It’s lonely at the top, Georgie Boy. How are things on the bottom? 😬
Directionality of wire
I am a fan of Chris Sommovigo's Black Cat and Airwave interconnects. I hope he does not mind me quoting him or naming him on this subject, but Chris does not mark directionality of his IC's. I recently wrote him on the subject and he responded that absent shunting off to ground/dialectric designs, the idea of wire directionality is a complete myth. Same with resistors and fuses. My hunch is that 95% of IC "manufacturers", particularly the one man operations of under $500 IC's mark directionality because they think it lends the appearance of technical sophistication and legitimacy. But even among the "big boys", the myth gets thrown around like so much accepted common knowledge. Thoughts? Someone care to educate me on how a simple IC or PC or speaker cable or fuse without a special shunting scheme can possibly have directionality? It was this comment by Stephen Mejias (then of Audioquest and in the context of Herb Reichert's review of the AQ Niagra 1000) that prompts my question;
Thank you for the excellent question. AudioQuest provided an NRG-10 AC cable for the evaluation. Like all AudioQuest cables, our AC cables use solid conductors that are carefully controlled for low-noise directionality. We see this as a benefit for all applications -- one that becomes especially important when discussing our Niagara units. Because our AC cables use conductors that have been properly controlled for low-noise directionality, they complement the Niagara System’s patented Ground-Noise Dissipation Technology. Other AC cables would work, but may or may not allow the Niagara to reach its full potential. If you'd like more information on our use of directionality to minimize the harmful effects of high-frequency noise, please visit http://www.audioquest.com/directionality-its-all-about-noise/ or the Niagara 1000's owner's manual (available on our website).
Thanks again.
Stephen Mejias
AudioQuest
Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/gramophone-dreams-15-audioquest-niagara-1000-hifiman-he1000-v2-p...
Showing 50 responses by geoffkait
kosst_amojan @jea48 You’re joking, right? You really want me to post pics of me testing a piece of wire both ways with a DMM so you can see there’s no difference? >>> Speaking for myself I prefer that uber skeptics and naysayers not (rpt not) test cables or fuses for direction for obvious reasons. Folks are selling this jazz like 9/11 truthers with rebranded accusations of cognitive dissonance, defying me to prove a negative. >>>>Whatever.. Skin effect is subtle, but that CAN be measured. >>>>>>So can directionality be measured. And very easily, too. Don't you have your listening ears on? Nobody here has cited a phenomenon that would explain a wire being directional because there isn’t one. >>>>>Again, you don't have your listening ears on. The phenomenon has been known for at least 20 years. Have you been living in a cave? If there was a way to build a directional wire, you can bet your ass that you could buy it by the mile. >>>>actually, you can not (rpt not) build a wire that isn't directional. See the irony? High speed data buses are forever plagued with termination challenges, specifically, preventing signal reflections from traveling backwards down the bus. If there was any way to form a directional trace or wire, buses for memory and parallel SCSI wouldn’t require meticulous termination. A big reason computer buses have gone serial hub based point-to-point is because terminating them is a hell of a lot easier and cheaper. >>>>Wire directionality probably would not (rpt not) show up in data communications. I've already addressed this. It's an audiophile thang! 😁 Directionality is pure snake oil. Scour JEDEC and IEEE standards. You won’t find mention of any such phenomenon. >>>>>I doubt you have actually "scoured" those standards or any standards. Besides there are no standards for sound quality or for audiophile cables. There are no standards for many audiophile issues, actually, like polarity. |
almarg Geoff, the gentleman asked a question, and I responded by stating a fact. It was neither an appeal to authority nor a statement that involved logic, fallacious or otherwise. Regards, -- Al >>>>>Of course it’s a logical fallacy. No one ever suggested that wire directionality was evident anywhere except in the audio hobby. So to state that it was never discussed in your high tech/digital workplace sounds a little bit like you’re actually trying to say, since no one ever discussed it in high tech or computers or NASA then it doesn’t exist, therefore audiophiles must be delusional. I.e., some guys with big foreheads somewhere would have found evidence of it. It’s obviously a Strawman Argument, in other words a *logical fallacy*. Is it just coincidence that it was YOU who responded to his question? cheers |
danvignau I guess some of you do not realize that interconnects do not flow a DC current in only one direction. Analogue audio signals are alternating current. The electricity moves back and forth, like the sound waves from your speakers. Directional fuse? Give me a break! If you use balanced interconnects, think about why? >>>>>Sorry, all wire is directional in both DC circuits and AC Circuits. If you have trouble visualizing it I can draw you a picture, in the case of wire and fuses in AC circuits you can ignore the electricity flowing towards the wall outlet. That direction is not audible. The only direction that affects the sound is the direction pointing toward the speakers. That’s why most audiophiles report that fuses and cables sound better in one direction than the other. Even power cords are subject to the rule of directionality, as the dude from Audioquest points out for his new Hurricane power cord. |
costco_emoji, You say no. I say yes. I am not here to carry on a philosophical debate. Take your own advice, lightnen up. Relax, float downstream. This is a hobby, not the Journal of Physics or The Journal of Psychology or the New Scientist. You are putting words in my mouth. I make no such claims as you suggest in your post. Your imagination is working overtime. |
I never said it was not (rpt) feedback on the market place, Georgie. I never said it had anything to do with the forums" In fact (and I hate to judge too harshly here) but my post apparently went waaay over your head. Don’t worry, mate. So you don’t actually have a product? I thought you did. My mistake. |
costco_emoji, I’m laughing on the inside. 😏 I’m afraid you’re putting words in my mouth by characterizing (some of) my tweaks as having a "psychological" effect on the mind. "Psychological" is a perjoritive term that implies the mind is tricked, as with the placebo effect or expectation bias. But my tweaks are not so mundane, they are not cheap parlor tricks. When someone experiences a change to the sound due to one of my clocks being in the room, for example, it is real, as opposed to psychological. The operation on the mind is subconscious, and or conscious, so I suppose in a certain sense you could say it's psychological since it involves the mind. If someone were brought into the room - someone who had llistened to the system previously without the clock - he would also experience the change in sound, even though he's unaware the clock is there. So the effect must be real. Unlike DMT the effect doesn’t wear off. That’s because it’s real, not "psychological." It’s not an hallucination or a placebo, etc. Our sensory perceptions provide us with objective day to day reality. Chemicals can obviously distort that reality. If aliens are present during a hallucination they are actually there. Or are they? You tell me. 👽 |
Look, the standard model of cosmology indicates the total mass–energy of the universe contains 4.9% ordinary matter, 26.8% dark matter and 68.3% dark energy. Thus, dark matter constitutes 84.5% of the total mass, while dark energy plus dark matter constitute 95.1% of total mass–energy content. Not only that but the great majority of ordinary matter in the universe is also unseen. So, what’s the take away here? It is that scientists don’t know WHAT dark matter IS, WHAT dark energy is, WHERE they are or HOW they got there. Hel-loo! If there were no such thing as dark matter, though, I assure you the universe would have stopped expanding some time ago and would currently be in the process of accelerated CONTRACTION, headed for sure disaster. And time would have reversed direction as well. Addendum - If time did not exist man would have to create it. |
Einstein got the Nobel prize for photoelectric effect not relativity, gentle readers. It takes a long, long time before the robed priests of Science dare jump on board any new fangled idea. It's much safer and requires no work to cling to the outdated paradigms of yesteryear. Who wants to get behind some revolutionary idea lest someone would think he's a kook or has lost his mind? Anyone who believes the audio hobby is sheparded by well meaning peer review committees or monitored by NASA is sadly mistaken. Yes, I know what you're thinking, "But what about ____ and _______ and _________? They're very scientific." 🤓 |
costco_emoji I feel kinda bad like I’ve been too hard on the guy. I honestly think he’d be a blast to hang out with. I’m sure I’ll eventually read every word on his site. It’s most definitely snake oil, but he really is an artist in how he sells it. I can see how some people would be pleased with his products. It’s like one of his customers said after buying his Clever Little Clock, to paraphrase, "I don’t know what to say -- I make fun of the things, but I bought another one." This all reminds me of something. Oh, I know what it is! It reminds of a den of Boy Scouts discovering Playboy for the first time. 😳 |
🐏 georgehifi "Lead, follow or get out of the way." You may call yourself a leader Geoff, but it’s of the electronically minded gullible, who believe in the same snake oil you peddle on your website. And that’s nothing to be proud of. http://www.machinadynamica.com >>>>>Actually, Georgie Boy, if you brushed up on your reading comprehension a little bit you’d see I wasn’t actually calling myself a leader. I was calling you a follower. Unfortunately, you’re following the wrong sheep. Baaaa! |
almarg Geoff is actually a magnanimous and beneficent soul. Not infrequently he suggests tweaks that would cost the user nothing, and that provide him with no monetary return. An example is the following excerpt from his post dated 9-7-2012 in this thread: Taking all telephone books out of the house will usually be audible when you go back and listen to the system. Even if the telephone books are in other rooms of the house, they should be removed. The telephone book is perceived as an intruder by virtue of the fact that it is linked to a strong Field created by the tens or hundreds of thousands of identical telephone books. So, the link to that field can be eliminated by removing the telephone books from the house, making the house Safe from the telephone book "information field". Regards, -- Al :-) et tu Brute? 😧 |
Gentle readers, as we have seen on the various fuse threads some folks do not hear wire directionality. Well, some folks don’t hear aftermarket fuses, period. Never mind the direction. But to be fair there are some perfectly good reasons why this is so. Shall we review the reasons some folks don't hear certain tweaks, like fuse or cable direction? 😁 Maybe it’s just me but does anyone else notice it’s almost always the most uh, strident naysayers and no, I won’t mention any names, who claim they don’t hear it? 🙄 "Lead, follow or get out of the way." - Old audiophile expression Geoff Kait Machina Dynamica Advanced Audio Concepts |
blindjim wrote, "sorry. I was just informed about this. It is sheer folly to argue or debate something one can easily prove or disprove using their own equipment. In the case of directionality of wires, just listen to what is goong on now. Take notes. Later, merely disconnect a pair and reinsert them in double reverse order, putting the pos on the neg, and the neg on the pos, plus, backwards from their original installation. Listen after all is warmed up. Listen theu the next few days. Take more notes. Compare the notes. Anthing different? You have your answer." >>>>>>Is it just me or is it getting harder and harder to distinguish sheer sarcasm from earnest suggestions? 😳 |
kosst_amojan I seriously doubt there are millions of people who buy into this directionality fantasy. And by your very description, Geoff, it’s pure fantasy with no basis in reality. We can measure distortion far more accurately than any ear can hear, so where’s the measurements? No measurement means your imagining it, pure and simple. >>>>>What description of mine puts a bee in your bonnet? Directional fuses and directional cables, you know the ones with little arrows on them, have been around almost as long as chunky style peanut butter. Haven’t you been paying attention? HiFi Tuning in Germany, published measurements for many brands of fuses, cryo’d and not cryo’d, glass and ceramic, stock and audiophile brands, in both directions. You must be the only person on this thread who doesn't know that. Wake up and smell the coffee! ☕️ it doesn’t do your side any good to just repeat the same mantra over and over again without doing your homework. So, far your posts are really just Nothing Burgers. 🍔 🍔 🍔 Mmmmmmm, coffee and hamburgers! |
teo_audio What is that difference? Where does it come from? That the number, the measurement and the math can’t find it is utterly meaningless in the face of the observation. That it cannot be scientifically found, does not make the observation invalid. It makes the claimant of science being above and ruling over the validity of observations, observations made by what is actually moving into being millions of people (over the years) --at fault. Audiophiles and their friends and families have been exposed to the directionality question--so it's into the millions of people exposed to the quandary. To add, we’ve now got this huge group of headphone fanatics who are spending mucho cash in this area and they are also caught up in the directionality question. You got me there. I was under the assumption there were only around 200 audiophiles, 250 tops. |
All of those illustrious names are just names. You are a name dropper. Name dropping doesn’t win arguments. It’s an Appeal to Authority, a well-known logical fallacy. Especially in these audio controversies. You forgot Albert Einstein. Follow? You're not going to argue with me? Huh? You just did. Even though it was an illogical argument. |
mitch2 Geoffkait: A simple resistance measurement of a length of wire taken from the spool reveals the proper direction for the entire spool. This indicates the simple resistance measurement will show differences in the resistance of the same piece of wire depending on directionality, correct? >>>>Yes If so, would the manufacturer then orient the wire direction for their cables/fuses so the signal flow is in the direction with the lowest resistance? >>>>Fuses are not controlled for directivity as far as I know, only cables with directional arrows. That's why fuse manufacturers tell customers to try them both ways. Yes, the lower resistance would be in the direction of toward the speakers. Do you have any idea what the delta in directional resistance might be for a typical audio cable, say an 8-foot speaker cable with cross-sectional area of 12 awg? >>>>No How about expressed as a percent of the total resistance? >>>>>Dunno. Is resistance the only electrical property affected by wire directionality? >>>>Obviously, the reciprocal, conductivity. |
There’s no (rpt no) real reason to worry about whether the dielectric may or may not be directional. The much larger issue is the directionality of the wire itself. The directionality of wire used in high end cables, at least by the smart manufacturers, is controlled by determining directionality of the wire as it comes off the spool. A simple resistance measurement of a length of wire taken from the spool reveals the proper direction for the entire spool. Then one would only need to mark the spool FORWARD or BACKWARD. Problem solved. This is not rocket science, gentle readers. The much bigger issue - as I have repeatedly pointed out - is that since ALL WIRE IS DIRECTIONAL then all internal wiring in speakers and electronics, all wire in transformers, all wires in capacitors, etc. should also be controlled by all the various manufacturers for best results. And this would be true whether the wire was used in a DC circuit or an AC circuit. Furthermore, the tiny little wire in all fuses is bare. Air is the best dielectric but air is not directional. And since ALL fuses are directional we can probably conclude it’s the wire itself, not (rpt not) the dielectric material, at least not (rpt not) to any significant degree. This whole wire directionality thing is actually an excellent example of Occam’s razor: Suppose there exist two explanations for an occurrence. In the case of two possibile explanations the simpler one is usually the correct or better one. Another way of saying it is that the more assumptions you have to make, the more unlikely an explanation is. |