The argument for isolating speakers from structural vibration. isolation is a two way street. ↕️ “Max Townshend has a theory as to why they have so much effect and that’s that micro tremors in the ground are greater in amplitude than the amount of movement in a loudspeaker cone. I wrote about it here a couple of years ago but essentially there is a continuous movement in the ground produced by the earth itself and increased by factors like road traffic and even sea waves. This might seem far fetched but it’s difficult to establish why isolating a speaker should be quite as beneficial as it is. In my system the equipment is supported on a similar isolation system, so it’s not as if you are reducing the amount of vibration getting to the hardware. Townshend’s demonstrates this effect by putting tablet computers on two identical speakers, each device running an app that reveals vibration at different frequencies. One speaker is spiked the other on a Seismic Podium, all you have to do is tap the floor with your foot to see how much the spiked speaker moves, and conversely how still the isolated one stays. And if music is played through another system the spiked speaker vibrates but the isolated one doesn’t, so one reason why isolation helps is that the music itself vibrates the floor and creates a low level form of feedback.” |
It sounds to me like your springs are more suitable for a 400 LB speaker. The spring rate of the system is the spring rate of a spring x the number of springs.
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The granite slabs should be fairly large in dimension, maybe 18x18. 24x24 would be even better, more stable. If you can find one slab two inches thick, use that but only one slab. You want to reduce Center of Gravity height, not increase it. How heavy and tall are the speakers?
Use as many springs as you need to get the whole thing stable. Minimum 4. Might need more than 4. Did you calculate the spring rate of the springs based on total mass of speaker + Granite? |
I concur granite is an excellent material, no doubt due to its inherent stiffness and mass (inertia). I have been using granite with my springs for isolation for more years than I care to remember, assuming I could remember. Ha ha Another excellent material is a slab of Bluestone, I.e., paving stone, a similar but less expensive choice. Available at many but not all Home Depot. The mass and stiffness of these slabs are just what the doctor ordered to push back against the bending forces 🔄 of seismic waves. The springs are rather good at dealing with vertical forces. 🔝
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twoleftears
1. Do Isoacoustics Gaias + cups isolate? >>>>Yes 2. I didn’t say that. I said that via youtube and computer speakers that that was what the difference sounded like to me. I wasn’t in the room, nor, I suppose, were you. >>>>>I don’t have to be in the room to appreciate how isolation affects the sound. |
It’s perhaps no obvious but the primary issue with isolating speakers is the center of gravity makes it very difficult or impossible to isolate big speakers with high center of gravity without resorting to making the arrangement of springs very wide, much wider than the footprint of the speaker cabinet. That’s why the Townshend speaker pods are integrated into an adjustable frame. Thus the springs can be located to the front and back of the speaker, increasing lateral stability so that the speakers won’t be so wobbly. For subwoofers or heavy components with relatively low centers of gravity springs can be placed directly under them without all the hoopla.
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Isolation doesn’t sound anything like nudging up the volume a bit. So you think It’s a giant conspiracy designed to suck the money out of naive and gullible audiophiles? You and Ethan Winer. I bet you didn’t predict I would say that.
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Speaking of hanging speakers from the ceiling that’s not a terrible idea. I suspended LS3/5a speakers from eye hooks in the ceiling using bungee cords of just the right springiness. That was forty years ago.
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Just in case no one noticed this in the Max Townshend video of speaker isolation using springs under speakers works two ways - (1) it prevents mechanical feedback to the front end electronics via the floor and (2) it reduces the vibration of the speaker cabinets themselves. There is a third way, too, preventing seismic vibration from being transmitted from the floor to the speakers, but that seems trivial to me. Yes, I know what some of you are thinking, “Gosh, aren’t speakers like musical instruments 🎻 and supposed to vibrate?” 😳 |
@audiozenology, are you hot dogging me? You probably should read what blue ranger wrote one more time. Spring systems are not wobbly unless you push down on them. Duh! You are nothing if not argumentative. Why It’s almost like you don’t know anything about it. |
Ethan Winer. Lots of laughs! 😃 |
Someone is being argumentative again. The springs don’t oscillate while music is playing. Don’t push down on the springs when the music is playing. That is the same silly argument people use for granite, that is rings when you strike it will a metal object. Well, don’t strike it with a metal object while the music is playing. Duh!
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Trying to damp spring oscillation is a fool’s errand. For one thing they’re not really oscillating. Where did you get that cockamamie idea? The springs only move when you push down on them. Hel-loo! My springs and probably all springs sound best with no damping. This is not rocket science, folks. You’re making a mountain out of a molehill. Give the the right spring and I’ll isolate the world. audiozenology is trying to make this into some sort of debate. There is no debate here. This is an obvious case of too many cooks spoiling the broth. And don’t flatter yourself. We don’t agree on anything.
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Pushing up and down on the springs when they’re set up is a good way to measure the resonant frequency Fr of the system. With a stop watch count the number of complete up and down cycles and divide the total by 10. If properly set up you should be able to get down to 2-3 Hz (cycles per second).
I like granite slabs a lot because they are very stiff against bending forces. But I eschew rubbery things in the context of isolation. I suggest very hard cones for mounting and stay away from Sorbothane, cork, rubber, etc. as soft Springy materials store or block energy and interfere with the actual springiness of the springs. Energy should be allowed to exit the system as rapidly as possible.
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Springs are supposed to be “wobbly.” Springs need only be stiff enough for stability. The best isolation is achieved when the component can move most freely in the directions of isolation. The spring rate (springiness) of the springs should ideally be matched to the load to obtain the lowest resonant frequency of the system. |
My original Nimbus Sub Hertz Platform used a SINGLE geometrically correct airspring. It was a convoluted Goodyear rubber airspring that expanded to a height of about six inches with 35 LB of pressure. It was three inches in diameter. The advantage of a single airspring is that you get much lower resonant frequency for the system. That’s how I got below 1.0 Hertz in some directions. The Nimbus was also designed to achieve isolation in six directions.
The problem for a single single in case it’s not obvious is that it is very unstable for any load above about five LB. So I used a clever system of horizontal springs located at the bottom of the airspring to provide the necessary lateral support so that components up to 40 pounds could be isolated with stability. Otherwise the airspring would just flop over. I also incorporated a large auxiliary air canister that was connected to the airspring with a brass air fitting. The top plate of the Nimbus was connected via four 3’ long steel rods to a sub-plate located below the aux air canister. 60 LB of dead weigh were placed on the sub plate to lower the center of gravity, required along with the lateral spring system to achieve stability under load.
The Nimbus was also tricked out so that the top bolt holding the airspring to the top plate was adjustable so that the top plate could be made perfectly level after setup. The “perfect geometry” of the airspring is defined as very small surface area on top and very large internal volume. Hence the large air canister. Voila! 🤗 |
I mean no disrespect but I put that horrid blue EAR stuff almost as low on the totem pole as Sorbothane. EAR rubber grommets, sheets and feet look so darn cool, too. Oh,well, onwards and upwards, guys. Anybody actually listen to this stuff or is the March of the Lemmings to the sea? Marigo VTS Dots constrained layer dampers are a no brained. Marigo has various sizes for a multitude of applications, including but not limited to, bottom of glass of vacuum tubes, speaker diaphragm cage, tonearm base, turntable platter, speaker drivers themselves, power plugs, glass windows and sliding doors, walls, printed circuit boards, speaker cabinets.
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I agree cork is a wonderful audiophile material, I use pure natural cork for my Quark! product for damping capacitors, printed circuit boards and transformers. I eschew the composite glued up stuff which is probably what people are mostly using, assuming anyone is using cork which they probably aren’t.
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I repeat - you can’t see the forest for the trees. I already explained it to you. You’re obsessed with challenging me. This conversation can serve no purpose any more. |
Sorbothane is one of the worst materials ever foisted on naive and gullible audiophiles. I put Sorbothane in the same category as SONEX and lead. Sorbothane is just another pretender. There are many black semi-soft viscoelastic materials that audiophiles have used for resonance control. Sorbothane is actually on the bottom of the list of ones I’ve experimented with. Sorbothane seems like such a good material, not too soft, not too hard. Little bit why audiophiles think lead is a good damping material. LOL
People would be far off in the long run 🏃♂️if they follow my suggestion of mass-on-spring isolation for their isolation needs and look around for an effective viscoelastic material for their constrained layer damping materials. It’s far better to leave things undamped than to over-dump in the great word of Acoustic Revive.
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blueranger OP
So, sorbethane (sic) in place of cones or springs to couple to floor.? If I had sone extra funds I’d play around with both. >>>>>Sorbothane is a shock absorber. That’s why they use it in shoes. It’s not an isolator. You’re not trying to isolate yourself. Hel-loo! |
Ironically I don’t sell to members here. That would be too icky. It’s also against my company policy to sell to knuckleheads.
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Uh, as usual in these case you can’t see the forest for the trees. An ordinary man has no means of deliverance. Blinded by science. 😎
Good wiki skills, however. Credit where credit is due. 😬 |
You say no, I say yes, you say hello. I say goodbye. |
Shock absorbers are air springs or gas springs. They’re springs. You say no, I say yes, you say hello, I say goodbye. Goodbye! |
Two things. Even through the cement slab is very thick and stiff it still moves right along with the movement of the ground due to traffic 🚗 🚙 , subways 🚊 trains 🚞 ocean waves 🌊 on the shore, Earth 🌍 crust motion. The entire house moves. And it moves in 6 directions! 🔛 🔝Springs under components are not “bouncy” as you are imagining them - they actually don’t move visibly when in operation. It’s the combination of mass + springs that provides the mechanical low pass filter. So the object being isolated moves much less with springs under it than without springs. It’s like springs (shock absorbers) on car wheels - they provide a smoother ride, not a rougher ride on solid road surfaces. The more things you isolate with springs the better the bass performance becomes. More dynamic, more slam, lower in frequency and more detailed.
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You say yes, I say no. You say stop, I say go. You say hello, I say goodbye.
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Let your fingers do the walking. 🚶🏻See link below for diagram and description of negative stiffness. Simple springs, on the other hand, are just that - simple. Simple and elegant. You are not my muse. You’re my stalker. http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/minusk/platform.html“Give the right spring and I can isolate the world.” - Machina Dynamica |
Somebody woke up on fhe wring side of the bed. I’m feeling a lot of angst Nd frustration. 😩 You are still my favorite internet scientist. 😬 |
Ironically (perhaps) Minus K is actually the modified “audiophile” version of the Newport Corp Sub-Hertz Platform of yore. Also ironically, the Vibraplane, the first high end iso stand is also based on a Newport iso stand, a table top microscope stand.
But what is missing, if I can be so bold, is the “black art” of isolation necessary to get the best performance out of isolation systems. It’s not all numbers, guys! In the beginning there were only four iso stand manufacturers - Townshend, Brightstar, Vibraplane and your humble scribe, and mine was the only one with a sub Hertz performance. Of course, there should be a tip of the hat to LIGO project - the grand wazoo of isolation ever since it detected gravity waves, the amplitude of which are on the order of an atomic nuclear.
Also, of some interest to the student is the fact that the actual operating principle of the Minus K stand is “negative stiffness,” a much more complex principle than simple mass-on-spring employing stiff members and springs. Get it? Negative K? |
Let’s not play this game and say we did. |
The more you try to store energy the worse things get. It’s a vicious cycle. Sorborhane, as fate would have it, is one of the worse materials ever foisted on naive and gullible audiophiles, right up there with SONEX and lead. It seems like such a good material - not too hard, not too soft. That’s why spring based systems and extremely hard cones like NASA grade ceramics of Golden Sound cones rule the night. They don’t store energy. |
Hey, Michael, wrong thread. This one is vibration isolation. 🎅
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Earth to Michael - a belated welcome to the Isolationist Club! Welcome aboard, sailor! And say goodbye to the Not Invented Here Club!
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michaelgreenaudio
Springs are a great tool when voicing your system. Once you start using them you might find other materials that you like the sound of better than aluminum, rubber and granite. >>>>>Agree. Springs are a great tool. That’s because they’re great isolators. Use them under amps, use them under power supplies, use them under speakers, use em under subwoofers, use em under CD players. The more springs you use the lower the system mass. The more springs you use the more you can hear! Hey, how ‘bout little mag lev isolators for cables and power cords?! 🤗 |
michaelgreenaudio1,005 posts12-20-2019 6:14amSo bdp24 thinks that you can place something in a room without it touching anything. Nice trick lol. mg >>>>Ah, magnetic levitation! Now you’re talking, Michael. |
Michael, Folks would generally be much better off if they believed in too much rather than too little. Would you believe I’m using mass-on-spring isolation right now? No, I’m not hot dogging you. 🌭 There are a great many advantages to small battery powered systems, as I’ve oft described. |
If there was no such thing as decoupling we never could have detected and observed gravity waves. The only challenge for decoupling for audio is how many directions 🔜 🔚 🔝 you can decouple from and how low a resonant frequency Fr you can achieve for each direction. My airspring Nimbus of yore, for example, decoupled in all six (count em!) directions with Fr as low as below 1 Hz. The lower you go the higher you fly.
In other words decoupling is not (rpt not) synonymous with damping. Damping techniques on the other hand 🖐 cannot affect extremely low freqjencies of vibration. That’s why mass-on-spring devices must (rpt must) be used for vibration in the range 0-20 Hz. You can also think of iso devices as anti gravity devices, if that helps. By the time you get to 20 Hz you’re already 95% effective. So, where’s the beef? 🍔 |
Springs go lower and are more effective than a sandbox. The sandbox was usurped by springs and air springs twenty years ago. Even Bright Star, the original sandbox, saw the writing on the wall. |
Isolating the speakers on a proper isolation stand (I.e., spring based) accomplishes two things. it prevents mechanical feedback to the front end electronics AND reduces the resonance of the speaker cabinets. Hel-loo! |
My dual-layer iso platform Nirvana employs two very heavy masses 18x18 like granite or bluestone and two layers of springs. You can achieve extremely low resonant frequencies Fr with this set up, circa 1.0 Hz. Hel-loo! Total cost you ask, about $100. You supply the granite or bluestone. Cannot beat with stick.
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