Yes they do. I’m not here to advocate for any particular brand but I’ve heard a lot and they do matter. High Fidelity reveal cables, Kubala Sosna Elation and Clarity Cable Natural. I’m having a listening session where all of them is doing a great job. I’ve had cables that were cheaper in my system but a nicely priced cable that matches your system is a must. I’m not here to argue what I’m not hearing because I have a pretty good ear. I’m enjoying these three brands today and each is presenting the music differently but very nicely. Those who say cables don’t matter. Get your ears checked. I have a system that’s worth about 30 to 35k retail. Now all of these brands are above 1k and up but they really are performing! What are your thoughts.
Hey Geoff, lay off Kubala-Sosnas... my ICs of choice. (Full disclosure - I'm friends w/ Joe Kubala - one of the nicest men in audio.).
More to the point, I agree with Elizabeth that this thread has long outlived its usefulness. Nobody can tell you what YOU HEAR, and that is ALL that matters (excuse my caps).
To the OP: Calvin, what were you trying to accomplish here if not start an argument. I personally agree with your original post, but it was pretty much designed to call out the skeptics and start a 'troll war'.
Whether or not this thread continues... I'm outta here. This is a waste of time that I could be listening to music!
@prof thanks for sharing you have some great gear. It’s should sound good no matter what. Lol. The best system I’ve heard is the Raidho 5.1 with all soulution electronics and anzus cabling. A guy had a home listening cottage and Raidho came in to set it all up for him. You got some well respected gear. I also believe in spending money on the best gear you can get before spending on cables. My Gato speakers are not well known but I go and listen to a lot of the big name speakers and my speaker competes to me with big boys up to the 25 to 30k range. They have a really clear open see through midrange and tight bass. The treble is the trick though. I use a Cable called clarity natural and it makes the highs sound airy to my ears. My speakers are my last ones. I’m never changing them. I had the revel studio 2 before these but I’m happy I went to Gato Audio out of Denmark. My Dac is made by the brother of the chip maker for oppo they make the Sabre chip. The amp kraudio va 900 is the baby version of the kronzilla. It’s sounds less tubey. It sounds closer to audio research sound wise but with a little more texture. I think you have a great set up. I know you are not a Cable guy but I. My system my cables add just a little of what my ear likes. I’m not putting your point of view down. In my system it works for me. Just keep enjoying your stuff. I only ask what you had in your system because honestly if your gear is not at a certain level it can only perform so well. On cheap or poor speakers cables won’t make much difference. It’s not the case with you you have pretty good gear. @geoffkait I’m not showing off by telling you what my gear is and how much I paid for it. No disrespect but not knowing what gear you running I’m a lot less inclined to value what you say. That’s just my opinion. I don’t know what basevlevel you are at. I was able to have Allnic, veloce, classe, high fidelity, Kubala sosna, Audio research, revel, Sonus faber, Vienna acoustics , clarity Cable, Clarus cables, atlas mavros, audioquest in my system at different times through the last 12 years so my context for what great sound is maybe different based on my ability to have long demos to well respected gear. Any way without knowing your gear I’m less inclined to pay attention. When I hadn’t heard better I did not know better. @prof enjoy the music.
calvinj, I am certainly not here to tell you or anyone you shouldn't enjoy buying and listening to whatever cables you like. Glad you are so enthusiastic about your set up.
I'm mostly representing the reasons why I don't apportion much of my mental energy and money to cabling. I have enough in this hobby I'm obsessive about as it is!
@calvinj so your one of those guys! It only can sound good and be transparent if it's new and expensive.
I heard a pair of vitavox speakers with 300B tube amps and line stage and phonostage all built by the same guy. All tube stuff. The front end was a clearaudio goldfinger on a clearaudio linear tracker on a verdier. The soundstage was like a cinesphere but still with pinpoint imaging. Pretty much the best sound I ever heard. 1950's speakers, amp tech from the 40's on vinyl which has been around forever. Just because it's vintage doesn't mean it's not good.
calvinj @geoffkait I’m not showing off by telling you what my gear is and how much I paid for it. No disrespect but not knowing what gear you running I’m a lot less inclined to value what you say. That’s just my opinion. I don’t know what basevlevel you are at. I was able to have Allnic, veloce, classe, high fidelity, Kubala sosna, Audio research, revel, Sonus faber, Vienna acoustics , clarity Cable, Clarus cables, atlas mavros, audioquest in my system at different times through the last 12 years so my context for what great sound is maybe different based on my ability to have long demos to well respected gear. Any way without knowing your gear I’m less inclined to pay attention. When I hadn’t heard better I did not know better.
I’m not ONE OF THOSE GUYS! I said what I said because vintage gear sounds different. Cables make less of a difference in vintage gear. Vintage gear has a nice full sound. Vintage and newer age stuff both have THIER plus and minus. Gear doesn’t have to be expensive to sound good. I only mentioned what I have and have demoed to give folks an idea of how many diffferent Cable brands and equipment brands I have experience with. Also if you are a vintage gear guy I don’t have much experience with that stuff so for me I Don’t have much in common Audio wise to share with you. I have been blessed to have expensive gear but that doesn’t mean I look down on cheaper stuff. Anyway, on some of these forums you have guys that attack the other guys who own expensive cables and equipment. I’m not saying cheap gear is bad I started with the cheap stuff but the more expensive stuff bettered the cheap stuff. I don’t have time for The Audio envy crowd so feel how you feel. Anyway you took what I said and ASSumed a whole lot. Whatever. Enjoy your vintage gear and I will enjoy my gear. Best wishes.
@prof. I been in a position to,demo a lot of stuff without having to buy it. Lol so I got to start at the bottom and hear a wide range of stuff. I think I have a pretty good ear. I do believe the gear is way more important than cabling.
It's pretty funny reading some comments on here. My really good friend has MBL speakers upstairs and Raidho downstairs. We've changed cables, including power cords and it's easy to hear the changes on both systems.
Ricred1 These threads can go crazy. For one there is quite a bit of money spent on cabling by some of us. The non believers think we are nutty. In addition to that some of us have higher end systems. People will get Audio envy and they wil say that it’s a waste to spend 8k 12k 20k 30k 50k and up on a speaker. They will call you crazy or snobbish. The truth is that there are some really great speakers out here and 8 times out of 10 the cost more. They have more r&d and build quality most of the time so you get better sound. I never diss the the sub 3k speakers some of them do a great job but these folks think we are bragging because of the gear. I’m not I’m just telling you for the most part there are some great speakers at the higher price points. A lot but not all but the better budget you. have if you know what you are doing you can put together a killer system. Also the more your system is worth it allows you to put in and justify better cabl8ng and power cords. For some it’s nutty but our systems allow us to hear the difference. That’s all. It putting people down but if you can’t tell me what kit you are running your opinions are useless to me.
It isn’t about money to me. It’s about our experiences. If you have an opinion based on inserting different cables in your system and come to the conclusion they don’t make a difference. I can buy that and who am I to say anything different. Notice, I didn’t say sounds better or worse, but sounds different! Based on my experience cables can and do sound different. Are they worth the money is a entirely different question?
calvinj Also the more your system is worth it allows you to put in and justify better cabl8ng and power cords. For some it’s nutty but our systems allow us to hear the difference. That’s all. It putting people down but if you can’t tell me what kit you are running your opinions are useless to me.
>>>>>Back at ya, slick! Your opinions are worthless to me. A rich man has about as much chance of entering audio Nirvana as a camel has of passing through the eye of a needle.
@geoffkait as a matter of fact get off the thread then if you don’t my opinions are worthless. Honestly I never cared about your opinions on any thread. YOU SPECIFICALLY. ALL YOU DO IS TROLL. You never discuss what particular gear you have you only try to portray others as snobs or looney because they do certain things with their systems. To be honest the minute I see your name in any thread I pretty much glaze of it because usually it’s a bunch of babble. Just like my opinions are worthless to you. For the most part yours have always been to me. I don’t care to engage with you because I don’t gain any perspective. It’s a waste of time. JUST BEING HONEST. DIDNT JUST START ON THIS THREAD ITS BEEN LIKE THSTVANY WHERE I SEE YOU POST. CHEERS.
I’ve never heard you say anything about your actual gear or cabling you have experience with. You always speak in general terms with these points of view that for people like me have no reference point. It’s not personal at @geoffkait I asked @prof what he had he shared it with me to give me s reference point all you did is give a blah blah blah so from this point on your opinions are not useful. Carry on
Definitely has no purpose for me and you to talk. ANY OTHER PEOPLE THAT ARE WILLING TO CHIME IN AND SHARE WHAT GEAR THAT THEY ACTUALLY USE AND THEIR ACTUAL CABLE EXPERIENCES PLEASE CHIME IN.
@calvinj your making a lot of generalizations again that show your lack of knowledge. Like your using the terms vintage gear and cheap gear like its synonymous. Have you ever priced a pair of vitavox corner horns? Pair of western electric amps? Then you bring up the term audio envy. Like us us poor sods who run vintage just can’t afford modern stuff but lust after your system. Couldn’t be further from the truth. I run vintage gear because the pieces I run sound better to me and are built better. Nine times out of ten that modern piece your paying big bucks for is just a vintage idea/piece regurgitated. And back in the day a lot more engineering and money was applied to audio/new products. Magic fairy dust was not included. Your post denying that your one of those guys essentially proves it more than anything.
As far as lack of knowledge. Whatever! My experiences are mine. You have your opinion. I have mine. That’s part of the problem here. A lot of you guys think you know it all. I don’t nor to I claim to. My opinions are different but your lack of knowledge led you to make that statement Most of what we talk about is opinion. But I guess my lack of knowledge led me to have my opinion. Lol. Anyway. Carry on.
Whenever somebody starts off with "my system consists of 35K retail worth of equipment" it's a good indicator of the type of individual you're dealing with. I've swapped so many pieces in and out to get to where Im at I wouldn't even have a clue of what the retail of my system is! And more importantly I wouldn't even think to state that as a qualifier! It's pretty much meaningless… And you're the one that doesn't state anything as if it's an opinion. You stated definitively that if people think cables don't matter they should get their ears checked. But yet I'm the know it all…
Yeah whatever, keep making your ASSumptions. Like I said before it was only used as a context in what I am doing with my system. I’ve heard great cheaper systems. I have heard great systems with things like bookshelf Sonus faber toys and a small name amplifier. Anyway I’m not here to convince you who I am. I have been blessed to hear entry level equipment all the way to the super high end. I settled with my equipment based on performance not price. As you see most of my gear is not from the big names in audio. I’ve done my research well and I enjoy my system and cabling. What works for you works for you. We will never probably hear each other’s systems. My system is actually up in a video on the Lone Star Audio Fest page. I’m happy with it and how I got to it. I hope you are with yours. Best wishes.
@elizabeth I agree with you. Some speakers have some pretty unique design improvements. My gato Fm6 have some pretty unique things that they do with the crossover as well as other things. My dac is made by the brother of the inventor of the ess Sabre chip. KR audio just sent me there newly developed just released Kt88 tubes. I have nothing against vintage gear but there have been technological advances in the hobby as well as in digital that I’m taking advantage of. I’m enjoying my run and my system. I have nothing against the budget guys or vintage guys. I think I have created a great sound And system that nobody else will have in terms of my combination of gear and cabling.
My impression is that high end audio since the 90's went down into a rabbit hole, which I would describe as 'data dump'. The majority of designers seem to focus on the highest possible resolution, as if the essence of music can best be communicated with maximum detail retrieval. Whether or not you agree with this is not the point.
My point is that cables will make a huge difference in 'data dump' systems, where just about everything makes a difference. In a way these are unstable systems, not unlike complex systems in nature on the verge of chaos (climate change comes to mind). They yield the highest 'information density', which can be exhilarating as well as highly unpredictable and volatile. You hear everything, but the musical message easily gets 'lost in translation'.
By comparison well designed vintage systems are more stable, being less 'close to the edge'. System balance is not that easily disturbed and the 'fabric' of the music remains intact, no matter what cables you use.
Old thread and ancient topic, but my .02...........Worked on top shelf military electronics for 45 years and we never worried about "better" cables until well up into the Ghz range.............Any cable, properly designed and terminated for the prescribed use should easily pass any electrical signals passing through it, period. Can cables sound "different" ? I guess they can or people wouldn't spend ridiculous sums for them. I suppose it comes down to your money, your choice, but I honestly think there are far better ways to improve your system sound than mega-buck wires.....................it is after all, simply wire with a dielectric. It should do nothing more than transfer a signal from point A to B.............If you have money to burn and it makes you happy, enjoy.
You are making a claim that others have made here: that it takes a really high resolution system for cable differences to become apparent.
1. But as I keep pointing out: People with "lower res" systems have been talking about and reporting differences between cables for ages. You can go to Amazon and find hundreds and hundreds of customer comments on speaker cables and interconnects there, many of these people clearly are not using super high end gear. In fact you can look up cables on amazon costing a mere 14 bucks, and find a hundred people commenting, many on how they clearly made a sonic difference in their system.
Now, if you really need a high resolution system and/or high end cables for the differences to really show, then that implies all these "bottom feeding" folks are imagining things. And if all those people can imagine they are hearing differences every time they buy new cables on their lower end systems, then it just implies the role of imagination in hearing cable differences, which is a problem for anyone, high res system or not.
But IF these people....and the great many over the years with modest systems...are really hearing sonic differences, then it puts the lie to the idea that you need a super high res system to hear them. (And that’s usually the first thing some audiophiles claim to cable skeptics - "you must not have a high resolution enough system!")
2. The scale, and character of audible differences audiophiles often attribute to changing cables are not "subtle" but are often declared as "so obvious, you’d have to be deaf not to hear it." With changes in all manner of sonic attributes. There is no reason to think such obvious differences require some Super Special system. Even a modestly priced, well designed speaker for instance can easily show you very subtle sonic differences (for instance, between one album master and another, even subtle remastering, etc).
I think it’s what you personally look for and enjoy. I like to hear the decay of the cymbals, great drum work, piano playing and like very complex jazz material some wires will give you more of what you personally look for. I think this more the case when you have digital front ends. That’s why to me the digital and the analog systems are different to me. Digital has its own set of challenges.
Listen to the howling mob of blockheads in the street, a trick or two with listening tests, and the whole crowd's on its feet. I'm with Doug Schroeder on this one--if it is not a significant change for the better, than it is most likely a waste of money. If you have heard a whole new level of sound when switching to a different IC, PC, of SC, which I have SOMETIMES, don't tell me cables don't matter! VERY SMALL changes in sound aren't worth the trouble and often the cost it takes to buy the new one and sell the other. The changes that are a new paradigm to you are just awesome, especially when you can do so for a small money difference.
@glupson. It’s is something that I see not just on this forum but others as well. The ability or choice to spend more seems to be looked down own. I didn’t make my buying decisions lightly. I did a lot of research and demoing before I purchased each piece. I paid a little more than most would consider. But I love my sound. @dorkwad I actually use the same reference Cable as Doug Schroeder in parts of my system. Clarity Cable. They half great treble extension, open midrange and soundstage, a little bump in the lower minds and the bass. Nice sound.
Very cool, Calvinj. I finally found the components I truly love the sound of. The last thing I did was move the sound a little more organic with the choice of cables. The Schroeder method of shotgunning the same cables so you have 2 sets of cables going to one component, made a great difference in the sound towards more realism.
Geoffkait: “A rich man has about as much chance of entering audio Nirvana as a camel has of passing through the eye of a needle."
That must be a really big needle.
Why is being rich/able-to-afford so frequently mentioned as a negative trait on this forum?
>>>>>I don’t think it’s a negative trait per se. I think it’s negative only because expense of equipment or cables is irrelevant to most of the discussions about sound. Owning expensive equipment does not automatically mean the owner has found audio Nirvana or that his system even sounds good. Nor can he automatically win arguments based on the expense of his system. Even when he swears up and down his system sounds awesome. That’s what we call a logical fallacy. Asking someone to list his system is not really a way to find out what that system sounds like or to prove that system/cable X sounds better than system/cable Z. There are no shortcuts to Xanadu. 😛
First, have to agree with calvinj that Clarity Cable is a very fine cable that on performance should have much greater place in the audio world, and very sadly it doesn’t.
Second, agree with dorkwad about the Schroeder Method, in my humble opinion it is one of those procedures that absolutely and conclusively shows how cables can have a positive effect on audio reproduction ( so obvious no double bind tests required ). Frankly, lo res, hi res, expensive, modest systems will all benefit from this upgrade. In fact, as a friend said, if you can’t hear the benefit might be a good time to find another hobby like golf, or something, anything that doesn’t require hearing acuity ( slightly paraphrased and explicates deleted )
And one more thing. Basically agree with geoffkait above about how system components in and off themselves can or cannot define how good it is at audio reproduction. At the very least until there is some discussion about the acoustic environment they are used in. Lets remember that the room is the most important audio component and which provides the largest contribution to the "sound" of a system ( some have pegged that contribution at about 50% ). Put a potentially great system in a crap room and guess what, there is an almost certainty that the great system will sound like crap ( with diminished ability to hear detail, nuance, and change, both large and small etc etc etc ).
I agree that being rich does not guarantee any kind of Nirvana and that the discussion about the sound should not include the price.
At the same time, more expensive equipment often does sound better than the cheap one. Reasons may be many, but expensive piece is frequently better than the significantly cheaper one. Of course, there are exceptions, many of them, to that observation. Still, at the end of the day, buying blindly (not even listening to it) $150 000 equipment is more likely to yield "better" sound than doing the same with $2000.
There are a few posts in this thread that are accurate, in my opinion, but not on the point. Incremental benefits of some more expensive products may not be worth the trouble for someone and may be perceived ridiculously expensive for such a small improvement to others, but they are still improvements. It is personal decision if it is worth it to the buyer. Many may say it is not, but every now and then someone may find $70000 power cord worthwhile. It depends, heavily, on the amount of disposable income and cannot be made as an universal statement what is worth it and what is not.
Now, of course, there is a question if that power cord makes a difference at all and that is the title of this thread anyway.
"Lets remember that the room is the most important audio component and which provides the largest contribution to the "sound" of a system ( some have pegged that contribution at about 50% )."
What about ears? More precisely, the level/loudness of sound. For some reason, that does not get mentioned while it is easily one of the most crucial components of perception of the sound. I am talking about physiologically normal ears working well, not limited due to aging, hairstyle, or whatever else.
EDIT: Having no experience with "expensive" cables, I cannot claim it but I suspect that ear-accommodation effects may trump benefits gained from cables. I am not trying to argue that cables do not matter, but just remind about another big variable in the story.
Like whether the sofa is covered with leather, or cloth ? And whether the cloth on that sofa is wool or synthetic ? And whether the stuffing in that sofa is wool or synthetic or down ? It all defines the diffuser/absorber you are sitting in.
It may be off the thread topic, but do they really make sofas with wool or down stuffing? My down jackets used to go flat quickly without me even sitting on them.
Yup, and they are not cheap, which is probably why they aren't in common usage. My parents had both, and they were sooooo comfortable, especially the down one ( and yeah they would go a bit flat but then you kinda tumbled it a bit and voila, tres fluffy ), and they do heat management really well ( which is something that became quite apparent when an upholsterer redid the down one and replaced the down with synthetic...and gawd was my dad pissed cause the boob had just totaled his Sunday afternoon nap spot )
Speaking of stuffing in chairs am I the only one who cannot tolerate the IKEA Poang Chair? You know, the cheap audiophile alternative chair, the one that’s stuffed with that same kind of foam as Sonex acoustic foam. Sonex has got to be one of the worst sounding materials ever foisted on unsuspecting and gullible audiophiles. Leather chairs, regardless of stuffing, are another irritant.
According to the picture on the Internet, that IKEA chair seems uncomfortable. Which one may claim for most, if not all, of the IKEA products.
The question arises, what is better investment for a $1000-2000? Good listening chair or a good cable of some kind?
EDIT: If I have calculated it right and IKEA chair is stuffed with same foam as Sonex acoustic foam, it may be cheaper to buy a few IKEA chairs and tear them apart than to buy Sonex foam itself. Of course, if one wants that Sonex foam in the first place.
OK, I won't waste time with made up words. Archimago has tested a boat load of cables over the years. His methodology is sound. His metrics show no change to many of the quantifiable specifications regarding hifi that have an effect on sonic character. If you get a chance, that is at least worth looking at.
From an epistemological point of view you wrote, "There are those of us that know that they make a difference based on the ability of your system to be resolving and transparent."
How do you really "know?" Via the sense of hearing, is that as reliable as science? Only you can say what you think there. The business with high resolving systems sounds rather elitist and takes away from your credibility. If you say you can hear something in the cables, how can you say at the same time no one else can if they don't have a resolving and transparent system? That sounds like hypocrisy to me. Who is to say that confirmation bias is not at work either? Someone spends $500 on a cable because they believe it will enhance the sonic performance of their system is going to be psychologically pre-disposed to hearing it. There is no way around that. How much so is up for debate.
Well I will say this. To each his own. In my system my choice of equipment and cabling work for me in my listening enviorment. Your room does play a major part in how your music sound. Positioning of speakers also play a major part. In my situation I’m basically locked in component wise. My system is very niche because of the brands I chose. They are great performers that most don’t know about so I think you should listen to your own ear to determine if the difference is worth it. I’m not going to go drop 5k on one Cable but I will spend a decent amount if I think a Cable brings out the little things that make enjoy my system more. It’s up to each individual to decide what he or she wants to do. Remember though you are the one listening to your system the most so you have to like it not anybody else. As far as hearing is concerned. Some can’t hear the difference. I actually can so for me and my ear enjoyment I will tweak with cabling a little. Enjoy everyone.
I may be wrong, but the fallacy that "some" seem to be making is people are purchasing cables without listening to them in their own system. I've listened to many different cables in my system. I have never purchased cables or anything based on cost.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
