Directionality Explained

djones51

... I'm not rich so I just look at what tests there are out there that have controlled for biases.

So you make your audio system decisions based on others' test results? That must really limit your choices! Why not conduct your own tests?

Inexpensive cables in the right direction 🔜 can sound better than expensive cables in the wrong direction 🔙 Heck, you can run the experiment yourself, ya know. Just flip whatever cables you have around and listen. If you’re not sure the first time do it again. You can run controlled double blind tests or whatever til you’re blue in the face 🥶 if you want, nobody’s stopping you.

I support the working stiff, the disenfranchised, the have nots, the timid, the destitute and the non technical. Be sure and check with heaudio first cause sure as shootin’ he’ll be jumping down your throat if you say you got good results.

"Again, this logic suggests that our audible ability is so poor we couldn’t tell the difference. But it’s been shown our hearing is highly acute."

I think there are machines that than sense sounds a human cannot. Of course, not every microphone, or whatever is used, will be that good but some are. Also, not every hearing is the same.

When it comes to cables, many tools can figure out, let' say, 1V going through it. I wonder how many humans can sense it when holding that cable. Humans are highly sophisticated in some areas, but machines are getting ahead in some of the other ones.

Are there machines that sense bloviation?

"Are there machines that sense bloviation?"

Man-Machine.

So you make your audio system decisions based on others' test results? That must really limit your choices!

 Not really there's a lot of components that's been tested. Wires I'm like most people, a subjectivist,  if I don't hear a difference then I don't waste money on it. 

He's on a directional streak.  Somebody needs to flip the direction to slow him down :-)

Directionality.
Yes cabling, "All" is directional "to a point",
 from the time the wire itself is first drawn. "It has a polarity", and that is the beginning. Regardless of the process used to draw the wire or the metallurgy involved. In a way, "Many ways in fact". None of that matters when it comes to this concept.
I am not going to begin a treatise here on the interactions "At the subatomic level", of particles and their interactions with other fields, particles and other phenomenon. OR, the field/polarity and wave interaction theories and such. But if you really wish to know the reasoning and means for understanding this concept of, "Directionality". You can look there for a start and see where it takes you..
Proof? We have math. AND your ears. That's it at this point.
But then, All Newton had was a bruised apple.
Personally, I think it is all the fault of a one Mr. "Higgs Boson" myself.
But that's just me!

There was a jollygreenaudiophile1??!

If the impact on frequency response is <0.1db there is little(no) evidence we can detect a difference and even more variance at the upper end of the spectrum to detect a difference. Now try to find a cable not inherently directional, i.e. with circuitry that has 0.1db difference in the audio spectrum by changing direction. Feel free to use square waves for tests with bandwidth limiting and real speakers for transmission line effects.

I don’t think it’s just one number. Anyway, I think our audible perception of music is a bit more complicated than just one or two simple measurements.

Also why ".1dB"? Somebody would come here and say "no, it’s more like 0.08dB". It seems a bit arbitrary.  And it comes back to what has been said "who gets to decide?".

Also you may have a situation in which you have a set of cables all will meet your "0.1dB" threshold, but they all will sound different for obvious reason.

I believe that there are aspects of hearing that machines do not measure.

I think human hearing is just to complicated to be analyzed by just one or two numbers.  

Instruments cannot capture the entire event in any way approaching how we hear. They can only capture a pre determined aspect of a sound. 

Quote-"I believe that there are aspects of hearing that machines do not measure"
.
At the current time I am sure that we are not even asking the "correct" questions. And without those questions how do you measure? What do you measure? What scale is to be used?
Do we really ever use simply "one’, sense at a time? What about that pesky, "Sixth" sense?
How much of a role does "individual perception", play? 
Simply one’s mood can change any "perception". Hence how does that variable factor? 
And in how many ways? New scale?
On and on and on.
Let alone the design of any apparatus to help us measure, "quantify", in any meaningful way or even just to "qualify" in any way at all? Any result?
It Is therefore currently beyond our capabilities. But that shall not be true forever. It could be a relatively long wait though, "In case you happen to be in a hurried state".
Yet,
At least we are having this discussion. Which would never have taken place even a few decades before now. And "This", IS indeed part of the process!
No less important than any other part. "And quite possibly more important than many others".
Therefore;
Congratulations!

Your "involvement", in this thread, has moved "Human Understanding" forward.
By approximately "one", (standard), "iota"!
Shall we go for two?

I have to say it is a bit naive to think one can make some basic measurements of the cables and then trying to correlate that to human perception of music ... just saying.  

Oh dear, oh my... 
Talking about now finding a (my) new hang up. 
Directionalism. Hmph! 🤪

It was suggest somewhere here before, like keep turning them speaker cables' round (an' round it goes...) and THEN 'report' back here, forst any more is ventured, um. 

Dang, like are you now a true believer of the one or other here disputed persuation...? 

Guess what, I now clearly realised having this here psychological block in doing ANY of the sort. At ALL.
Period. Amen. Basta. Genug. 🤪

Like: DON'T TOUCH MY CABLE!
Lest I'd have reason to setup a post 📯 on #metoo! 🙈 

Where does that leave ME?
Quite mentally balanced and contented, despite not knowing squat about the effects of directionality. Why, cause I's not goin' against da flow. That's why! 🤞👋

Get some peace of mind I say, follow the writing, alternatively the chevrons on a sleeve (if you got any) and if all fails, the - > whats name dinges, if you the proud ower of an electron microscope 🔬 <- this ain't good enough, I dare say. 😅

Then if you so wish, come back and tell the tale, otherwise... just enjoy the result, AND of course your new found mucical experience, what ever the result. 🎶 🎵🎶 🎷🎻🎸🎹💃

Meanwhile I'm happy to nurse my ignorance on the sunject. 🤷‍♂️ 

Best Michélle 🇿🇦 
😍

andy2
I have to say it is a bit naive to think one can make some basic measurements of the cables and then trying to correlate that to human perception of music ... just saying.

>>>> It’s not naive at all. That’s what HiFi Tuning some time ago did for fuses. Their measurements of the voltage drop across various brands of fuses, both high end and stock, in both directions 🔛 correlate to listening results. The results are consistent, repeatable and transferrable. Yes, I know what you’re thinking, I never heard that before.

A fuse always sounds best when the lowest voltage drop is in the direction toward the speaker. 🔚 You could almost say it’s a Law. Furthermore, there is the empirical evidence of thousands of high end fuse owners who report directionality of the fuses. Cables, too. Hel-loo!

jollygreenaudiophile2
Quote-"I believe that there are aspects of hearing that machines do not measure"
.
At the current time I am sure that we are not even asking the "correct" questions. And without those questions how do you measure? What do you measure? What scale is to be used?
Do we really ever use simply "one’, sense at a time? What about that pesky, "Sixth" sense?
How much of a role does "individual perception", play?
Simply one’s mood can change any "perception". Hence how does that variable factor?
And in how many ways? New scale?

>>>>As I just posted, this is not some new science or untested theory. The voltage drop across a wire is different for each direction. The best sound of any cable or fuse or wire is when the voltage drop is lowest for the direction toward the speakers. 🔚 Even though the voltage drop difference is quite tiny the correlation to the sound is 🔜consistent🔙 
We still don’t know the mechanism for how/why the sound is changed by physical asymmetry of wire. But I’m open for offers. 

Sound and hearing the amazing things we know in the 21st century.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/hframe.html

Geoffkait,
Quote; We still don’t know the mechanism for how/why the sound is changed by physical asymmetry of wire.

 Hee hee, "In a nut-shell", "That", Is all I was saying really.....
Same-day, Different nut-shell!

Quote;  The voltage drop across a wire is different for each direction. 

And that quote above is "To me", empirical evidence. And is quite difficult to argue with!
 I guess I sometimes get "stuck" when the mechanism or the "Why", and/or the "How" are yet unknowns, and undefined.
But that is just me.

djones512,061 posts05-27-2020 7:28amSound and hearing the amazing things we know in the 21st century.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/hframe.html

>>>>That’s weird. I don’t see wire directionality mentioned anywhere on that site. Or even an explanation of what the audio signal is. Oh well, maybe all those big brains 🧠 will get around to it in the 22nd century. What they omitted is what we don’t know. 😬

I wonder why it isn't mentioned? Oversight I guess. 

Let me see if I rip the wire out of my wall and reverse it instead of reading 121 volts as it does now it's going to read what? 50 volts? 

djones;
Please, Keep us posted on your findings

djones51
I wonder why it isn’t mentioned? Oversight I guess.

>>>>You’re getting warm. It’s because they have too much on their plate already. They have “real science” to contemplate. It takes them ten or twenty years just to contemplate anything. Even if they ever heard of directionality or other audiophile pet projects - which they haven’t - they would not wish to look foolish or gullible in the eyes 👀 of the other stodgy big brains. 🧠 🧠 🧠 Ditto for Schumann frequency generators, aftermarket fuses, Mpingo discs, Silver Rainbow 🌈 Foil, Tiny Little Bowl resonators 🍲 🍲 crystals, cryo’d cables 🥶, things of that nature. They would laugh so hard milk 🥛 would squirt out of their noses 😤😤😤 You don’t want to bring down the whole science community, do you? Same goes for AES. Same ball of wax.

Let's see if I go the other direction in my house the wire would be reversed so the reading on the left side of the house would be less than the right side or viseversa in the event they wired the house backwards. I'll  be sure to get those readings and get back to you jolly. 

I guess they are time constrained although if you dig deep enough in that link they look at phonographs, tape, digital, amplifiers, microphones, mixers, feedback, EQ,speakers and that's just one little section but yeah nothing on backwards wires. 

I don’t think we should limit the discussion since the AC power cord is directional, too. We should not exclude anything, everything is on the table, nothing is off the table. Anything with a wire conductor in it, even stranded cables and power cords. 

djones51
I guess they are time constrained although if you dig deep enough in that link they look at phonographs, tape, digital, amplifiers, microphones, mixers, feedback, EQ,speakers and that’s just one little section but yeah nothing on backwards wires.

>>>>Sounds real interesting. I’ll be sure to jump right on it.

Good for you learning can be fun.

Already tried the speaker cables and interconnects jea48. Doesn't  seem to be any difference in measurements or sound. Yeah I know garbage stereo and deaf. 

Conventional current flow and electron current flow are in opposite directions which one is backwards? 

I’m starting to get a bad feeling in the pit of my stomach. 🤢

Not coming down with Covid-19 are you 🤢

It’s not naive at all. That’s what HiFi Tuning some time ago did for fuses. Their measurements of the voltage drop across various brands of fuses, both high end and stock, in both directions 🔛 correlate to listening results. The results are consistent, repeatable and transferrable. Yes, I know what you’re thinking, I never heard that before.

There are too many variables and I don't know the detail of the test.  It may not have anything to do with direction at all.  The lower resistance reading could come from a number of factor.

Huh? What in tarnation are you talking about? The HiFi Tuning measurements were done to support their contention that HiFi fuses are directional. AND that all fuses are directional. AND by extension all wire. Don’t worry, all other variables were controlled. - your friend and humble test guru

^ link?  Otherwise it's just your words.  I have to say it's not easy to trust your words.

Told you guys over 200 posts ago -

"Are not!"
"Are too!"
"Are not! "
"Are too!"

 Who will be the first to get pushed off the swings at recess, and in what direction?

 I'm  not sure but I think this is the link.

http://www.hifi-tuning.com/pdf/wlfr.eng.pdf

Well it’s hard to argue with regard to directionality against the data if indeed the data are valid.  One thing is the average difference is about 0.000005 Ohm (or about in that neighborhood).  Given the difference is so small, has the data been "massaged"?  Also the study didn't mention the sonic difference with respect to directionality - only show DC resistance.

It's an AC signal, for crying out loud, anything it does in one direction it will do in the other.

It’s an AC signal, for crying out loud, anything it does in one direction it will do in the other.

It’s already been discussed to death. AC current is "directional". Need to go back and read previous posts.  Or google "Poynting vector".

I don't understand why you keep bringing up poynting vector? 

I don't think I "keep bringing it up".  I just want to point out the origin of the argument.

OMG

Still going strong...
All - give it up !
All AC currents flowing around you just looking @ this farce and pondering...wtf?
Do something else...bake a cake, rake leafs, shovel snow, water you gardens, wash, wax and polish your Cutlass...or.....or....listen to some music!

Back to the study, that fact that the difference of resistance in both direction is so small, it does beg the question if the study was valid or the data been massaged or skewed?

Also nowhere in the study said anything about listening impression vs. direction of the fuses.

djones51,

"...if I rip the wire out of my wall and reverse it instead of reading 121 volts as it does now it's going to read what?"

That is easy. It will read exactly 121. 121 is 121 going backwards. So, you are safe.

Or it will read 120.99999999.....