. As for electronics, I have used cheap Sorbothane products (Herbies and later Equarack), Stillpoints and finally SS. Always heard improvements. It does not hurt to experiment. SS has a return policy as do many other companies. |
geoffkaitTHC provides the ultimate in "isolation" technology for grey matter. It blunts us from the negative effects of a poorly constructed system (or from the jittery OCD mindset of the average audiofool). I find wine works well too....but not quite as well. |
Randy11 wrote, "Otherwise, you will have to show me some data. It will be easy to set up an experiment using a vibrometer or your laser interferometry test equipment. If you don’t own the latter maybe B&W will loan you theirs, which they use to assess cone breakup." Thanks for volunteering. Let us know how it turns out. Be sure and use double blind testing. |
"equipment stands will have direct impact on electronics then perhaps electronics will be destroyed" not a bad summary of some of the tweeker craziness in high end audio BUT... old-timey capacitors (the kind with metal fins) ARE known to change capacitance due to microphonics (so there can be real effects on your 1930s gear) On the list of plausible but apparently unproven effects, I'd list tubes; after that, mechanical sub-assemblies like the laser mounting noted above for CD players (except... the error correction algorithms ought to take care of that) Otherwise, you will have to show me some data. It will be easy to set up an experiment using a vibrometer or your laser interferometry test equipment. If you don't own the latter maybe B&W will loan you theirs, which they use to assess cone breakup. This is really one of the last things I'd worry about (along with speaker cables, power cables, and yada yada cables). Get good speakers, deal with the listening room, get well recorded program material and then you can substitute in extra-spendy boxes for the well-engineered electronics boxes using double-blind testing. |
2channel8 wrote, "But seriously, folks. I am lucky that my speakers are sitting on concrete. They sound best that way. I’ve tried a few intermediaries. Wood platforms, steel points, stiff felt. None helped, most made no difference." But have you compared the concrete stands to decoupling? While I suspect we all agree that different materials produce different sound, there seems to be a fairly wide difference of opinions regarding coupling vs decoupling (isolation). As Townshend points out, isolating the speakers has two benefits - isolating the speakers from the forces of seismic type vibration and isolating the rest if the system from mechanical feedback produced by the speakers. 2channel8 also wrote, "My CD/SACD player does sound slightly better with sorbothane feet. Not so much that I’d be motivated to invest more. Am I missing out? Would a more expensive Isolation system improve the CD/SACD SQ more than the difference between sorbothane and nothing?" Sorbothane is one of those materials that seems like a really good idea but in practice can do more harm than good inasmuch as Sorbothane, like a lot of soft or compliant materials like say rubber, even lead, stores energy and prevents it’s rapid exist from the system. CD/SACD players in my experience benefit greatly from isolation. One reason I suspect that’s true is that the laser assembly itself is mounted on a set of tiny springs and that laser assembly is therefore at the mercy of the resonant frequency of the springs, circa 8 Hz. Thus low frequency seismic vibration comes up from the floor into the CD/SACD player and excites the laser assembly, over stressing the laser servo feedback system. Of course there are many other reasons to disallow structural vibration from the CD/SACD player such as the circuit boards and their sensitive microprocessors on board. This is not to say that certain things in the CD/SACD player themselves cannot produce unwanted vibration as well, you know, things like capacitors and transformers. cheers |
Isolation is vital! Mostly from the wife and kids. But seriously, folks. I am lucky that my speakers are sitting on concrete. They sound best that way. I've tried a few intermediaries. Wood platforms, steel points, stiff felt. None helped, most made no difference. My CD/SACD player does sound slightly better with sorbothane feet. Not so much that I'd be motivated to invest more. Am I missing out? Would a more expensive Isolation system improve the CD/SACD SQ more than the difference between sorbothane and nothing? |
theaudiotweak 1,372 posts 10-13-2016 6:19pm Geoff Shear waves do not travel thru the air so they cannot be a part of your acoustic waves.. Shear waves are part of how a speaker operates as well as that of a vinyl record and the stylus that tracks that record. Removing or reducing a polarity of shear will increase the operating efficiency of a device and in the case of audio make for better sound. Tom. Starsound Technologies if you're not referring to vibration or acoustic waves traveling through the air and producing vibration then you have discovered a new science. Congratulations. |
Geoff Shear waves do not travel thru the air so they cannot be a part of your acoustic waves.. Shear waves are part of how a speaker operates as well as that of a vinyl record and the stylus that tracks that record. Removing or reducing a polarity of shear will increase the operating efficiency of a device and in the case of audio make for better sound. Tom. Starsound Technologies |
theaudiotweak 1,371 posts 10-13-2016 4:58pm Unless the device is properly grounded it will suffer from shear wave interference and the resulting inefficiencies..even if it floats in air. No it won't. That's what damping is for. By inspection the frequencies of acoustic waves are well above seismic frequencies, which are not amenable to damping. Case solved. Shear wave interference. Wow! Did you think that up all by yourself? The resulting inefficiencies? Groan..... |
For starters mag lev for audio, even audio turntables, has been around like forever. Hiw long has the Mag Lev Verdier turntable been around? Gotta be twenty years. And the Verdier has a really heavy platter to boot. Ditto the Relaxa Mag Lev iso stand. Noto Bene: Mag lev is great for trains, for audio not so terrific, at least it's easy to implement. It has issues. If Mag Lev was so great don’t you think LIGO the program for detecting gravity waves would have incorporated it somewhere in their iso system? Hel-looo! |
Regarding the floating turntable I'm pretty suspicious. The pictures all look like hi res concept images to me. There's no credible discussion of the project risks and no information on prototypes. The slick video puts me off and is the turntable an animation or is it real? there's no scene of the man and the platter together for example anyway wish them all the best but I'll hold off on investing in this one |
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/245727224/mag-lev-audio-the-first-levitating-turntable Audiogon needs to work on there hyperlink code. It fails repeatedly. |
Here is a peak at 21st century equipment isolation: http://https//www.kickstarter.com/projects/245727224/mag-lev-audio-the-first-levitating-turntable |
The word "microphonic" itself is a little ambiguous as even tubes that are referred to or marketed as non-microphonic are in fact slightly microphonic, which can be easily demonstrated by using some effective tube dampers. Furthermore even things like circuit boards or cables or solid aluminum chassis that are not "microphonic" or considered to be "microphonic" are susceptible to vibration when excited by their resonant frequencies. That’s the case whether the component is tube or solid state. Funny story. A friend of mine said watch this. He was sitting in a chair on the other side of the room from his stand with a CD player on the top. Next to the CD player was a glass of water. Next, he began tapping his knee with his finger very softly. Immediately ripples appeared on the surface of the water in the glass, synchronized with the tapping. |
That's great feedback Ralph and describes precisely what I have experienced. Since you are an engineer and manufacturer like Geoff, any thoughts on why SS devices would be vulnerable?The semiconductors themselves are microphonic. I've seen some (in need of replacement obviously) that rang like a bell when you ticked them with a small screwdriver, just like a tube. I've also seen cables and capacitors be microphonic. One time a highly respected high end cable manufacturer made a set of cables for our Neumann U67 microphones, which I was eager to use, but regrettably the cables were so microphonic (tapping on them was easily heard at the mixboard) that they could not be used at all! The stock Neumann cables made much less noise. |
There are a bunch of really interesting designs for audiophile and non-audiophile iso stands, many of which are actually not active designs, not the least of which is the complicated Minus K negative stiffness stand and the magentic levitation types. I appreciate any device with very low resonant frequency, for example 0.5 Hz is a very good number. The Vibraplane and Minus K both came to audiophiles courtesy of Newport Corp, the mother of vibration isolation devices for industry, active and passive. I also like the idea of dual mass-spring layers and even sapphire threads or even fishing line for want of sapphire thread. Lol I’m also a fan of DIY bungee cord device in lieu of the usual DIY tennis ball or bicycle inner tube type stuff. I also like to suspend all cables and power cords using springy rubber bands or thread with rubber bands on the ends. finally, as I’ve intimated before, aside from the technical aspects, there is an art to isolation: how much internal damping, how much damping for the top plate, how to interface the component to the top plate, how to interface the iso device to the floor or rack, all these issues are critical for obtaining the best sound. cheers |
and at spots of musical peaks where you might otherwise cringe expecting things to get hard and edgy the music just sails thru with ease. this retains the musical flow with large scale music which tends to make you play more of it.That is interesting. That illustrates what I have always recognized in top tier systems: "dynamic ease." Loud but not loud. Full but not strained. Another conversation (or it could be part of this conversation) would be the application of active isolation or any of these energy management technologies to room engineering. I have toyed with that, and the results are compelling to say the least. |
Andrew, yes; for a few reasons the active isolation does yield a greater payoff on the vinyl. obviously the most significant issue is the mechanical nature of the stylus in the groove and so the delta of improvement is greatest, then you have simply more information and nuance from the vinyl so further to take things. the true payoff has to do with a sort of spooky level of ’suspension of disbelief’ that happens with voice, cellos, piano’s......or musical peaks.....you hear farther into the music. decays and ambient information seems unlimited. like a light turned on rendering more info on familiar tracks. and at spots of musical peaks where you might otherwise cringe expecting things to get hard and edgy the music just sails thru with ease. this retains the musical flow with large scale music which tends to make you play more of it. the more dynamic and vivid the pressing the greater the degree of improvement. direct to disc pressings seem to particularly benefit. digital dacs do benefit, while silver disc playing benefits even more (again, a mechanical process). obviously the better the passive isolation that it replaces the less the improvement that is heard. there are some very good passive devices out there. |