Directionality of wire

I am not going to read this whole thing as I am late to the party so please forgive me if I repeat something already said

Almarg, you are usually spot one but missed one here.

The electromagnetic wave is the audio signal. There is no electromagnetic wave in the power cord or in the fuse where the power cord enters the amp.

The energy in the incoming power is indeed an electromagnetic wave like all AC signals. How can a 60 Hz "audio" signal be EM and a 60 Hz line signal not be? Plug your speaker into the wall outlet and you will hear a very loud 60 Hz for a brief period of time.

Earlier someone gave a flawed analogy about measurements. Stating that since capacitors of the same value and precision sounded different there must be more to this than just measurements. The flaw in that argument is that caps have more parameters than just value and precision. Leakage current, effective series resistance, some amount of inductance causing them to be resonant at some frequency, temperature coefficient, type of dielectric, etc. I propose that if all parameters were exactly the same then they would sound the same which makes the original supposition invalid.

The misconception that electrons are flowing down the wire from source to load is very firmly implanted in many minds. They were taught using the very flawed analogy that electrons flowing through a wire is like water flowing through a hose . "Mr. Smith taught me that in 8th grade so it must be correct.”

It is very difficult if not impossible for many (most?) to conceptualize energy transfer but very easy to think of electrons flowing like water so they are stuck in a world where cables can’t be directional because electrons flow one way and then the other in AC. I struggled with that when the concept was introduced to me in Freshmen physics. I couldn’t understand how there could be a power plant a thousand miles away and electrons were making trips back and forth 60 times a second. Of course they weren’t. Energy was flowing from the power plant to my house in the form of an EM wave, not electrons.

The flowing electron myth can be easily debunked if you can wrap your head around an electromagnetic wave. Light, what we call microwaves, radio waves, etc. are all the same thing just at different frequencies. Audio signals are the same thing at very low frequencies. If the frequency is high enough these waves travel easily through air or a vacuum with no associated movement of electrons. At audio frequencies they will too just not very efficiently so it is easier to guide them where we want them to go since they will follow a wire. The resulting vibration of electrons with AC or the very slow migration of electrons with DC is an effect caused by the wave, and that is what trips many up. They think the movement of electrons is the cause when it is the effect, the movement of energy is the cause. Again, if the energy will travel in the absence of electrons (vacuum) then electrons are not the cause. While I can imagine an AC wave like light traveling  I admit I do have trouble conceptualizing how DC energy "flows" so I just accept that it does. 

So can wires be directional? If they are not symmetrical it is easy to see why they would be. Ralph gave the example of asymmetry in a cable where the ground is connected on one end only. Cables with termination networks like MIT would surely be directional. If the way the wire is drawn results in an asymmetrical crystal structure I suppose there could be an effect. Now if a cable is perfectly symmetrical it is hard to see how it could be but since the energy always flows from source to load maybe this somehow conditions the wire so maybe, would explain the burn in effect that many adhere to. At the end of the day I am in the camp of just try it. If you hear it then it is real.

So the whole idea of "energy" traveling outside the wire is pretty preposterous.

If that was true then the means we have for determining whether or not a wire is hot by placing a device  near them would not work, like those little gizmos that you put near an AC line that beep when the line is hot. If all energy was contained inside the wire then transformers would not work. Radios would not exist. etcetera

Sorry Al for misattributing the comment, it gets confusing here sometimes. I know I just set myself up for a cheap shot.

Huh? What I stated is still true. The caps that have the same capacitance and the same precision sound different.Who cares any other characteristics?

That is called cherry picking part of the conversation to divert attention from the overall discussion. You did not merely state

The caps that have the same capacitance and the same precision sound different.

you then drew a conclusion that measurements therefore don’t tell us the whole story. You conveniently failed to mention that in your last post.. and that was the whole basis of my comment.

Your conclusion was based on an incomplete analysis of the situation. Simple example.. A 1 watt 1% resistor made of carbon with very low inductance will sound different than a 1 watt 1% wire wound resistor with much higher inductance. The latter will act as a low or high pass filter depending on how it is used. If you ignore the inductance you would conclude there is something that measurements don’t tell you when the fact is you just failed to measure and take into account an important parameter.

Who cares? Those who care about finding what they believe to be the best sounding components without using trial and error. If you are designing RF circuits and fail to take into account the inductance of resistors, the resistance of inductors, the inductance of a capacitor, etc. you aren’t going to get the results you want. If somebody would take the time to measure everything there is to measure about the components a correlation could be made between those measurements and how they function. I am open to the possibility that there may well be things we are unaware of and therefore can’t measure and take into account, but picking 2 matching parameters as proof that no other measurements matter is simply incorrect.

Have you ever once in your life stated "oh, I see, I was wrong" or do you just like to argue for the sake of argument. I’m done with this part of the thread.

Just in case you’re a little late to the game, all wires per se are inherently asymmetrical - physically - when drawn through the final die.

I acknowledged that in my post, I said

If the way the wire is drawn results in an asymmetrical crystal structure I suppose there could be an effect.

about this

The speaker transducer moves forward and backward according to EMF acting on the voice coil - see Faraday’s law and Maxwells equations - so both +ve and -ve current direction along the speaker wire causes transducer movement.

Again, it has nothing to do with we commonly call "current" which most visualize as electrons flowing back and forth. It simply doesn’t work that way. There is an electro-magnetic wave that transfers energy to the coil of the speaker. If applied to a resistor it creates heat. If applied to an inductor (coil) it creates a constantly changing magnetic field which pushes and pulls against a fixed magnet creating motion. Those stuck in a world of flowing electrons are just that, stuck there. Energy flows, electrons do not.

It is illogical to say that "electricity" or current or voltage is an electromagnetic wave.

This all means the electromagnetic waves must be traveling through the copper, not outside the copper.

First they aren’t and then they are? To deny that audio signals are EM waves is to deny basic physics. I suggest you go take a basic physics class about these topics as your analysis is I’m sorry to say.. fundamentally flawed. Take a look at this chart

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_spectrum

Using the common ways of describing it in terms of voltage and current always breaks down at some point, like the water through a hose analogy. It’s OK for grade school to start to get a grasp but it oversimplifies in ways that can’t be supported and at some point (we are there) just causes confusion.

Trying  to differentiate some portions of the spectrum by saying  that some are made of photons  is basically incorrect. There are two common ways to analyze light and all other EM waves. Photons, which treats it as particles and the EM wave which of course, treats it like a wave. For some phenomena particles works better, for some waves work better. To try and differentiate between the 2 to explain an ill-conceived position just muddies the waters. Since to get the clearest picture you need to use quantum physics which is clearly beyond the capabilities of most here including me, we simply must trust those physicists who do understand it.. like Einstein.

It is not incorrect to use photons to discuss EM waves at audio frequencies, it just generally serves no useful purpose.

Once again and I will drop it, but to claim that all of the energy is contained inside the wire falls apart with simple experimentation. Electromagnets would not exist, electric motors would not work, and on and on like I pointed out above. To deny this is again denying basic physics. I guess the earth is flat too since you can’t see the curvature from where you are standing?


BTW, you may or may not have noticed that I haven’t posted much for several years and this thread is a perfect example of why. A perfectly logical question is asked (cable direction in case you forgot) and somebody (usually the same guy) jumps in with pseudo-science and voodoo to try to explain a position that is fundamentally flawed and flies in the face of all known physics. Said person will then endlessly defend their defenseless position until we end up where we are today. My apologies to the OP but sometimes you see something that is just so blatantly wrong you have to speak up.

Thanks for your input, with which I completely agree, except for "the movement of electrons is the cause when it is the effect". In my view, the two are dual, in the mathematical sense.

It is very simple to me. EM waves move through a vacuum without any movement of electrons. If the same waves move along a wire and the electrons in the wire vibrate in response then the only cause can be the EM wave. The wave can move through various mediums without electron vibration. The electrons can't vibrate without the wave. So which is the cause and which is the effect is very clear.

I never said all the "energy" was traveling inside the wire.

you most certainly did. I did not put words in your mouth. I quoted you like I quoted you below.

You stated here that the audio signal is traveling through the wire, "not outside."

This all means the audio signal electromagnetic waves must be traveling through the copper, not outside the copper, just like voltage and current.

BTW voltage does not travel. It is a difference of potential between 2 points. Current does flow if you define it correctly as the flow of charge. Unfortunately if you do a search you will find it more often than not incorrectly defined as the flow of electrons.


You state again "it doesn’t" travel outside the wire

How does that comport with the electromagnetic wave - the audio signal - traveling outside the conductor as you claim? Hint: it doesn’t.

Then at one point you contradict yourself in the same post by saying saying energy outside is preposterous, then contradict that by saying some does travel outside.

So the whole idea of "energy" traveling outside the wire is pretty preposterous. Obviously there can be some components such as induced magnetic field outside the wire per se.

The problem with "debating"  you is you are consistently inconsistent. This is very convenient for you since you can quote yourself from an opposing point of view when it is pointed out that something you stated was incorrect. If you are on both sides then you can always quote yourself as being correct. You can say again that you didn’t say it , but the quotes above prove that you did.

What that ultimately means is you are entertaining yourself by engaging us in a discussion that can never conclude because no matter what you say, you will deny you said it and twist your words to mean something else. It is all very clever in a way but ultimately a waste of everyone’s time.... good day

BS

Despite what you say, radio waves are a perfect example of what I was discussing since RF is an EM wave just like the audio is. If that EM wave is outside the wire then the energy from any other EM wave can be too, and is.

As far as being directional, I am not on either side. I did not enter the conversation to discuss that even though I did say I can see why it could be real. I entered at the request of another poster who asked me to clarify something about the transfer of energy and so called "flow of electrons." Since you were one of those spouting misinformation I got drawn into yet another of your countless worthless discussions.

I did not cherry pick... I quoted you directly. If you state three times it must be inside then say it can be outside I would say you have given yourself "wiggle room." I am not here to win anything. I am simply trying to clarify some common misconceptions. As for you, I think you probably understand more than you let on. It appears you just like to argue so you post things that you can easily twist around to suit whichever side you want to be on at the moment. Like I said, clever in a way, but ultimately tiresome. The snarky comments about other people (calling them little girls playing around) doesn’t add anything to the discussion either.

I want to retract my statement "It appears you just like to argue." You obviously love to argue as evidenced by the countless posts you make doing so. With that I again apologize for hijacking the thread and getting into another worthless debate with the master of the worthless debate.

Your only saving grace is some of the stuff you post is so absurd it is sometimes entertaining, but usually not.

Feel free to twist what I said. Like Al and Ralph who had the good sense to drop out earlier... I’m outta here!