I am a fan of Chris Sommovigo's Black Cat and Airwave interconnects. I hope he does not mind me quoting him or naming him on this subject, but Chris does not mark directionality of his IC's. I recently wrote him on the subject and he responded that absent shunting off to ground/dialectric designs, the idea of wire directionality is a complete myth. Same with resistors and fuses. My hunch is that 95% of IC "manufacturers", particularly the one man operations of under $500 IC's mark directionality because they think it lends the appearance of technical sophistication and legitimacy. But even among the "big boys", the myth gets thrown around like so much accepted common knowledge. Thoughts? Someone care to educate me on how a simple IC or PC or speaker cable or fuse without a special shunting scheme can possibly have directionality? It was this comment by Stephen Mejias (then of Audioquest and in the context of Herb Reichert's review of the AQ Niagra 1000) that prompts my question;
Thank you for the excellent question. AudioQuest provided an NRG-10 AC cable for the evaluation. Like all AudioQuest cables, our AC cables use solid conductors that are carefully controlled for low-noise directionality. We see this as a benefit for all applications -- one that becomes especially important when discussing our Niagara units. Because our AC cables use conductors that have been properly controlled for low-noise directionality, they complement the Niagara System’s patented Ground-Noise Dissipation Technology. Other AC cables would work, but may or may not allow the Niagara to reach its full potential. If you'd like more information on our use of directionality to minimize the harmful effects of high-frequency noise, please visit http://www.audioquest.com/directionality-its-all-about-noise/ or the Niagara 1000's owner's manual (available on our website).
>>>>I recently wrote him on the subject and he responded that absent shunting off to ground/dialectric designs, the idea of wire directionality is a complete myth. Same with resistors and fuses. <<<<<
He is going to alienate a good number of audiophiles if what you stated was an accurate quote of what he said.. Well... brand new IC’s may not be directional out of the box. And, brand new speaker cables may not be. But, after long use? Reversing the direction on my system is an obvious change in what is heard. As for fuses? He should not say that. It will make some audiophiles think he can not hear. On a good system? One that you are familiar with? It becomes obvious. That is... if the system has transparency to begin with. Sorry... it might turn out to be a form of "color blindness of the ears" that some do not realize they have. It may be a DNA issue. One that some can, and some can not, hear these differences. No. Its not my imagination. I have repeated this .. and every time I get the same results.
@genez, Careful my friend, or you’ll be relegated to the loony bin. It appears that your own experiences are not good enough, no matter how many times you’ve heard it. You have to submit to rigorous double blind testing, before a panel of others peers, who are predetermined to just write it off as of no significance. 😉
Everybody know wire has a direction. The amp is at one end and the speakers are at the other end. The music flows from the amp to the speaker.
It is important to reverse your speaker wires every 2 or 3 songs just like you rotate the tires on your car.
You do this to relieve electron fatigue caused by heat buildup in the wires. Playing some cool jazz has a similar effect.
Also, playing rap music on wire - just once - will hurt the wire and it will need to be frozen and slowly thawed before the effects of the rap music will be gone from the wire.
I would have to keep my car radio off if what you said is true. Rotate my tires after every two or three songs? ;)
I'd be better off listening only to talk radio if that were the case....
I still think those who can not hear the differences may simply have an unclassified condition, like colorblindness is to the eyes. In this case, its with the ears.
I have tested directional wires, all this means is the wire was drawn and Angeles In that direction , and through my Electrostats speakers most any changes can be heard . Slightly better a bit more pronounced . BUT, if you leave opposite for 24 hours everything is pretty much =. It is Not a permanent change, Cryogenic immersion is a permanent change for example and + result For example.
A recent bulletin from a major livestock agency in New
Zealand warns that sheep marked with a X on their back are KICKERS ...
be extra careful when approaching from behind :- {
audioman58 I have tested directional wires, all this means is the wire was drawn and Angeles In that direction , and through my Electrostats speakers most any changes can be heard . Slightly better a bit more pronounced . BUT, if you leave opposite for 24 hours everything is pretty much =. It is Not a permanent change, Cryogenic immersion is a permanent change for example and + result For example.
>>>>The problem with your test is that when you disrupt the sensitive physical/electrical interface of the cable connections when reversing cables it takes at least two days to reestablish those interfaces. So any conclusions you might draw initially within the first 24 hours should be disregarded. Same with Cryo, you should never judge the effects prematurely since it can take up to a week for the materials involved to recover from the thermal shock of Cryo.
Also, since cables that have been in use for MANY YEARS exhibit directionality - when the sensitivity of physical/electrical interfaces are observed - obviously the change is permanent. Ditto for fuses, even stock fuses, that have been in use for MANY YEARS. They exhibit directionality when reversed, for better or worse, and MAINTAIN that directionality. HiFi Tuning used to think their fuses would eventually break in whichever direction they were installed. Later they recanted and now think their fuses, and all fuses, are directional, directional in the PERMANENT sense. Which is why they mark their fuses with a diode symbol.
smikell Forgetting audio signal connectors for a second, and commenting strictly on AC power cables ONLY, I find the whole subject silly and mute based on one simple fact. AC is alternating current, as in it changes direction 120 times a second, or sixty cycles.
>>>>>We’ve already addressed this apparent contradiction earlier in the thread. The reason why AC cables AND fuses in AC circuits are directional is because we only hear the effects of the portion of the alternating current that is traveling TOWARD the component. We do not hear the effects of the portion of the current traveling toward the wall outlet, away from the component. This is not to say there aren’t other distortions involved besides those related to directionality. Besides the whole subject is far from mute. 😀
The reason why AC cables AND fuses in AC circuits are directional is because we only hear the effects of the portion of the alternating current that is traveling TOWARD the component.
With all due respect, repeating this falsehood over and over does not make it more true. Every link in the chain of an audio system right down to the cabling involves circuits. As someone else tried to point out to you, your loudspeakers are transducers that rely on both sides of the circuit to, uh, transduce. This is why many of us have phase switching built into our preamps-so that we can correct out of phase recordings. Push-pull applies to more than just amplifiers. It is the underlying foundation of domestic electricity.
You can easily roll your own directional speaker cables. Just add two diodes to each cable -- one diode in series with each of the two wires. For the ultimate effect, orient them in the same direction (say, with the arrows pointing away from the amp), or, for a more interesting effect, place them in opposite direction.
From this simple test, i think you will conclude that directional cables is NOT what want in your system.
fsonicsmith OP Geoffkait: "The reason why AC cables AND fuses in AC circuits are directional is because we only hear the effects of the portion of the alternating current that is traveling TOWARD the component."
With all due respect, repeating this falsehood over and over does not make it more true. Every link in the chain of an audio system right down to the cabling involves circuits. As someone else tried to point out to you, your loudspeakers are transducers that rely on both sides of the circuit to, uh, transduce. This is why many of us have phase switching built into our preamps-so that we can correct out of phase recordings. Push-pull applies to more than just amplifiers. It is the underlying foundation of domestic electricity.
>>>>OK, push-pull, we’ll use your words. What does that mean? Push-Pull - that means you have two wires for each channel, a L channel and R channel. For each channel there is a RED and BLACK wire. When current is traveling down RED toward the speakers it’s traveling in the opposite direction on the Black and vice versa. Then the directions reverse, at a rate of 60 Hz, with the current now flowing on the RED wire AWAY from the speakers and TOWARD the speakers on BLACK. Now, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist which I happen to be to figure out that if the wires for RED and BLACK are directional then it’s best if they are oriented in the right direction, no? And if you reversed the cables you would hear a difference in sound. That’s why I say you can throw away the current traveling in the direction toward the wall because you can’t hear it. You only hear current traveling toward the speakers. Follow? And that’s why ever since what, 25 yrs go, cable manufacture who knew the score, Audioquest, Goertz, Anti Cables, whoever, marked their cables with directional ARROWS. It's the same reason fuses in AC circuits are directional and why power cords are directional.
Now, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist which I happen to be
In addition to being a skeptic as to wire directionality, call me a skeptic on this doozy little gem. Please, give us proof! If you prove me wrong I will humbly apologize to you.
fsonicsmith OP Geoffkait: "Now, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist which I happen to be..."
In addition to being a skeptic as to wire directionality, call me a skeptic on this doozy little gem. Please, give us proof! If you prove me wrong I will humbly apologize to you.
>>>>I urge you to take a gander at my post describing pathological skepticism On another thread. I think you might possibly find yourself looking in the mirror. 😛 Oh, what the heck, here’s the post from another fuse thread, the one titled Fuses fuses fuses, which I directed at one of the sheep you seem to be following, no offense to any sheep,
"George, Pathological skepticism, which we see rear its ugly head from time to time, especially on this particular fuse thread, but also many others, was addressed thoroughly in Zen and the Art of Debunkery. Perhaps you missed it. The author wrote, "Skepticism is an integral part of the scientific method, professional debunkers — often called ‘kneejerk skeptics’ — tend to be skeptics in name only, and to speak with little or no authority on the subject matter of which they are so passionately skeptical.” Sound familiar? It should.
I can certainly understand why those who were trapped in the paradigms of the 80s and 90s got left behind the real audiophile journey. Not the fake audiophile journey that most people, like yourself, apparently, are familiar with and accept as real. One reason I employ the subtitle, Advanced Audio Concepts, for my company (Machina Dynamica) is the recognition that many audiophiles, for whatever reason, view anything that is outside or beyond their ken or experience as foreign or alien. "Unexplained" as you put it. One assumes you guys down in the remote islands in the Pacific don’t get a lot of the memos the rest of us get. That might explain your confusion and anger. An audio device or tweak only needs to be sufficiently advanced to be labeled magic or BS. Do you believe cameras steal your soul?
From introduction to Zen and the Art of Debunkery:
"Seeing with humility, curiosity and fresh eyes was once the main point of science. But today it is often a different story. As the scientific enterprise has been bent toward exploitation, institutionalization, hyperspecialization and new orthodoxy, it has increasingly preoccupied itself with disconnected facts in a psychological, social and ecological vacuum. So disconnected has official science become from the greater scheme of things, that it tends to deny or disregard entire domains of reality and to satisfy itself with reducing all of life and consciousness to a dead physics.
In forgetting that all knowledge is provisional and subject to new discovery, mainstream science seems to be treading the weary path of the ossified religions it presumed to replace. Where free, dispassionate inquiry once reigned, emotions now run high in the defense of a fundamentalized “Scientific Truth.” As anomalies mount up beneath a sea of denial, defenders of the Faith and the Kingdom cling with increasing self-righteousness to the hull of a leaking paradigm. Faced with provocative evidence of things undreamt of in their philosophy, many otherwise mature scientists revert to a kind of reactive infantilism characterized by blind faith in the absoluteness of the familiar."
Mr. Kait, as I know you know, there are many threads on multiple boards about you and questioning all aspects of your background, educational, vocational, and otherwise. I am a lawyer. On Monday I am going to send a letter on my letterhead to the University of Virginia to check on your Linkdn claim of an aerospace degree from that institution and I will publish the results here. Best to you sir. For now.
Don't forget to google the proper way to make a torch and pitchforks can be readily procured. When approaching the windmill, make sure to surround it so as to cut off any escape route. Place enough tinder and brush around the bass of the windmill to ensure a good and even burn. Try not to get too excited and torch the upper parts of the windmill as it will hasten the burn and ruin the evening. What you want is to drive the monster ever upwards on a gradual basis so you can relish it's plight and screams of agony. Oh, and bring enough food and booze and don't forget some blankets and lawn chairs for the kids. 😃
fsonicsmith OP Mr. Kait, as I know you know, there are many threads on multiple boards about you and questioning all aspects of your background, educational, vocational, and otherwise. I am a lawyer. On Monday I am going to send a letter on my letterhead to the University of Virginia to check on your Linkdn claim of an aerospace degree from that institution and I will publish the results here. Best to you sir. For now.
>>>>I didn’t know I was so popular.
You’re a lawyer? Well, that would certainly explain your continuing confusion regarding wire directionality and alternating current.
On Monday I am going to send a letter on my letterhead to the University of Virginia to check on your Linkdn claim of an aerospace degree from that institution and I will publish the results here. Best to you sir. For now.
Got to give it to you Geoff, you got stamina. You've been laughed off many other tech forums, but on this one you've dug your heals in. Many would say you really are certifiable.
georgehifi On Monday I am going to send a letter on my letterhead to the University of Virginia to check on your Linkdn claim of an aerospace degree from that institution and I will publish the results here. Best to you sir. For now.
+1 fsonicsmith
Got to give it to you Geoff, you got stamina. You’ve been laughed off many other tech forums, but on this one you’ve dug your heals in. Many would say you really are certifiable.
Cheers George
>>>>He who laugh last laughs best, my pointy headed friend. 😛 Wahoo Wa!
Manufacturers of "directional" cables argue that it is the direction of the energy flow that is important (from wall to power amp, from power amp to speakers etc). This way they can market their AC power cables, speaker cables etc. They conveniently ignore the fact that the energy flow takes place in the dielectric surrounding the conductors -- including the surrounding air. Any asymmetry in the crystal structure of the conductors themselves would only impact electron motion and would likely result in undesirable diode behavior.
sfroyen Manufacturers of "directional" cables argue that it is the direction of the energy flow that is important (from wall to power amp, from power amp to speakers etc). This way they can market their AC power cables, speaker cables etc. They conveniently ignore the fact that the energy flow takes place in the dielectric surrounding the conductors -- including the surrounding air. Any asymmetry in the crystal structure of the conductors themselves would only impact electron motion and would likely result in undesirable diode behavior.
>>>>>>Listen, pal, we got enough trouble with skeptics of skin effect who insist all audio signals must travel BELOW the conductor surface, totally inside the conductor. We don’t need any wild theories about the energy traveling outside the conductor. If that were true we could fake out the energy and make cables entirely out of dielectric and skip the metal. The energy wouldn’t have a clue. And it would be lot cheaper, too, you know, not having the costs of super pure copper, silver or gold to worry about. In fact, you could sell cables made entirely of air.
But seriously, we already know the velocity of photons traveling through copper conductors (circa 70% speed of light in vacuum) and it’s consistent with the photons traveling through the metal conductor itself, NOT through the dielectric and NOT through air, which would be a much higher percentage of the speed of light in a vacuum, no? It's the same situation for audio over copper wires in telephony, too. The velocity over copper wires in the telephone system is consistent with the signal traveling through copper itself. Electrons? They hardly move at all so we can ignore them.
I'm distinguishing between the electron motion, which, of course happens inside the conductor, and the flow of energy that powers, e.g., the speakers. The latter is carried by the electromagnetic field that is generated by the electron motion, but is located outside the conductors. This follows from Maxwell's equations which are valid from DC to any frequency of relevance to EE and breaks down only when describing certain quantum effects (see QED).
In the case of an electrical signal (or AC power) that is being conducted via wires the energy is conveyed in the form of an electromagnetic wave, which travels outside the conductor itself. That wave propagates at a substantial fraction (generally somewhere between 50% to 98%) of the speed of light in a vacuum. The exact speed depends primarily on the "dielectric constant" of the particular insulation.
Any electromagnetic wave can be considered to be comprised of photons, although the term photons is most commonly associated with a particular kind of electromagnetic wave, namely light.
As I indicated in an earlier post in this thread, in the case of an electrical signal that is being conducted via wires the near light speed propagation of that electromagnetic wave is intimately related to movement of electrons within the conductor, even though that electron movement occurs at a **vastly** slower speed.
Sfroyen’s comment that "the energy flow takes place in the dielectric surrounding the conductors -- including the surrounding air" is absolutely correct. Photons do not travel within metallic conductors, electrons do. Ralph (Atmasphere) has made the same point, btw, in prior threads here that have involved similar controversies.
There is some confusion as to what the difference is between current and the audio signal. The audio signal is the electromagnetic wave. The current is traveling at the speed of electron flow in the conductor, which is virtually idle, to whit,
"Electromagnetic waves propagate in vacuum at a maximum speed of 299,792,458 meters per second . For a 12-gauge copper wire carrying a 10-ampere DC current, the speed of electric current (average electron drift velocity) is about 80 centimeters per hour or about 0.0002 meters per second."
The electromagnetic wave is the audio signal. There is no electromagnetic wave in the power cord or in the fuse where the power cord enters the amp. As I said previously, most audio frequencies travel within the IC or speaker cable wire per se, the skin effect being that very high frequencies travel nearer the surface (skin) of the metal conductor. And what carries the audio frequencies? The electromagnetic wave, of course!
There is no law saying photons can’t travel in copper. In fact it’s the physical non symmetry of the copper ITSELF that gives rise to directionality. Now, if anyone wishes to argue that "directionality" is due to electron speed differences (due to physical non symmetry of the wire) that give rise to resistance differences depending on directios I might actually consider going along with that.
There is no law saying photons can't travel in copper. In fact it's the physical non symmetry of the copper ITSELF that gives rise to directionality. Hel-loo!
>>>>>Indeed there is. The laws are called Maxwell's equations and were published in the 1860s. They are fully relativistic and form the basis for all electric, optical and radio technologies. In fact they are also used to calculate the skin-effect. As I stated above, any asymmetry in the copper can only affect the electron motion -- not the photons (electromagnetic fields and photons are one and the same).
If somebody is interested in the math of electrical energy flow in cables, this is a good article in Am. J. Phys. (it's possible to read the paper without following all the math):
sfroyen geoffkait: There is no law saying photons can’t travel in copper. In fact it’s the physical non symmetry of the copper ITSELF that gives rise to directionality. Hel-loo!
Indeed there is. The laws are called Maxwell’s equations and were published in the 1860s. They are fully relativistic and form the basis for all electric, optical and radio technologies. In fact they are also used to calculate the skin-effect. As I stated above, any asymmetry in the copper can only affect the electron motion -- not the photons (electromagnetic fields and photons are one and the same).
>>>>as I already said the skin effect is simply that higher frequencies travel nearer to the outer surface of the conductor. And those frequencies are very high. Obviously, by inference, the lower the frequency the closer to the center of the conductor it will travel. How does that comport with the electromagnetic wave - the audio signal - traveling outside the conductor as you claim? Hint: it doesn’t.
If somebody is interested in the math of electrical energy flow in cables, this is a good article in Am. J. Phys. (it’s possible to read the paper without following all the math):
That paper does not show that the electromagnetic field of the AUDIO SIGNAL travels outside the wire nor does it show that current travels outside the wire. What it shows is that *components* of the electromagnetic field can travel on the surface of the wire. We already know that a magnetic field induced by current traveling through wire and extends beyond the wire according to the right hand rule. (This is why it’s important to address the large magnetic fields produced by large transformers in audio systems with low frequency high permeability alloy.) The paper involves a battery connected to a wire so I’m not sure this paper even applies to an audio system. The paper also states there is energy INSIDE the wire and describes the mathematics of the electric field and magnetic field INSIDE the wire. See top of page 1.
Furthermore, take the case of the humble fuse in the amp where the power cord enters the amp. The fuse wire is designed to melt at a given temperature based on excessive current. That melting is produced by thermal energy of the current, no? The current must be traveling inside the wire per se, if the current energy were traveling outside the wire it would be dissipated into the surrounding air and structure of the fuse and beyond. So the whole idea of "energy" traveling outside the wire is pretty preposterous. Obviously there can be some components such as induced magnetic field outside the wire per se. Everybody knows that.
Geoffkait 8-5-2017 as I already said the skin effect is simply that higher frequencies travel nearer to the outer surface of the conductor. And those frequencies are very high. Obviously, by inference, the lower the frequency the closer to the center of the conductor it will travel. How does that comport with the electromagnetic wave - the audio signal - traveling outside the conductor as you claim? Hint: it doesn’t.
Actually, it does. See below.
Geoffkait 8-6-2017 Furthermore, take the case of the humble fuse in the amp where the power cord enters the amp. The fuse wire is designed to melt at a given temperature based on excessive current. That melting is produced by thermal energy of the current, no? The current must be traveling inside the wire per se, if the current energy were traveling outside the wire it would be dissipated into the surrounding air and structure of the fuse and beyond. So the whole idea of "energy" traveling outside the wire is pretty preposterous.
In the case of electrical signals (or AC power) that is being conducted via wires, "the current" consists of the movement of charge under the influence of an applied electric field (i.e., a voltage), and the carriers of that charge are electrons.
As we all agree the movement of individual electrons (the "drift velocity") is extremely slow. However as the electromagnetic wave propagates along a cable, at near light-speed, **different** electrons are caused to be in motion at different points. The very slow electron movement near the receiving end of the cable will be similar to the very slow electron movement near the sending end of the cable, except that its response to a voltage applied at the sending end will be delayed corresponding to the amount of time it takes the electromagnetic wave to propagate (at near light-speed) across the corresponding length.
The net movement of electrons at any given point along the cable will be in a direction corresponding to the +/- polarity of the signal at any given instant, at that given point. And the number of moving electrons will be proportional to the amount of current, and in fact is what constitutes "the current," which if excessive will blow a fuse that may be present. For example, one ampere of "current" is defined as the movement of one coulomb per second across any given cross-section of a conductor, and one coulomb corresponds to the charge of approximately 6.2 × 10^18 electrons.
Skin effect results in the moving charge carriers (electrons in this case) being distributed in a non-uniform manner within a cross-section of each of the two conductors. Such that the percentage of the total current that is conducted at a given depth within that cross section decreases with increasing depth. With the effect becoming greater as frequency increases, of course. The result, in effect, is an increase in overall resistance, which is very slight in the upper-most part of the audible frequency range, and becomes proportionately greater at higher frequencies.
Geoffkait 8-5-2017 But seriously, we already know the velocity of photons traveling through copper conductors (circa 70% speed of light in vacuum) and it’s consistent with the photons traveling through the metal conductor itself, NOT through the dielectric and NOT through air, which would be a much higher percentage of the speed of light in a vacuum, no? It’s the same situation for audio over copper wires in telephony, too. The velocity over copper wires in the telephone system is consistent with the signal traveling through copper itself. Electrons? They hardly move at all so we can ignore them.
The bottom line as I see it, based in part on the last sentence of your paragraph that I quoted just above, is that I suspect the underlying flaw in your reasoning, which leads you to conclude that the energy of an audio or other electrical signal is carried by photons travelling within a wire, is a misconception of how the near light-speed propagation of an electromagnetic wave and the very slow movement of charge carriers (i.e., electrons) within a conductor are interrelated. Again, slow moving electrons are "the current," and although as you’ve said the very fast moving electromagnetic wave can be considered to be "the signal," the two go hand in hand.
If you can find a seemingly credible reference which explicitly indicates that the energy of an electrical signal conducted via wires is carried within the conductors by photons, I will attempt to explain why it is either incorrect or is being misinterpreted.
I am not going to read this whole thing as I am late to the party so please forgive me if I repeat something already said
Almarg, you are usually spot one but missed one here.
The electromagnetic wave is the audio signal. There is no electromagnetic wave in the power cord or in the fuse where the power cord enters the amp.
The energy in the incoming power is indeed an electromagnetic wave like all AC signals. How can a 60 Hz "audio" signal be EM and a 60 Hz line signal not be? Plug your speaker into the wall outlet and you will hear a very loud 60 Hz for a brief period of time.
Earlier someone gave a flawed analogy about measurements. Stating that since capacitors of the same value and precision sounded different there must be more to this than just measurements. The flaw in that argument is that caps have more parameters than just value and precision. Leakage current, effective series resistance, some amount of inductance causing them to be resonant at some frequency, temperature coefficient, type of dielectric, etc. I propose that if all parameters were exactly the same then they would sound the same which makes the original supposition invalid.
The misconception that electrons are flowing down the wire from source to load is very firmly implanted in many minds. They were taught using the very flawed analogy that electrons flowing through a wire is like water flowing through a hose . "Mr. Smith taught me that in 8th grade so it must be correct.”
It is very difficult if not impossible for many (most?) to conceptualize energy transfer but very easy to think of electrons flowing like water so they are stuck in a world where cables can’t be directional because electrons flow one way and then the other in AC. I struggled with that when the concept was introduced to me in Freshmen physics. I couldn’t understand how there could be a power plant a thousand miles away and electrons were making trips back and forth 60 times a second. Of course they weren’t. Energy was flowing from the power plant to my house in the form of an EM wave, not electrons.
The flowing electron myth can be easily debunked if you can wrap your head around an electromagnetic wave. Light, what we call microwaves, radio waves, etc. are all the same thing just at different frequencies. Audio signals are the same thing at very low frequencies. If the frequency is high enough these waves travel easily through air or a vacuum with no associated movement of electrons. At audio frequencies they will too just not very efficiently so it is easier to guide them where we want them to go since they will follow a wire. The resulting vibration of electrons with AC or the very slow migration of electrons with DC is an effect caused by the wave, and that is what trips many up. They think the movement of electrons is the cause when it is the effect, the movement of energy is the cause. Again, if the energy will travel in the absence of electrons (vacuum) then electrons are not the cause. While I can imagine an AC wave like light traveling I admit I do have trouble conceptualizing how DC energy "flows" so I just accept that it does.
So can wires be directional? If they are not symmetrical it is easy to see why they would be. Ralph gave the example of asymmetry in a cable where the ground is connected on one end only. Cables with termination networks like MIT would surely be directional. If the way the wire is drawn results in an asymmetrical crystal structure I suppose there could be an effect. Now if a cable is perfectly symmetrical it is hard to see how it could be but since the energy always flows from source to load maybe this somehow conditions the wire so maybe, would explain the burn in effect that many adhere to. At the end of the day I am in the camp of just try it. If you hear it then it is real.
Thanks, Herman, for your characteristically excellent input, which like many posts you have made in the past commands a great deal of respect in my book.
To be sure it’s clear, the statement that is quoted near the beginning of your post was made by Geoff. The reference to me which appears just above the quote might give some a different impression. And of course I agree that the quoted statement is incorrect.
So the whole idea of "energy" traveling outside the wire is pretty preposterous.
If that was true then the means we have for determining whether or not a wire is hot by placing a device near them would not work, like those little gizmos that you put near an AC line that beep when the line is hot. If all energy was contained inside the wire then transformers would not work. Radios would not exist. etcetera
Sorry Al for misattributing the comment, it gets confusing here sometimes. I know I just set myself up for a cheap shot.
herman Earlier someone gave a flawed analogy about measurements. Stating that since capacitors of the same value and precision sounded different there must be more to this than just measurements. The flaw in that argument is that caps have more parameters than just value and precision. Leakage current, effective series resistance, some amount of inductance causing them to be resonant at some frequency, temperature coefficient, type of dielectric, etc. I propose that if all parameters were exactly the same then they would sound the same which makes the original supposition invalid.
Huh? What I stated is still true. The caps that have the same capacitance and the same precision sound different. Who cares any other characteristics? So you think if they were different colors they would sound different? Feel free to propose anything you want. That does not mean your proposals are true, they might be true. They might not be.
herman So can wires be directional? If they are not symmetrical it is easy to see why they would be. Ralph gave the example of asymmetry in a cable where the ground is connected on one end only. Cables with termination networks like MIT would surely be directional. If the way the wire is drawn results in an asymmetrical crystal structure I suppose there could be an effect. Now if a cable is perfectly symmetrical it is hard to see how it could be but since the energy always flows from source to load maybe this somehow conditions the wire so maybe, would explain the burn in effect that many adhere to. At the end of the day I am in the camp of just try it. If you hear it then it is real.
Just in case you’re a little late to the game, all wires per se are inherently asymmetrical - physically - when drawn through the final die. This physical asymmetry is the basis for why Audioquest, Anti Cables and others mark their cables with directional arrows. We are talking here, at least I am, about unshielded and otherwise symmetrical cables. Obviously shielding has its own issue regarding direction. So, to be thorough, a manufacturer should have a *process* for controlling and aligning both the shielding directionality with the wire directionality. So the two issues aren’t at odds with each other. Audioquest obviously does have a process in place, probably others as well. Make sense? The same goes for fuses, which appear to be physically symmetrical (aside from lettering or symbols), but contain a wire that is actually physically asymmetrical.
The
speaker transducer moves forward and backward according to EMF acting
on the voice coil - see Faraday’s law and Maxwells equations - so both
+ve and -ve current direction along the speaker wire causes transducer
movement.
A wire with directional properties would be a disaster
for reproducing accurate audio. So Audioquest marketing mumbo jumbo is
obviously just mumbo jumbo - Otherwise their products would not work .
Please explain how the audio signal electromagnetic wave, that travels down a speaker cable/wire, causes the voice coil of the speaker to move in and out which produces the sound waves we hear. What exactly is happening. How is the signal energy causing the voice coil to move? Jim
Huh? What I stated is still true. The caps that have the same capacitance and the same precision sound different.Who cares any other characteristics?
That is called cherry picking part of the conversation to divert attention from the overall discussion. You did not merely state
The caps that have the same capacitance and the same precision sound different.
you then drew a conclusion that measurements therefore don’t tell us the whole story. You conveniently failed to mention that in your last post.. and that was the whole basis of my comment.
Your conclusion was based on an incomplete analysis of the situation. Simple example.. A 1 watt 1% resistor made of carbon with very low inductance will sound different than a 1 watt 1% wire wound resistor with much higher inductance. The latter will act as a low or high pass filter depending on how it is used. If you ignore the inductance you would conclude there is something that measurements don’t tell you when the fact is you just failed to measure and take into account an important parameter.
Who cares? Those who care about finding what they believe to be the best sounding components without using trial and error. If you are designing RF circuits and fail to take into account the inductance of resistors, the resistance of inductors, the inductance of a capacitor, etc. you aren’t going to get the results you want. If somebody would take the time to measure everything there is to measure about the components a correlation could be made between those measurements and how they function. I am open to the possibility that there may well be things we are unaware of and therefore can’t measure and take into account, but picking 2 matching parameters as proof that no other measurements matter is simply incorrect.
Have you ever once in your life stated "oh, I see, I was wrong" or do you just like to argue for the sake of argument. I’m done with this part of the thread.
Just in case you’re a little late to the game, all wires per se are inherently asymmetrical - physically - when drawn through the final die.
I acknowledged that in my post, I said
If the way the wire is drawn results in an asymmetrical crystal structure I suppose there could be an effect.
about this
The speaker transducer moves forward and backward according to EMF acting on the voice coil - see Faraday’s law and Maxwells equations - so both +ve and -ve current direction along the speaker wire causes transducer movement.
Again, it has nothing to do with we commonly call "current" which most visualize as electrons flowing back and forth. It simply doesn’t work that way. There is an electro-magnetic wave that transfers energy to the coil of the speaker. If applied to a resistor it creates heat. If applied to an inductor (coil) it creates a constantly changing magnetic field which pushes and pulls against a fixed magnet creating motion. Those stuck in a world of flowing electrons are just that, stuck there. Energy flows, electrons do not.
It is illogical to say that "electricity" or current or voltage is an electromagnetic wave AND that audio signal must travel outside the copper conductor. And here's why. The only thing that travels at lightspeed is photons. And all photons travel at lightspeed. You know, 186,000 miles per second in a vacuum and less in a different medium such as air. And even less in denser mediums. The reason why the audio signal travels at say, 70% the speed of light in a copper conductor is because the audio signal is traveling through copper. It’s not because it’s traveling through air. If it was traveling through air the velocity of the audio signal would be just slightly lower than its velocity through a vacuum. If you measure the time it takes a radio signal to go from a transmitter on Earth to a satellite in synchronous orbit and back, you know, at 24k miles high orbit you will find that the elapsed time up and down is approximately the same time as if there were no air, no atmosphere. That’s because electromagnetic waves are barely slowed at all when they travel through air, which has an Index of Refraction of 1.0003. This all means the audio signal electromagnetic waves must be traveling through the copper, not outside the copper, just like voltage and current.
Photons with higher energy than light can obviously travel through solid objects, like say, X-rays and gamma rays. They are all comprised of photons. The entire electromagnetic spectrum is composed of photons. Radio waves, X rays, light rays of various colors, they’re all photons.
The laws I want to talk about are the basic laws of electricity. I'm not referring to circuit theory laws as described by Kirchhoff or Ohm but the laws governing the electric and magnetic fields. These fields are fundamental to all electrical activity whether the phenomenon is lightning, electrostatic display, radar, antennas, sunlight, and power generation, analog or digital circuitry.
These laws are often called Maxwell's equations. Light energy can be directed by lenses, radar energy can be directed by waveguides and the energy and power frequencies can be direct conductors. Thus we direct energy flow at different frequencies by using different material.
For utility power the energy travels in the space between the conductors not in the conductors. In digital circuits the signal and energy travel in the spaces between the traces or between the traces and the conducting surfaces. Buildings have halls and walls. People move in the halls not the walls. Circuits have traces and spaces, signals and energy moves in the spaces not the traces.
The speaker transducer moves forward and backward according to EMF acting on the voice coil - see Faraday’s law and Maxwells equations - so both +ve and -ve current direction along the speaker wire causes transducer movement.
Again, it has nothing to do with we commonly call "current" which most visualize as electrons flowing back and forth. It simply doesn’t work that way. There is an electro-magnetic wave that transfers energy to the coil of the speaker. If applied to a resistor it creates heat. If applied to an inductor (coil) it creates a constantly changing magnetic field which pushes and pulls against a fixed magnet creating motion. Those stuck in a world of flowing electrons are just that, stuck there. Energy flows, electrons do not.
geoffkait: It is illogical to say that "electricity" or current or voltage is an electromagnetic wave ...
>>>>While you may think it's illogical, electrical energy transfer still happens through the electromagnetic field. The paper I referred to earlier shows how this works for DC. The energy flows in the direction of the Poynting vector. For a zero resistance cable, this vector is zero inside the cable (there is no electric field), and it is oriented parallel to cable outside the cable. For a non-ideal cable the Poynting vector has a small component directed perpendicular to cable, transferring energy into the cable, causing ohmic heating.
geoffkait: The reason why the audio signal travels at say, 70% the speed of light in a copper conductor is because the audio signal is traveling through copper.
>>>>This is patently untrue. The propagation speed is limited by the dielectric constant of the material surrounding the conductor. Look up, e.g., propagation speeds for coaxial cables.
It is illogical to say that "electricity" or current or voltage is an electromagnetic wave.
This all means the electromagnetic waves must be traveling through the copper, not outside the copper.
First they aren’t and then they are? To deny that audio signals are EM waves is to deny basic physics. I suggest you go take a basic physics class about these topics as your analysis is I’m sorry to say.. fundamentally flawed. Take a look at this chart
Using the common ways of describing it in terms of voltage and current always breaks down at some point, like the water through a hose analogy. It’s OK for grade school to start to get a grasp but it oversimplifies in ways that can’t be supported and at some point (we are there) just causes confusion.
Trying to differentiate some portions of the spectrum by saying that some are made of photons is basically incorrect. There are two common ways to analyze light and all other EM waves. Photons, which treats it as particles and the EM wave which of course, treats it like a wave. For some phenomena particles works better, for some waves work better. To try and differentiate between the 2 to explain an ill-conceived position just muddies the waters. Since to get the clearest picture you need to use quantum physics which is clearly beyond the capabilities of most here including me, we simply must trust those physicists who do understand it.. like Einstein.
It is not incorrect to use photons to discuss EM waves at audio frequencies, it just generally serves no useful purpose.
Once again and I will drop it, but to claim that all of the energy is contained inside the wire falls apart with simple experimentation. Electromagnets would not exist, electric motors would not work, and on and on like I pointed out above. To deny this is again denying basic physics. I guess the earth is flat too since you can’t see the curvature from where you are standing?
BTW, you may or may not have noticed that I haven’t posted much for several years and this thread is a perfect example of why. A perfectly logical question is asked (cable direction in case you forgot) and somebody (usually the same guy) jumps in with pseudo-science and voodoo to try to explain a position that is fundamentally flawed and flies in the face of all known physics. Said person will then endlessly defend their defenseless position until we end up where we are today. My apologies to the OP but sometimes you see something that is just so blatantly wrong you have to speak up.
jea48, I confess all those quotes you posted from Ralph Morrison do not actually prove anything. Saying that Maxwell’s equations prove he’s (Ralph) right is nothing more than a cheap Appeal to Authority. Many folks use that logical fallacy, e.g., "the answer is in Maxwell’s equations." Those paragraphs you cited are statements but not evidence or proof of anything. They sound OK, though. Wouldn't it be nice if there was an electronics textbook or a technical paper in some scientific journal that came right out and demonstrated how wire can or cannot be directional? But then all this discourse would stop. Nobody wants that, do they? 😀
Herman stated recently regarding wire directionality, "if you can hear it it’s real." I hate to be the one to point this out but that’s unfortunately not really the right answer, at for the purposes of this thread, since the naysayers or skeptics whatever never try listening for directionality - or if they do they can’t hear it. So they say. That why they’ve taken the tack of using mathematical and physics explanations to debunk the whole idea. In fact these attempts to debunk wire directionality are very reminiscent of theological arguments. Even of medieval witch hunts or whatever. Not that I’m trying to bring up theological arguments here or any such thing. But it is curious that these things are very difficult to prove or even to provide evidence other than personal testimony. Which I actually find rather convincing given the sheer number of such reports. It’s like UFO sightings, report and videos; eventually you start to say, gee, maybe there’s something to that. Regardless of the fact that US Air Force Operation Blue Book, which was right down the street from my first job in a pink building with no windows at Wright Patterson AFB, closed its doors in 1968 or thereabouts due to lack of evidence and or lack of funds. So they said.
OK, everyone, stay calm. My understanding is Randy isn’t really a pinhead as many folks think, she's just a normal 14 year old girl who has access to her mom’s computer.
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