But Al, the question does not hinge on whether you think the effect is subtle or whether you would lose any sleep over it. Once again you seem to be arguing just to argue. As with your customary assertion, "well, maybe there is some directionality in wire." It doesn’t matter whether you think it might be too subtle for you to hear. Many audiophiles hear directionality very distinctly. But like anything audio related, the effects vary. For example, the effect of reversing one of many fuses will be masked by the fact some of the other fuses are still in the wrong direction. Obviously there will always be a couple of folks who can’t hear it at all. C’est la vie.
Directionality of wire
I am a fan of Chris Sommovigo's Black Cat and Airwave interconnects. I hope he does not mind me quoting him or naming him on this subject, but Chris does not mark directionality of his IC's. I recently wrote him on the subject and he responded that absent shunting off to ground/dialectric designs, the idea of wire directionality is a complete myth. Same with resistors and fuses. My hunch is that 95% of IC "manufacturers", particularly the one man operations of under $500 IC's mark directionality because they think it lends the appearance of technical sophistication and legitimacy. But even among the "big boys", the myth gets thrown around like so much accepted common knowledge. Thoughts? Someone care to educate me on how a simple IC or PC or speaker cable or fuse without a special shunting scheme can possibly have directionality? It was this comment by Stephen Mejias (then of Audioquest and in the context of Herb Reichert's review of the AQ Niagra 1000) that prompts my question;
Thank you for the excellent question. AudioQuest provided an NRG-10 AC cable for the evaluation. Like all AudioQuest cables, our AC cables use solid conductors that are carefully controlled for low-noise directionality. We see this as a benefit for all applications -- one that becomes especially important when discussing our Niagara units. Because our AC cables use conductors that have been properly controlled for low-noise directionality, they complement the Niagara System’s patented Ground-Noise Dissipation Technology. Other AC cables would work, but may or may not allow the Niagara to reach its full potential. If you'd like more information on our use of directionality to minimize the harmful effects of high-frequency noise, please visit http://www.audioquest.com/directionality-its-all-about-noise/ or the Niagara 1000's owner's manual (available on our website).
Thanks again.
Stephen Mejias
AudioQuest
Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/gramophone-dreams-15-audioquest-niagara-1000-hifiman-he1000-v2-p...
555 responses Add your response
@jea48 The speaker transducer moves forward and backward according to EMF acting on the voice coil - see Faraday’s law and Maxwells equations - so both +ve and -ve current direction along the speaker wire causes transducer movement. A wire with directional properties would be a disaster for reproducing accurate audio. So Audioquest marketing mumbo jumbo is obviously just mumbo jumbo - Otherwise their products would not work . |
| Post removed |
| Post removed |
Koestner, you raise very logical questions. And as usual, the responses and citations provided by Jim (Jea48) are correct. The key to reconciling his comments and yours is that while AC current of course alternates direction, the transfer of energy that is intimately associated with that current is in one direction, from the source of that energy to whatever load it is connected to. (In saying this, though, I’m putting aside reflection effects that occur at high frequencies, as I described earlier in relation to a digital cable. To at least a small degree reflection effects do in fact cause energy to be transferred in both directions, and to at least a small degree cause energy to be absorbed by the source of that energy, as well as by the load. And I’m also putting aside the fact that to the extent a load is capacitive or inductive, as opposed to being purely resistive, it cannot consume energy, although it can store it). Regarding the underlying question, IMO the Audioquest statement on directionality Jim cited earlier amounts to the least implausible explanation of intrinsic wire directionality I have seen. It should be understood, though, that by its nature the noise effects that are referred to in that explanation will be highly system dependent and even location dependent. And as with many effects involving noise, it will not have much if any predictability. Also, as with many other explanations that are proferred for controversial audio effects, a basic problem is that this explanation doesn’t lend itself to being analyzed in a quantitative manner, that would provide a perspective on whether it does or does not have a reasonable possibility of being audibly significant in some or many systems. With further complication being added by the fact that it is extremely easy in audio to attribute perceived effects to the wrong variable, as illustrated by the example of a digital cable that I discussed earlier, and as illustrated more extensively in the recent thread on fuse directionality. When it is not possible or practical to obtain a quantitative perspective on explanations that may be offered for a claimed effect, there is virtually no limit to the explanations that can be conjured up and asserted, rightly or wrongly. In saying all of this, btw, I take no position on the possibility that wire may be intrinsically directional in some systems, to at least a small degree. (And I’m referring here to wire as used in cables, as opposed to the vastly shorter lengths that are used in fuses, whose alleged intrinsic directionality would be swamped by whatever directionality the vastly longer associated wiring may have). But personally I wouldn’t lose any sleep over it. And contrary to one of the comments Geoff made earlier, I certainly wouldn’t avoid the use of balanced cables on the basis of this possibility. Regards, -- Al |
For something to come back, it has to first, go forward. It's that first, forward moving signal that we hear. Speed is the friend of the audiophile. It's why we want faster amps, faster speakers, etc., because it gets us closer to the actual sound we're trying to reproduce. The faster the conductor, the better the sound. Sure, it's "only" a matter of a few percentage points between metals but in the end, one is faster. Refining that metal in certain ways makes it better. We can hear it. Why anyone wants to refute that is beyond me. All the best, Nonoise |
Geoff said: "The only portion that’s audible is the portion that’s traveling toward the speakers. That’s why you can hear wire directionality in AC circuits just like DC circuits. Which is what HiFi Tuning and I have been saying all along. " Geoff, I understand what you are saying! The speaker will only play the signal that is traveling towards it, never the signal that is moving away from it. So you can have proper direction of the cables all the time. That was a subtle, but completely understandable answer. Thank you for taking the time to write that. |
Oh atmasphere! Your right ! I am baiting! Why! The site sells six figure electronics! The forum is always a six figure source of advice! My belief! Make the forum a pay to participate genre!! As to costs, well enough to filter out the improve non sense! It's free and firing up Geo does provide me with amusement! If cost something to post, the Facebook audiogon would disappear! And a got a hundred Geo is going to bust my chops on this! |
fsonicsmith OP Someone said, "Ok, back to your corners guys... Let’s say wire has a direction created from the formation of the wire, and in theory will pass the signal better one direction vs. the other. But wait... music signal is all AC, so whichever way you place the wire it’s still going to be incorrect 1/2 the time, and correct the other half. It’s kind of like a tug-o-war where each side pulls the center ribbon back and forth 20-20,000 times per second. It’s a lot of work, but unless one side is declared the winner, it makes no difference which way you hook up the wire." Bingo-exactly what Chris Sommovigo is saying, I believe.Exactly why even with shield to ground schemes, Chris’ take made me re-think the entire concept of directionality. If the fish scale on wire surfaces theory espoused by AQ and others were correct, we are left to pre-suppose that any competent producer of balanced cables checks the grain structure before assembling the connectors. I doubt that very much. I don’t doubt that there may be a subtle difference with RCA’s when you switch them. Very subtle. Sticking one harmonic dot on the ceiling kind of subtle. It could be due to any number of other things than extruding/grain structure such as dialectric anomalies (inconsistent contact or thickness or properties on a microscopic level), solder joints/connections, or other. >>>>>>Whether you you believe the audio signal is alternating, or you believe the current is alternating or whether you believe the voltage is alternating, you can disregard the signal or current or voltage that’s traveling in the direction toward the source. The only portion that’s audible is the portion that’s traveling toward the speakers. That’s why you can hear wire directionality in AC circuits just like DC circuits. Which is what HiFi Tuning and I have been saying all along. The so called AC argument is the oldest pseudo skeptic argument against wire directionality but in fact doesn’t really mean anything. It’s a nothing burger! 🍔 Wake up and smell the coffee! Sorry, no Bingo. By the way, your arguments regarding RCAs and harmonic dots are not persuasive or germane to the discussion. What you doubt is unimportant. No offense to you personally. |
| Post removed |
| Post removed |
Listen folks, about the only way we are going to clear this up and have a reasonable conversation is to use the report feature found in the lower right hand corner of the offending posts you are seeing here. In this case the offending posts are always coming from the same poster and all of them can be considered trolling. Most of them are also making personal attacks on other members. If we all report him though then there is a possibility that he can be banned; unfortunately rehabilitation seems unlikely. |
Ok, back to your corners guys... Let's say wire has a direction created from the formation of the wire, and in theory will pass the signal better one direction vs. the other. But wait... music signal is all AC, so whichever way you place the wire it's still going to be incorrect 1/2 the time, and correct the other half. It's kind of like a tug-o-war where each side pulls the center ribbon back and forth 20-20,000 times per second. It's a lot of work, but unless one side is declared the winner, it makes no difference which way you hook up the wire.Bingo-exactly what Chris Sommovigo is saying, I believe.Exactly why even with shield to ground schemes, Chris' take made me re-think the entire concept of directionality. If the fish scale on wire surfaces theory espoused by AQ and others were correct, we are left to pre-suppose that any competent producer of balanced cables checks the grain structure before assembling the connectors. I doubt that very much. I don't doubt that there may be a subtle difference with RCA's when you switch them. Very subtle. Sticking one harmonic dot on the ceiling kind of subtle. It could be due to any number of other things than extruding/grain structure such as dialectric anomalies (inconsistent contact or thickness or properties on a microscopic level), solder joints/connections, or other. |
| Post removed |
Doesn't music signal go from the amp's positive to the negative, then from the negative to the positive? This would be an AC signal. The "load" is just a big loop of long wire (speaker plus cables) and the electromagnetic wave changes direction to make the driver cone vibrate. So this changing of direction is what I mean when I say the cables are in the proper direction only half the time. |
| Post removed |
Ok, back to your corners guys... Let's say wire has a direction created from the formation of the wire, and in theory will pass the signal better one direction vs. the other. But wait... music signal is all AC, so whichever way you place the wire it's still going to be incorrect 1/2 the time, and correct the other half. It's kind of like a tug-o-war where each side pulls the center ribbon back and forth 20-20,000 times per second. It's a lot of work, but unless one side is declared the winner, it makes no difference which way you hook up the wire. |
| Post removed |
| Post removed |
| Post removed |
| Post removed |
fsonicsmith OP I’m new here. I posted my OP with sincere interest. I have been informed the topic has been beaten to death previously. I did NOT intend to fan the flames of past bad blood between longstanding participants. I obviously don’t get to play referee or league commissioner. The choice is yours. I am just asking. I’m afraid you’re mistaken. There are no flames of past bad blood between longstanding participants. Yikes! There is no bad blood at all as far as I can tell. There is some forceful debate or discussion sometimes by both sides. And a little humor to ease the tension. 😬 Nothing to be too alarmed about. |
| Post removed |
I'm new here. I posted my OP with sincere interest. I have been informed the topic has been beaten to death previously. I did NOT intend to fan the flames of past bad blood between longstanding participants. I obviously don't get to play referee or league commissioner. The choice is yours. I am just asking. |
| Post removed |
Speaking of cartridges and tonearm wires one wonders if anyone ever tried reversing the tonearm wires to see if there’s a difference in sound. Yes, I realize this would be a royal PITA. Primarily because one might have to try reversing them one at a time. Maybe some tonearm wires come with directional arrows, who knows? That would be nice. Nevertheless, one would imagine low level signal conductors would be rather sensitive to direction. |
pennsy Geoffkait: Your response on my SACD post ( which I removed) had me laughing to the point tears were running down my face! Your dry humor I find amusing! Anyhow, as far as this post! Walter Wegrzyn cable co! He advertises on this site! Search HDMI cables and he will come up! My point: Walter makes custom cables! His HDMI cable (with is directional ) will blow away a Audioquest diamond! I own both! Directional is because copper can be like fish scales under magnification! Certain flow provides less resistance! Actions speak louder than words! Contact Walter! This guys forgotten more than I’ll ever know! I almost exclusively use his cables for my system! My system is just short of 6 figures! Opinions are like belly buttons, everybody has one! Buy Walters cables ! You might change your directional opinion. I hate to judge before all the facts are in but it appears you have drunk some bad Kool Aid. Get on board the wire directionality train. All aboard! And stop following the wrong sheep. 🐏 🐏 🐏 🐏 |
| Post removed |
terry94 As to my remark about the pins of a phono cartridge, it was you who brought up the notion of source. If you now wish to recant, that’s fine with meThere is nothing for me to recant. What I asked was: " What common point do all components in a system share?" A phono cartridge pin is not a "common point" and I never mentioned phono cartridges. As for my knowing something that no one else understands, why so aggressive Cleeds? Why not discuss things on their merits?I’m sorry if you saw my observation as "aggressive." I was simply noting that I’m not aware of any manufacturer of SE cables who suggests that the end with the shield connected should be affixed to anything other than the component closest to the source. By your own admission, you have an unusual system with a battery-operated preamplifier, so I can see why the best solution for you might not be the typical configuration. |
