Do active speakers interest you? Also, let's talk directivity
Hey all. Don't think I've ever made a thread here. This is a super interesting community for me. I'm an audio professional, a mastering engineer and music educator. I'm someone who differs from much of the pro community, in that I don't see a difference between "pro" systems and "high-end" systems.
There is one way they often differ, and that is in terms of directivity. Home systems are more frequently omni, while and studio or live sound requires directivity.
This was definitely the case in the 70s, back when audiophiles still had parties :D
It's very hard to set up a directional system to fill a large room evenly unless you use a line array.
But let's be honest. Aren't we mostly sitting and listening, and hoping for a good image? We aren't expecting every spot in a big room to sound exactly the same for every guest. Personally, my social life is 95% virtual now and I am generally listening in my mastering room. I have a high end system in every room in my house, but my wife uses the living room system more than me (and she has better taste in music, so it's nice to learn about some new artists when she decides to put something on from he collection).
Anyway, I'm designing an active system. Though the cabinet is not large, with a combination of Hoge's principles and active electronics, we will achieve accurate response through to 20hz.
The reason to choose an active crossover is very obvious. Sending power directly to each driver allows us to use a very low sensitivity woofer, which thus plays much deeper than expected. We are using a ported woofer and a sealed midrange/hi cabinet, which are not sold separately. An interesting feature is the the very low-crossed ribbon tweeter carrying all of the high midrange and treble
It's an 1800w system, aimed at both the professional and home market. I'm curious, does this sound interesting to anyone? We are intending to have a prototype ready by 2022, so it is a ways off.
Part of the directivity concept is also dealing with room issues. Cancelling the rear energy of the woofers can help. I am inspired by Bruno and Merjin (whatever his name :P). a big part of our concept has to do with advanced acoustic materials, which I don't want to discuss too much, as I don't think anyone else has thought of it or connected with that maker, yet
I have a pair of dynaudio focus 20 xd's in my office. they have DAC in addition to amps, and no wires needed other than power cord for files up to 24/192 or something thereabouts.
I this type of speaker is going to be very popular and is the way of the future. many people don't have the space for a big system, especially in an office or the kitchen (I have a Naim mu-so qb 2nd generation in my Kitchen--Roon Ready). the focus xd's are essentially a great sounding system and only comprise two boxes. if they were Roon Ready it would be almost perfect (but they don't sound anywhere near as good as my old C1s).
I could live with all sorts of different esoteric passive or active set ups, and have done over nearly fifty years of box swapping to experiment and aiming to hear the music better.
A rough chronology is......... Quad, Tannoy, Garrard 401 Naim 32.5-52, 110-135, IBL-DBL 47 Labs, Bauer dps, Linn Lp12, Linn Isobarik. Pass Labs, Mark Levinson, Cello Serafin actives ATC scm50asl actives, Meridian M2. Merlin TSM and VSM. Tannoy SRM15, HPD295,315,385. Chord Mono amps, Bryston 4SST. Hegel 360, Harbeth SHL5+.Ayon Triton III integrated, Escalante Fremont Mk2 (best passives owned). Lavardin Lecontoure Stabile 210, Tannoy Legacy Ardens.
Arriving at, expecting to be final system....
ME Geithain RL901K (K for Cardioid) with Ayon S-10 mk2 pre/network/streamer/Dac as front end with t/t and cd transport as further sources.
Gearslutz.com has much discussion on all makes of active speakers with studio professionals and Hifi people alike swopping comments.
The bitch about being a middle class audiophile is saving for a pair of dream speakers you heard at a shop or show bringing them home to have them sound awful. It’s happened to me more than once. Dsp active speakers, digital xovers, controlled directivity, time aligned bass and self powered. Whats not to like?
I am using the el-cheapo Behringer DCX and DEQ (and cannot report any sonic inferiority, there is even a firmware patch for the audiophiles ;-) and since I wanted to toss some extra money at the task , the dbx venu360.
Reason...I am constantly building speakers, no need for it, just pure ideas and fun.
Passive crossover do cost money if you want quality and higher order.
While that is offset by the need for 2nd and xrd amp once you have it (active xover and enough amps) it can't be beaten for flexibility. E.g. how is dialling back mid- level versus soldering in resistors? Or switching to a different xover type or order with a couple clicks vs. a lot of different value parts to be soldered/switched out? Same for time alignment, phase inversion at xover (actually that one is damn easy, but still soldering)..the list of plus(es) is long.
Try to grab your input in the digital domain (CD dig out, SPDIF or AES/EBU from devices like the Raspberry pi). It works with sampling analogue, but I cannot see a benefit.
I like the idea of active speakers with the amplifiers and active crossover not inside the speaker enclosure, it seems like a better idea because you could isolate the vibrations better. A passive crossover can also be used in a line level position.
B&W had an active speaker based on their DM 14/1400, the Active 1. It sounded a bit better than my Phase Linear 400 on my stacked 14's and 1400's, but newer amps are better. Currently, B&W has the 25 year old actual Nautilus four way speakers (not the numbered ones) still available. It is functionally an active system (requiring eight channels of 350 wpc) because the B&W supplied crossover is between the preamps and amps. I have not heard anything that I would swear sounds better. I do believe this works better than speaker crossovers, and is noticeably more efficient.
Active speakers can sound really good. Many yrs ago, I was scouting for a pair of new speakers and tested many brands and models. Finally settled for a Yamaha HS80 (about USD500/pr). At lower volume, it sounded as good as Harbeth LS5 with separate pre and power combo, same music used. I kid you not!
This yr, I feel that the HS80 is not giving me the dynamics slam as I crank up the volume due to the limiter feedback protection circuit. So I researched a bit and bought a pair of Neumann KH310A speakers. Cost about 7x more but the immediate dynamics and sound stage and clarity are better. This speakers sound more like USD12000 speakers, and I can crank up louder before limiter circuit restrictions kicks in. What makes these active speakers sound better is a power regenerator. I had a PS Audio but it blew. Now I’m using a UPS that can regenerate pure sine wave to power my gears. Works just as good, believe it or not. Make sure it is really pure sine wave and not sine wave simulated. The sound produce by AB amp speakers with the power regen sound like class A amp to my ears. It is really good, dark backgrounds, separation, soundstage, a bit of warmth, etc are all there. So my suggestion is, keep the ears and mind open. Active speakers, especially the studio monitoring ones, can sound very good too. ATC, Genelec, PMC, HEDD, etc make very good studio speakers that are also suitable for hifi listening at a more affordable price, that otherwise needs tens of thousands of dollars. BTW, I use a Macintosh C47 to run the speakers. A computer (for hi rez music), a AudioLab 6000CDT transport and a turntable are plugged into it. But the phono stage of the Mac I find only so-so, I prefer YBA, that phono was much better.
There are some great new/refined technologies coming in early 2021 that will be game changing for active speakers/speaker manufacturers, however I have little faith that the audiophile community will be willing to except or adopt them. Fortunately for me there are millions of music lovers around the world that actually buy audio equipment because it sounds great and don't get all hung up on details that continue to hamper audiophiles and their ability to further enhance they're own musical enjoyment because of pre-conceived ideals & perceptions. Personally, I wish the OP luck, I don't have the energy and will spend little of my time trying sell to a dying population segment who are not willing to accept that new technology can be superior.
I went with active speakers mainly because my wife didn't want a mountain of gear/cords cluttering up the room. Also, I can easily move the set up into my office and listen there when I feel like it. I have the DALI Callisto speakers and have been very satisfied. My only complaint is that they are not Roon ready.
Legacy focus xd active speakers with wavelet? I currently have the signature se. models and like them .but think the focus will be a big improvement . I have my room treated and have BHK PSAUDIOS separates with cat 5 morrow wiring and 2 SVS 3000 subs .... Can anyone from experience give me their thoughts on the situation???
Yes, whoever mentioned that DSP is much more accessible now is 100% correct. This is the route to take. They can be easily programmed and fitted into the unit, and are much more flexible than analog devices.
"Here is an audiophile who finds fewer components of interest."
Me too, but ... even with actives, you still may very well need at least one component upstream, unless your actives have a built-in streamer and that is your only source. Even if your actives do have a built-in streamer, chances are, you'll want a music server. Or something. At the very least, you'll have a power cord from each speaker, plus an ethernet cable going into one of them, plus a cable connecting the two. So much for reducing cable-clutter around the speakers. Especially if you're also connecting multiple sources such as a turntable in addition to a streamer.
I need an explanation here, there are wonderful DSPs for reasonable money readily available. Room correction, driver equalization, delay, phase, level , input in the digital domain, what is it you are missing? Those units were godsend after all those years with Op-Amps, initially you had to write efficient code but since almost 20 years the interface is much more user-friendly.
Thanks for the information about Joachim Kriesler. I've admired the ME Geithain monitors from afar, as I don't know how they get cardioid behavior well down into the bass region WITHOUT using a second woofer. They claim THREE octaves of cardioid behavior with their passive cardioid enclosure, and imo that's amazing.
Very pleased to see so many great suggestions & personal experiences. I had never spent all that time much time on the forum here, as from my browsing, it seemed about 50/50 in terms of knowledgeable people vs less-than-humble people.
I can't respond to everyone necessarily, and I may not remember all the usernames. Feel free to send me a message or ask me to phone you, one fellow did that and we had a good chat.
The DSP vs Analog crossover is the big, big question. It's starting to seem like room correction is going to be essential for future users. I have never use DSP correction, just soft density & accurate systems. Some sort of correction in the low frequencies is necessary, of course. I'm very lucky to just have a small null at 50hz. This null improves the sound of much modern electronic music significantly to my ears, and eases my reluctance to match 50hz in my own masters, if that makes sense.
Joachim Kriesler is known for M.E. Geithain studio monitors of Germany. I am more personally familiar with his older designs <1990. He's brilliant, and his 901-K does not emit rear energy. K stands for "Kardioid" in this case. He isn't the only one doing this sort of design, he's just doing a really spectacular job of it, and is a bit more famous than most people doing this sort of passive acoustic resistance.
Active speakers can be a real delight for DIY speaker builders. A good DSP like the DEQX unit I use with my fully horn loaded triamplified DIY speakers allows not only speaker correction, room correction, time and phase correction, etc. but also endless possibilities of crossover points and slopes and equalization. My DSP was reprogrammed more times than I can remember over a period of eleven years before I arrived at the quite accurate and pleasing configuration I currently use. Add to this the advantages of connecting amps directly to drivers and it is a sure winner.
The market for actives are non audiophiles and disgruntled audiophiles. With stereo less of a hobby and HT the market now what will sell is what will integrate with the tv room and be invisible with a remote to turn the voices up!
bosssound, there is a lot more complexity inside the speaker you can get rid of, the crossover. With my system there is no additional complexity at at. All the heavy lifting is done by the preamp which is connected to amps and speakers as usual. There are no additional components and better yet there is no streaming. The drop outs you get streaming are intolerable. I only use it for back ground music not serious listening on my Sonos network.
If you have a great system that images correctly you can go accurate with Hi Res digital or you can go romantic with vinyl. They both sound great.
Here is an audiophile who finds fewer components of interest.
Since each component requires connectors and a power cord, and they are important, to my ears, a small number of component means you can invest more in each piece and in all important room treatment. A system that sounds attractive is power supply -> streamer/dac-> active speakers. Active Speakers might have their own power supply separate from streamer/dac since the power needs of the speakers will be very different from source. Like your hesitation about implementing DSP for speakers given current SOTA or lack thereof. Peace.
11-09-2020 4:50am Have you ever seen an old school audiophile tapping his (her) feet? I believe they prefer the warm box colored sound because it makes a good sleep..
(The warmth etc. should be in the recording, not the speaker.)
Yes I have gosta. Tapping feet & bobbing head...it's not cute but I try not to judge it. ;-)
The warm box colored sound? A lot of audiophiles (they won't be on this thread) will call it musical or use words like natural or analog and talk about how Harbeth or DeVore brings them closer to the music....
In reality these passive systems take them farther away from the recording studio sound...by adding ambience, warmth, reverb, harmonics, etc.
I have a nice pair of curved aluminum billet studio monitors...active & DSP. They reproduce the sound of the recording very well. They are quite analytical and unforgiving. Bass quality, imaging, and instrument separation will destroy any passive design near it's price...
But I still don't listen to them much because they are not enjoyable. I prefer my lightly damped, thin walled, first order crossover monitors much more.
(The warmth etc. should be in the recording, not the speaker.)
Should be? That's a personal preference. Some audiophiles want as close to the recording as possible. Many others want sound that is better than the original recording (to their ears).
If you look at who is using euphonic warm reverb boxes and who uses studio monitors or Kii Three type speakers...you can see which camp folks are in.
OP, We have been selling our Apollo series speakers for a little over two years now. They are active and fully DSP controlled. We chose to offer our speakers with and without amplifiers. We designed our speakers to be very amplifier friendly so the owner can decide which amps to use. Anything from 1.5 watt SET amps to 150 watt SS and anything in between will work. Many potential customers already own amps so why not use them. Some people like tube amps and some like SS. We have found that many people like the option of using amps of their choice.
While designing our own drivers and speaker systems the below were some of our objectives:
1. Speaker-room
integration
2. Equipment
integration - Primarily amplifiers to speakers
3. High sensitivity –
From 1.5 watts to 150 watts
4. Power handling –
150 watts
5. Light membrane
driver elements
6. True line array
7. Dipole
8. Open baffle woofer
modules
9. DSP with advanced
auto room correction
10. Separate extended
range AMT towers and woofer modules
We feel our objectives have been successfully met as do our customers and many occasional listeners. Even though many people tell us our Apollo speakers sound stunning we still find it challenging to get people over the hurtle of embracing fully active DSP controlled speakers. My point is that we chose the less traditional path but feel it's the future. Time will tell. Good luck with your project.
djones, unless you listening to fax tones there is a DA conversion before final amplification. So you are saying your amps are in your speakers. There was one amp the TacT S 2175 which essentially was a power DAC. The conversion was done in the output stage of the amp. mehtayoungs, we are on the same page as is Roger Sanders of Sanders Sound Systems. Active crossovers are the way to go, digital active crossovers. I think the easiest way to go is with a digital preamplifier that contains enough channels and crossovers to suite. Such as this one https://www.trinnov.com/altitude-16/ It is marketed as a Home Theater preamp but you can use the channels for anything you want. It is pretty pricey but then all you have to add are the right amplifiers. Gain control is in the preamp so amps do not need anything. Then it is all about the speakers and the sky is the limit. The room is very important but you can minimize the problem by using directional speakers such as dipoles, line sources and horns. Point source dynamic speakers do not do it for me but this is what the vast majority use and there are some silly expensive ones out there. This is an exciting time for people who like to make their own speakers. Calibrated microphones with impulse measurement programs are readily available for relatively small cash. Units like the one above will not only provide active crossovers but will also time align the drivers. Room control can take care of whatever minor discrepancies are left. Using the right drivers, in the right enclosures and you easily obtain SOTA results.
I ditched my system after hearing active speakers and I tap my feet more now than before. The biggest hurdle will be getting audiophiles over their OCD and to listen with their ears instead of their eyes.
I think that audiophiles generally want a euphonic sound...adding depth and ambience to the master recording. Boxes and analog crossovers will do this.
When you engineer to eliminate the box sound and create an active DSP speaker to control the drivers, you basically have a Genelec studio monitor. Ruler flat response, amazing imaging, and great bass for the size....
but audiophiles will listen to these technical marvels and wonder why their feet aren’t tapping...no emotional involvement.
Imo really paying attention to directivity is part of getting "the basics" right. I applaud your emphasis on this typically under-appreciated aspect of loudspeaker design.
"To me, a soundsystem is an important health product..."
Very interesting point of view. Imo music can provide wide access to transcendental experience in a world where we have rationalized away just about every other path which might offer such.
"If you are familiar with Joachim Kriesler, he has a special method of dampening the rear energy of his speakers."
Who is Joachim Kriesler, and/or what speakers did he design?
Back to "the room": My very old house has dense log walls 1 foot thick. The floor and ceiling are not parallel and neither are the walls. Even with no room treatments or PEQ, a REW room sweep shows a nearly flat frequency response from highly directional floor standing speakers. Nevertheless, speaker placement and bass management still matter. A lot. So I wonder how well some of the better active speaker systems support subwoofer integration. For example do they support both high level and .1/LFE connections? High pass filtering? IMO, these issues are important, because subwoofers can play a big part in managing room effects. They also can play a big role in imaging, especially if your speakers need to be pulled away from the walls for the best soundstage (but not for optimal bass response).
I'm not as knowledgeable as most here and I know active doesn't mean all in the box but that's the way most are configured. There is a new company in Germany GGNTKT who uses an external box with the amps, crossovers and I believe DSP but not sure on that. I know the room is very important as well but I've found in my situation where I use my living room with the usual furniture, rugs, curtains , etc.. has worked very well. The D&D measured really nice from 200hz - 20klz from my listening position and I only needed to employ 3 filters below 200hz. I have 1 mode at 50hz I'm still working to get out but it's not a big deal just something to play with. Other than that the D&D are the speakers that got me more into active as the sound is stunning. I wish you luck, you're approach is interesting and I look forward to seeing your products.
gosta there are a few streamers that are roon ready and have AES3 out which is what I use. The Lumin U1 mini, Bel Canto eStream, Simaudio mind all of which I tried. Of those I liked the Lumin the best but I still miss old school remote at least for volume control so my next streamer I'm auditioning is the Auralic Aries G1 which has the ability to pair with any remote using the RC 5 standard.
[...] active has nothing to do with whether the amp is installed in the speaker or not. It refers to whether the crossover is before or after the power stage. Having an active crossover at line level and then using each amplifier channel’s full potential for only the frequency bands that the driver should receive opens up so many doorways as a designer that is doesn’t make sense to do it any other way now.
Exactly; many if not most are stuck with believing active necessarily means an all-in-one package, but as you point out the core distinction of active is simply that the filtration is done prior to amplification, and on signal/line level. I’ve been beating this horse for a while now, but to no avail really.
As consumers, we like to select components. That’s the fun part. And frankly, 95% of powered speakers have absolute crap amps. I get the resistance to letting the speaker designer pick your amp.
What is means in the best case scenario is a perfectly-matched and very convenient system. I have considered using an outboard processor, and then allowing the user to select their own amplification, but it’s not a simple amp setup - you need two channels of 150 watts @ 8 ohm and 1 channel of 600 watts @ 2 ohm, with the gains very precisely dialed for the voicing to be correct. I would need to personally attend every time the system was set up :P
When I converted to my present, all-active set-up from the previous one with passive main speakers and actively driven subs (meaning my 3-way passive main speakers were replaced with 2-way mains meant for active config.), I had enough outputs on my existing Xilica digital cross-over (that I had so far only used in conjunction with my pair of subs) to feed a pair of 2-way main speakers instead. This meant, after adding another stereo amp, that I had to apply the cross-over settings by myself (and later with the help of a friend for the fine tuning, who’s himself well versed using Xilica XO’s in his own system), and it was/is a great learning process while being as well so much easier since it’s done on the fly from the listening position via one’s laptop (or tablet).
I can understand the reticence among audiophiles to dive into setting up XO values by themselves - if ever considered, and in the digital domain no less - but once you get into the modular approach and overall technical understanding with all that entails (which, I believe, isn’t too much too ask of the audiophile who’s moderately technically savvy), it’s really freeing and only opens up the possibilities of choices. And I haven’t even gotten into the sonic advancements very potentially in the wait with active config.
Unfortunately, the hifi industry is fickle as anything, driven by nostalgia and consumer trends rather than science. In general, passive systems with perfect separate amps are going to be more accessible than true high-end active systems.
Indeed, the inertia and habits of what already exists weighs heavily. I know, because I’ve been there (i.e.: with passive config.) predominantly as well. From what I can understand quite a few developers/manufacturers are keen on going active, one way or the other, but can’t really find the costumers to embrace and support it; the bundled package robs Hi-Fi Joe or Jane of choices with amps and potentially DAC’s, in addition perhaps of a tactile sense of "what’s in the package?," and the separates solution - while allowing for flexibility and apart from the element of potential complexity - appears to have the physically visible digital XO/DSP rub some among the audiophile inclined the wrong way, or that’s my guess. Not to mention (the thought of) the possible addition of a A/D-D/A conversion process in the digital XO with analogue inputs only.
Pro stuff just isn’t cheap, and a whole generation of producers has been sold a lie that you can create great music without any dedication. That’s a whole other story. I support the democratization of the music industry for sure, but there is a dark side to it as well, which is getting quite off -topic now.
Whereas conversely in the realm of audiophilia pro products can be had relatively cheap, certainly compared to the segment of high-end audio gear against which a range of pro gear - again, cheaper at that - compares favorably to my ears.
I have a very different approach to midrange. Midbass and low mid coherence is very important. I’m a baritone vocalist and bass guitarist, so I don’t like it when the "power zone" is disembodied from the low midrange.
Most musical fundamentals are found between 150 and 600hz. This is what people people call "warmth" in music (trust that I’m willing to die on this hill, warmth = low midrange). That is the range of the fundamental tones of our voices.
330hz, the typical crossover point for the famous ATC 3" dome mid, this right in the heart of what we consider to be musical frequency. It is the critical midrange.
This is interesting, and I’d mirror those findings of yours in my own experience about the importance of the midbass and lower midrange. To leave this area untarnished of a cross-over is not trivial, sonically speaking, even when it may involve other compromises. My own 2-way main speakers comprise 2 x 15" woofers per channel run up to almost 800Hz while being high-passed at ~85Hz, and a horn-loaded 2" exit compression driver (w/3" voice coil) then covers the remaining band upwards. On paper at least a 3-way system could be preferable with such a driver constellation, and it may be in some variations, but I’m enjoying the audible positives as perceived with a 2-way system in this case vs. a 3-way (passive) ditto.
My design uses a 5.25" midrange crossed nearly 200hz lower. Of course, such a large midrange will beam if it is crossed too high, and like any 5" or larger driver (that I’ve found) the response starts to lose precision above 1000hz.
For many people, upper midrange, 1k-3k is the critical zone. Certainly, those frequencies are more present - they are what we call "presence" when we are discussing audio.
Our tweeter is planar, and we cross it much lower than standard, even lower than Dutch & Dutch 8c. It covers from 1k - 35khz, a phenomenal range for a single driver. What those numbers don’t tell you is the phenomenal resolution of both detail and dynamics.
The system uses two critically dampened cabinets. We will include an adjustable, non-resonant pole, so that the top will sit at the optimum height. In practice, the mid and top would be fairly close together, as the low driver will be about 20 inches off the ground. There will also be the option of using a very hefty stand and fully decoupling the bass driver from the floor.
Very interesting. A blatant suggestion: how about, at some point, trying out a high efficiency 12" midrange coupled to a high eff. horn- or waveguide-loaded AMT unit? A similar XO-region could be chosen, even.
Hi, great discussion. @mehtayoungs I will certainly be interested in your future speakers/system. Currently I run three separate systems in my main listening room. Stonehouse pre WW2 :-) but not without severe problems in the lower region which makes forceful dsp a necessity. Systems are analog active ATC 150, digital active D&D 8c, passive Revel Gem 2 with ATC subs. Source is normally Roon with added convolution filters. This week I started using the new feature in D&D with direct integration of REW filters. Very smooth. I really agree that the future is active/digital with the pros much exceeding the cons (if any). Here D&D gives their views of latency in the 8c speakers : https://dutchdutch.com/support/ Comments?
@djones51 You say that you use the 8c all digital. Does that mean you use the ehternet or the digital AES input? Have you found a streamer/source that is both Roon ready and has AES output? Which?
I would never claim to eliminate room problems. What most people don't realize is that your room is actually more important than your speakers. No matter what active electronics are used or DSP "correction" you perform, the shape of the chamber, position of speakers, wall and ceiling materials, and so forth, will ALWAYS play a huge factor.
The good news is that most rooms can be made to sound good. Most, not all. My house was built in 1930. If you can get a pre-WW2 house, go for it. I know, I know, most people aren't allowed to choose their house based on its acoustics, but to get something built like they used to do it would be wildly expensive now. Traditionally, homes were sealed tight, as heating was simply not a great option. Modern walls DO NOT pass the knock test, and guess what, that matters just as much as your speaker cabinets.
Professional studios that are not purpose-built usually get 2ft of the highest density mineral wool applied to every surface. This is sufficient dampening, and it's not that expensive for the materials, but it's a big pain. In my mastering room, I have 200lbs bass traps in the corners and a heavy diffuser at the first reflection point.
Now, again, some people prefer a live room, and that's fair. A critically dampened room is the goal, and most room are dreadfully resonant. People who listen to omni speakers often prefer lively rooms.
I'm not going to speak on that too much. I don't want to crap on anyone's preferences. There is no question that listening in an anechoic chamber is anxiety-inducing. That's not the goal, and it's a good thing that it's not, because we won't achieve it in our houses unless we invest millions.
@inorganic Yes, the famous ATC midrange. >300-3k. They used to sell them, but the mid driver is their bag. Guzauki-Swist is using that driver in a $30k system. Not sure if anyone else is able to get them from ATC at all now.
I have a very different approach to midrange. Midbass and low mid coherence is very important. I'm a baritone vocalist and bass guitarist, so I don't like it when the "power zone" is disembodied from the low midrange.
Most musical fundamentals are found between 150 and 600hz. This is what people people call "warmth" in music (trust that I'm willing to die on this hill, warmth = low midrange). That is the range of the fundamental tones of our voices.
330hz, the typical crossover point for the famous ATC 3" dome mid, this right in the heart of what we consider to be musical frequency. It is the critical midrange.
My design uses a 5.25" midrange crossed nearly 200hz lower. Of course, such a large midrange will beam if it is crossed too high, and like any 5" or larger driver (that I've found) the response starts to lose precision above 1000hz.
For many people, upper midrange, 1k-3k is the critical zone. Certainly, those frequencies are more present - they are what we call "presence" when we are discussing audio.
Our tweeter is planar, and we cross it much lower than standard, even lower than Dutch & Dutch 8c. It covers from 1k - 35khz, a phenomenal range for a single driver. What those numbers don't tell you is the phenomenal resolution of both detail and dynamics.
The system uses two critically dampened cabinets. We will include an adjustable, non-resonant pole, so that the top will sit at the optimum height. In practice, the mid and top would be fairly close together, as the low driver will be about 20 inches off the ground. There will also be the option of using a very hefty stand and fully decoupling the bass driver from the floor.
Modular approaches are not as easy to market. Fortunately, this is not modular. The active electronics are all contained within the bass unit, and although the top *could* be connected to another amp, this is forbidden, as without the active electronics, the drivers would certainly be damaged. Also, who wants to listen to music without low frequencies?
It can be set up in different ways, depending on what is required. With 1800 watts for the whole system, it could serve as a PA system for a small party. The poles will allow for standing-height listening, although that might be wishful thinking at this point.
Four years ago I demoed (is that a real word?) a pair of Kii's at home. I was using then horns from Avant Garde - Duo Beta's.
Though the duo's used active bass units, it was easy to see what I was missing. Both in terms of deep bass and intelligibility. Out with the horns, in with the Kii's.
Having said that, and with all the hype about directivity and shaped soundfields (in fairness, the shaping actually does work for bass) and perfect phase, I never bothered with room treatment, thinking it unnecessary.
A few weeks ago a friend insisted I roll up a small carpet and place it at any first reflection point. The effect was immediately obvious. Now all 10 early reflection points in my room have been treated. I never imagined this effect... Like focussing a camera.
So to the point which may sound a little crazy: when you finally present your speakers to the world it would be honest (not a good word? No offence meant) to offer 10 X 2 foot square foam abfusers (the new tech ones work in a way I would not have believed before trying) and a little mirror as an optional accessory. Cost under 100 bucks. Before making claims that room effects are 'minimised'.
This is one of the most interesting discussion threads I have read on this site. It has been most informative reading the back and forth answers. Plus, you smoked kenjit and he hasn't chimed back in -- which I consider a victory for you. Please keep us updated. Some of the discussion has been over my head at this point. I need to re-read and do some private research to catch up. Thanks!
@OccasionallyCurrent - Thanks so much, I deeply appreciate that. One thing that I am known for, locally and in my global network, is finding steals for people. It doesn't matter to me if it's from my inventory, I just want people to have the best audio they can afford. To me, a soundsystem is an important health product, not a luxury item. It's normal for houses to be outfitted with expensive appliances that facilitate daily living.
I'm not the type to listen to music all day. Listening to music has been about 50% of my work for a long time, and while I tend to love everything that gets submitted, ears to get fatigued. Similarly, I only cook once or twice per day. Regardless, if I had a substandard stove and oven, my life would be abysmal.
Although at this stage in the design, we are not cutting any corners (but rather, rounding them haha), we intend for this product to be accessible. We are just a group of audio nerds, based in the middle of nowhere. Someone mentioned aerogel - right on the money, although like they said, aerogel is too expensive for a commercial design.
We are looking at a new material which is gaining traction as a sound insulator. No one else is using it in audio. It has the same special quality as aerogel. It comes in bricks that must be hewn, so we won't be constructing the cabinets themselves from the material. Just the baffle, and for the rear cancellation.
DSP is a big thing these days. I have a couple hesitations.
1) Timing.
This is the big, BIG one. Linear phase equalization ALWAYS causes a delay for ANY DSP that I know of. Linear phase is important, it sounds much better in the high frequencies. If a subwoofer is crossed low enough, it doesn't require linear phase, the phase issues are not audible. Anything above 150hz and you could run into trouble. This has been my own observation and Linkwitz has confirmed it on his personal site. He's a very scientific guy, lots of respect for him. He's also open to anyone repeating his experiments and sharing their observations, he's not a stick in the mud.
For professional speakers, there cannot be any delay from input to output. I know that some of these very advanced developers have code and systems that have no noticeable delay. It's more my experiences performing on early DSP-processed systems telling me to wait until the technology is perfect in the same way that analog is now.
2) Proprietary code.
I have a DSP code researcher on the team, and I believe that within 5 years, we will be doing work in the DSP area. There is no doubt in my mind that it is the future, and as a mastering engineer, although I learned from someone who used only analog hardware to DAT tape, virtual DSP processors are now good enough, sonically speaking. Latency is the issue, and no one who has solved it is willing to share that knowledge (trust me, I've asked the bigwigs directly, and the answer was a resounding NO)
I'm glad I waited until I had something important to share, instead of becoming known as the guy who beaked all the SET enthusiasts who think that putting more than 1 watt into a driver is heresy (just a little tease - my first job at 14 years was as a comedy writer, and once habits form, y'know)
For a few years now I have been listening to ATC 50 scm active floor standing speakers. A midrange driver covering from about 380 Hz to 3200 Hz, the entire midrange with no crossover. The amps are 200, 100, and 50 watts for the lower, mid and highs. Magnet structures are immense. Very musical, articulate, and you will hear things you hadn’t on other speaker systems. It is easy to distinguish one grand piano from another, and that is a game we play with musical guests...and more. These speakers are exceptional, and with a great front end and superior ICs the musical presentation is embracing. Let me add that adding a regenerator to the setup was worth every cent. Really good active speakers are not inexpensive . Every part has to be worthy.
I’m running a pair of Focal Core 6 Be 40th on stands balanced direct from my TT2/MScaler stack. Took a long time to break in but I love it. Still searching for that ideal interconnect.
I think if you treat “the chain” well—use quality cables, treat your power, actives can be fantastic.
I like the concept of active speakers, but worry about parts availability and maintenance. I also have a strong preference for sealed vs ported woofers. I think DSP will work better with flush to the wall drivers.
This is a fantastic post, and based on your writing and description of your systems alone, I am intrigued.
I, too, have a background in audio engineering. As a young 20 something, I worked in Nashville for a couple of years at RCA Studio A and at East Iris Studios.
East Iris Studio A was a Michael Cronin designed room. In many ways, I had some of my greatest listening experiences in that room. I wish I had taken it in more back then.
The systems you are talking about designing would far exceed my price point, but I would love to see what comes of your ideas.
So glad I took the plunge and posted my concept here. Loving the feedback.
Mijostyn, active has nothing to do with whether the amp is installed in the speaker or not. It refers to whether the crossover is before or after the power stage. Having an active crossover at line level and then using each amplifier channel's full potential for only the frequency bands that the driver should receive opens up so many doorways as a designer that is doesn't make sense to do it any other way now.
As consumers, we like to select components. That's the fun part. And frankly, 95% of powered speakers have absolute crap amps. I get the resistance to letting the speaker designer pick your amp.
What is means in the best case scenario is a perfectly-matched and very convenient system. I have considered using an outboard processor, and then allowing the user to select their own amplification, but it's not a simple amp setup - you need two channels of 150 watts @ 8 ohm and 1 channel of 600 watts @ 2 ohm, with the gains very precisely dialed for the voicing to be correct. I would need to personally attend every time the system was set up :P
Unfortunately, the hifi industry is fickle as anything, driven by nostalgia and consumer trends rather than science. In general, passive systems with perfect separate amps are going to be more accessible than true high-end active systems.
One thing you need to desperately avoid is a cheap active system, like the KRK Rokit or Yamaha HS series.Those are nearly fraudulent products, as they claim to have an accurate response good enough for professionals. As a mastering engineer, I can identify when a mixing engineer has used either of these systems - a KRK Rokit mix has blaring mids, a Yamaha HS mix is dull. Almost always!
Pro stuff just isn't cheap, and a whole generation of producers has been sold a lie that you can create great music without any dedication. That's a whole other story. I support the democratization of the music industry for sure, but there is a dark side to it as well, which is getting quite off -topic now.
Thank you for the feedback about sealed vs ported. This is a long standing debate. I believe in plugged ports, not open vents. My mentor, Barry Ober, is of the same mind as you. Zero reason to do a ported box in this day and age.
I'm not a stubborn person. One of my good qualities is that I'm very open to feedback. I have an alternate bass module design that is absolutely tiny. Active EQ is the ticket here. I have a 19hz response driver in sealed box with an F3 around 56hz. Just need to do some math and electronics design. This has been hugely beneficial, thank you all - back to the drawing board, as they say.
SynPar of Saskatoon, Saskatchewan is the name to follow in this case
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