DIY speaker isolation base for a wood floor

Thanks for chiming in Quincy. I'm sold on the pucks too

Installed the Sorbethane pucks.   Listening to Billy Joel right now, and just got done listening to Exodus.... I'm sold.  Good post!  I bet it helps many members.  Good mod!

You dont respect people's opinions. They are simply here for your entertainment. Do you want to go down the rabbit hole with me? You ruin every post here

Well after talking to Fastenal face to face I have decided to abandon the sprungs for now unless someone can guide me. The rep saud that's a tough spring to find. I need a short fat one for stability. Now way am I going to risk my speakers tipping over

Bass is better on Madonna's Erotica. I can't remember lyrics worth a dang but sounds I do remember. I don't listen to lyrics much anyway. Maybe I will try springs on down the road

Ok the sorbethane is toning some things down. On The DBs  Long Train Running the 2nd ryhthm guitar is not as prevelant but sweeter. No a bad thing. I do have to listen harder to hear it. Unless the power coming into my house right now has been filtered by the audio gods, I'm hearing a positive difference. I can see why some songs people might say it takes away detail and smears But it might be system and listener dependent .But time will tell. 

Something is going on here. I replayed Boz Scaggs Low Down and Lido Shuffle and his voice was strident on certain passages before. It is definitely much smoother and not shrill. I will have to listen more to make sure the sorbathane is not smearing or making the bass mushy. Positive first impressions here. Spin baby spin

Thanks Georgehifi! The sorbethane came in today from the eBay seller you showed me. Playing the first couple of songs of the Chicago CD I had listened to last. It sounds wonderful. Maybe placebo but I will know later tonight. I got some more springs but not wide enough and too narrow. I'm still going to try the spring method as Geoff likes some day. Right now things are sounding good!

mitchagain

I know an engineer and he has restaurant clients that have him calculate how often that they need to tighten the screws on a ceiling mounted beer mug holder that you typically see in a bar.

The reason for this is primarily vibrations from vehicle traffic. If the screws aren't periodically tightened, then the beer mug rack will eventually come crashing down

I guess this engineer doesn't believe in lockwashers.

I know an engineer and he has restaurant clients that have him calculate how often that they need to tighten the screws on a ceiling mounted beer mug holder that you typically see in a bar.

The reason for this is primarily vibrations from vehicle traffic. If the screws aren't periodically tightened, then the beer mug rack will eventually come crashing down. Based on this example, I'd say vibration issues is a real thing.

Goeffkait, can you use that expertise and review my math wrt the spring resonance for the OP?


Blueranger, what is the spring constant of the new springs (57 lb rated)?   As your platforms are not overly large, shorter springs as well would be "safer" due to less angular movement (say if you bang into them).

If the room us vibrating the walls are already enormous speakers.


When the woofer is already moving way more from say turntable rumble and your music is riding on top of that, does seismic motion matter? Seismic motion us predominantly <10 Hz and quickly drops off from their to 200hz, opposite to the Fletcher Munson curves so seismic movement would need to be more substantial to be an issue but again, the giant speaker walls are going to be orders of magnitude more an issue.

The argument for isolating speakers from structural vibration. isolation is a two way street. ↕️

“Max Townshend has a theory as to why they have so much effect and that’s that micro tremors in the ground are greater in amplitude than the amount of movement in a loudspeaker cone. I wrote about it here a couple of years ago but essentially there is a continuous movement in the ground produced by the earth itself and increased by factors like road traffic and even sea waves. This might seem far fetched but it’s difficult to establish why isolating a speaker should be quite as beneficial as it is. In my system the equipment is supported on a similar isolation system, so it’s not as if you are reducing the amount of vibration getting to the hardware. Townshend’s demonstrates this effect by putting tablet computers on two identical speakers, each device running an app that reveals vibration at different frequencies. One speaker is spiked the other on a Seismic Podium, all you have to do is tap the floor with your foot to see how much the spiked speaker moves, and conversely how still the isolated one stays. And if music is played through another system the spiked speaker vibrates but the isolated one doesn’t, so one reason why isolation helps is that the music itself vibrates the floor and creates a low level form of feedback.”

Thanks audiozenology. I'm going through the myriad of springs Fastenal carries. So I should pick one that approaches its max spring capacity? They do have some in stock that has a mx bearing of 57 lbs each. Should I get those?

blueranger,

Quick calc says your resonant frequency is about 6Hz. That does not feel right, but perhaps geoff can check my math. I was assuming 134lbs (2x granite + speakers). That do a pretty good job at isolating most stuff over 20Hz (will be down 10x at 20Hz). Another slab of granite is not going to make much of a difference in the isolation.

People in little places , and theres billions of them. Wouldnt fit these in there places . I feel a strong spousal dispute. 

Speakers are 42 inches tall.

It sounds to me like your springs are more suitable for a 400 LB speaker. The spring rate of the system is the spring rate of a spring x the number of springs.

Thanks Geoff here is what I know.
102 lb load rated springs.
Spring constant 126.25 lbs per sq inch.
1.375" OD x 0.177" steel wire and 2.75 " length.
The slabs weigh 32 lbs and I  have four
The speakers are around 72 lbs.
I can get more when I go to town. I can't wait to try these. Thanks

The granite slabs should be fairly large in dimension, maybe 18x18. 24x24 would be even better, more stable. If you can find one slab two inches thick, use that but only one slab. You want to reduce Center of Gravity height, not increase it. How heavy and tall are the speakers?

Use as many springs as you need to get the whole thing stable. Minimum 4. Might need more than 4. Did you calculate the spring rate of the springs based on total mass of speaker + Granite?

Ok Geoff I'm trying your idea of springs and a granite slab or 2. I would assume 2 stacked would be better. I'm going with nothing in between. I'm picking up the springs Monday. I will tinker with that. I will then see if the sorbethane between the slabs is a bust with the springs. Maybe skip that and go with the spikes. Thanks for your expertise here and thank everyone else for there sometimes passionate opinions.

I concur granite is an excellent material, no doubt due to its inherent stiffness and mass (inertia). I have been using granite with my springs for isolation for more years than I care to remember, assuming I could remember. Ha ha Another excellent material is a slab of Bluestone, I.e., paving stone, a similar but less expensive choice. Available at many but not all Home Depot. The mass and stiffness of these slabs are just what the doctor ordered to push back against the bending forces 🔄 of seismic waves. The springs are rather good at dealing with vertical forces. 🔝

twoleftears
1. Do Isoacoustics Gaias + cups isolate?

>>>>Yes

2. I didn’t say that. I said that via youtube and computer speakers that that was what the difference sounded like to me. I wasn’t in the room, nor, I suppose, were you.

>>>>>I don’t have to be in the room to appreciate how isolation affects the sound.

I have had great results with Granite as a singular material.
I have improved on these results by adding additional materials and isolation implements.

Chipboard, is not a usual go to material, but it has merit for what it can do.
It has many densities available and is a great at eating external energies, as it is produced in various compressed states , it can be swapped out for other types and can be almost attenuated to suit a individual taste.

To produce the base,
I couple the Chipboard to the floor on spikes.
I put my Granite flat onto the Chipboard, I start out with no isolation separation devices.
I then put the Speakers onto the Granite and have a listen, I will use a variety of devices to isolate the Speakers from the Granite, from Cork, to Foam and Rubber, and then Spikes direct or spikes into a receptor base.
When this is as good as it can be on the ear, live with it for a period of time, and then see if there is a further benefit to be got, by using isolation devices of the same used materials between the Granite and Chipboard.

The above was the old way using available materials collected over many years.

Today, I would say, get a Slab of Granite or Chipboard on Spikes or both together if they are available as referred to in the above to be used as the base.
Here is the next requirement that has been developed from trialling different isolation devices on a range of speaker types.
Use dedicated Isolation Suspension Devices.
My experience started with the Solid Tech 'Feet of Silence' being re-purposed to a position under a lightish weight speaker, as well as Audio Technica AT-616 Pneumatic Footers.
They were set up under a individuals speakers who was close to purchasing Townsend Isolation for their speakers.
What was already a high quality presentation from a three way cabinet speaker with a dedicated base, was much improved with the addition of the suspension/isolation devices, and on the isolation devices removal,
it was very evident of the much improved SQ that was just being heard.
The individual bought the Townsend Products as the result.

At a later date a similar set up was placed under a Stand Mount Coaxial Horn Speaker, the owner of these is anal about detail retrieval, and had spent much time with his bases, where a sand box and African Black Wood was in use.
The Suspension/Isolation footers were sat directly onto a timber flooring, and to say the outcome was night and day, would be the best.
The Speakers owner has now built their own Suspension Bases using a platform that is suspended on O Rings, so there is a DIY option if a little thought goes into it.

Another option but not trialled by me but that is getting great feed back, is a method being carried out by a local group of HiFi enthusiasts, after hearing my 'Feet of Silence' under equipment there was a search put on to source a device that was much more affordable and comparitive in performance.
The group now believe this has been discovered, in the form of IsoAcoustics Pucks.
On hearing about the results that were being had under speakers with my devices, they Pucks were used under Quad ESL Speakers, the reports I have received are on par with my above reports on the improvements being detected.
IsoAcoustics have a range of devices, and there is a good used market as well,  to allow for a cheaper entry into any trialling if so wished.
The used market might also allow for the purchase to be comparative to the outlay required to produce a DIY version of a Suspension Device.

I hope this helps with your enquiry.               
 
  

Was just dreaming up an ideal solution....and having a bit of fun. Dreaming aside this is some tough sledding and will always fall on the side of best efforts and never hit an ideal solution. Like isn't a mechanical diode kinda like a holy grail thing, often searched for, but never found ?

Sorry for the fun-ing.

It’s perhaps no obvious but the primary issue with isolating speakers is the center of gravity makes it very difficult or impossible to isolate big speakers with high center of gravity without resorting to making the arrangement of springs very wide, much wider than the footprint of the speaker cabinet. That’s why the Townshend speaker pods are integrated into an adjustable frame. Thus the springs can be located to the front and back of the speaker, increasing lateral stability so that the speakers won’t be so wobbly. For subwoofers or heavy components with relatively low centers of gravity springs can be placed directly under them without all the hoopla.

1. Do Isoacoustics Gaias + cups isolate?

2. I didn't say that.  I said that via youtube and computer speakers that that was what the difference sounded like to me.  I wasn't in the room, nor, I suppose, were you.

Isolation doesn’t sound anything like nudging up the volume a bit. So you think It’s a giant conspiracy designed to suck the money out of naive and gullible audiophiles? You and Ethan Winer. I bet you didn’t predict I would say that.

@blueranger   No, you got it wrong.  It's the speaker cables that you're supposed to suspend from the ceiling with monofilament.

Utterly predictable responses from gk.

Moving on. The RMAF 2018 Isoacoustics demo is very impressive, and the difference is clearly audible even with youtube "fidelity" and computer speakers. Still, I am just a tiny bit suspicious. The nature of the "improvement" that I hear could also be achieved by nudging up the volume control a tad.

Can you explain how you have a damped buckling isolator ... and none of the issues damping brings to the table?  I understand what a mechanical diode is.

all you need is a critically DAMPED buckling isolator tuned to an appropriate frequency for isolation
....and a mechanical diode to take care of all the speaker vibrations, and without the phase issues DAMPING brings to the table.

You will find that Ethan gets 0 respect here from certain people. I am not one of those people. I don’t agree with him on everything he says, but more often than not he is right. Is he completely right here? While I think he did his best to measure, I am not sure metrology is his strong point, and as he admits, it is a difficult measurement due to consistent positioning. A THD or IM measurement would be less sensitive to position and yield more repeatable results. He was only measuring how the speaker behaved, not if floor coupling was at all a factor. For the frequency response, it is just not an accurate enough measurement in his environment. If you look closely at the impulse responses, for which the resolution is very poor in both the temporal domain and the SPL domain, there does still appear to be noticeable differences. Is height a factor? Maybe. I would have like to seen a measurement farther as well to take into account potential floor interaction (or lack thereof).


One serious issue in the Townsend video is they only take into account the motion of the very light speaker cone w.r.t. how the cabinet would move. This is an incorrect model as it only takes into account reactionary mass (sort of like a rocket where you are "throwing" mass so to speak). In a speaker, the air is a mechanical loading. You are not just moving the cone, but moving the air, and in front of the cone, pressurizing it, so the mechanical force is more than just the mass of the air as well. Put your hands on a wall when loud bass is playing. You can feel it. That is the energy that cone is transferring.

blueranger OP636 posts01-04-2020 3:11pmInteresting article from a snake oil sleuth. I have wondered too if the change was somewhat due to speaker height. I swear my DIY speaker isolation base made a worthwhile difference when I played Madonna’s "Erotoica" and Al Stewart’s "On the Border" The bass seemed better controlled and deeper. I dont want to think that the expense of time and 💰 money was wasted. That earlier video of the RMAF show was impressive. So according to the article he didn’t test that guys product did he? So I’m thinking maybe my DIY speaker isolation platform is making a small but positve step closer to audio nirvana.

Speaking of hanging speakers from the ceiling that’s not a terrible idea. I suspended LS3/5a speakers from eye hooks in the ceiling using bungee cords of just the right springiness. That was forty years ago.

Geez, I don’t get what all this is all about.....all you need is a critically damped buckling isolator tuned to an appropriate frequency for isolation....and a mechanical diode to take care of all the speaker vibrations, and without the phase issues damping brings to the table.

Easy peazy.

And then everything will be quiet on the Eastern Front.

Just in case no one noticed this in the Max Townshend video of speaker isolation using springs under speakers works two ways - (1) it prevents mechanical feedback to the front end electronics via the floor and (2) it reduces the vibration of the speaker cabinets themselves. There is a third way, too, preventing seismic vibration from being transmitted from the floor to the speakers, but that seems trivial to me. Yes, I know what some of you are thinking, “Gosh, aren’t speakers like musical instruments 🎻 and supposed to vibrate?” 😳

Oh I did see that Iso Acoustics was tested. So maybe the speakers distance apart had the biggest impact. Ah I like the looks of my bases. If I say this beach is secure. This beach is secure!!!!

geoffkait"Spring systems are not wobbly unless you push down on them."

Of course that is true this is like the old joke.

Patient: It hurts when I do this.
Doctor: Then don't do that.

Interesting article from a snake oil sleuth. I have wondered too if the change was somewhat due to speaker height. I swear my DIY speaker isolation base made a worthwhile difference when I played Madonna's "Erotoica" and Al Stewart's "On the Border" The bass seemed better controlled and deeper. I dont want to think that the expense of time and 💰 money was wasted. That earlier video of the RMAF show was impressive. So according to the article he didn't test that guys product did he? So I'm thinking maybe my DIY speaker isolation platform is making a small but positve step closer to audio nirvana.

@audiozenology, are you hot dogging me? You probably should read what blue ranger wrote one more time. Spring systems are not wobbly unless you push down on them. Duh! You are nothing if not argumentative. Why It’s almost like you don’t know anything about it. 

Eureka!!!!! I have the answer!!! Suspend the speaker from the ceiling!!!! Case closed! Well NOT. Oh thanks foe the link. I have rad about half. Going back now

Ethan Winer. Lots of laughs! 😃

Twoleftears,


Note what I posted earlier in the thread. The primary coupling is acoustic. 

Got a good laugh out of claiming the cabinet does not move in one sentence to claiming large floor coupling the next. Which is it?   Could acoustic coupling be a primary mode of coupling to the floor ... after all, where is the energy coupled, to the cabinet or to the air?

I never said the spring would oscillate with music though with some of the platforms with their rubber springs they actually would. With a well chosen basic steel spring it will not. However as the op stated he found it wobbly and does not like it. Most don't find damped systems wobbly, to that end damping his spread would give most of the benefit of isolation you promote with a system they can live with. 


Granite would be excited by vibrations at higher frequency, but given the mass and relatively low energy at those frequencies it's not going to create audible issues.


The spring only system will not help to damp cabinet vibrations. Damped system will.


Blueranger, you may have a half decent measuring device in your hand right now. Your phone has a multi-axis accelerometer. There are programs for logging / testing. Bandwidth is limited but frequencies are usable.  I have a range of accelerometers in the lab, we can also do non contact, but for a speaker cabinet that is not really needed.

Someone is being argumentative again. The springs don’t oscillate while music is playing. Don’t push down on the springs when the music is playing. That is the same silly argument people use for granite, that is rings when you strike it will a metal object. Well, don’t strike it with a metal object while the music is playing. Duh!