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Directionality Explained
I have read it argued against by those who think they know
Here is proof
Paul Speltz Founder of ANTICABLES shares his thoughts about wire directionality. Dear Fellow Audiophiles, As an electronic engineer, I struggled years ago with the idea of wire being directional because it did not fit into any of the electrical models I had learned. It simply did not make sense to me that an alternating music signal should favor a direction in a conductor. One of the great things about our audio hobby is that we are able to hear things well before we can explain them; and just because we can’t explain something, doesn't mean that it is not real.
https://www.monoandstereo.com/2020/05/wire-directionality.html#more
Here is proof
Paul Speltz Founder of ANTICABLES shares his thoughts about wire directionality. Dear Fellow Audiophiles, As an electronic engineer, I struggled years ago with the idea of wire being directional because it did not fit into any of the electrical models I had learned. It simply did not make sense to me that an alternating music signal should favor a direction in a conductor. One of the great things about our audio hobby is that we are able to hear things well before we can explain them; and just because we can’t explain something, doesn't mean that it is not real.
https://www.monoandstereo.com/2020/05/wire-directionality.html#more
456 responses Add your response
a quickie 'wire directionality' search popped up a stereophile link with this from our own geoff kait "Wire directionality, how bad is it? People wonder all the time, is wire really directional and does it really affect the sound? Skeptics say no, wire is not directional, citing alternating current as the "proof" that wire can’t be directional since the current alternates 60 times per second back and forth along the cable so that the net loss of gain is zero. Unfortunately if wire directionality is REAL then audiophiles are in a lot bigger trouble than they probably realized. The reason they’re in deep kim chi is because if wire is directional that means that all internal wiring in components is directional, all speaker internal wiring, all crossover networks are directional, capacitors, inductors and resistors are all directional, not to mention all cabling, including stranded conductors, all speaker cables and digital cables. Oh, and fuses, of course, as well as transformers. Possibly power cords, too, and house wiring. Even stranded wire is directional since each strand is drawn through a die prior to being spooled up. It is that final die that determines the wire’s directionality. The crystal structure is deformed so that the surface and even below the surface the crystal structure favors one direction over the other. Like stroking a porcupines back it’s easier to do in the direction the quills are pointing than against that direction. Now hard would it be to keep track of all the wires as they come through the final die? Would it kill the manufacturers to ensure that all capacitors, wiring, inductors, transformers are installed in the proper direction?! Geoff Kait I agree, that’s a lot of trouble, IF you choose to believe it. Elliott |
I have forgotten the details of what I learned, but not that the knowledge exists, and where/how it is used, and many of the other things I learned and forgot the details on provided the framework for understanding other pieces of knowledge. When presented with a problem, I can draw on the tools I know exist, and brush up on fundamentals as needed. It all comes down to the nature of you job, and people please don't take offence. In many trades, and many "professional" jobs, a large portion of the knowledge set is expected to be readily available, whether it is the mechanic at the dealership, your electrician, construction carpenter, your accountant, your dentist, your GP, a lot of civil engineering, they are almost always working from knowledge readily at hand. Contrast that to R&D engineers, medical researchers, many software developers, custom carpentry, etc. In one instance we expect an instant result. I bring my car in, you change the brakes. My tooth aches, you stop it. Do my taxes. Contrast that to where the outcome is less defined, and the path to get there is also less defined, not to mention the deliverable is not immediate. geoffkait21,956 posts05-21-2020 8:43amMost people forget rather quickly whatever they were taught in school, just my observation. l mean, come on, most people don’t even use what they learned after they get out. |
@elliottbnewcombjr, what can I tell you? I get around. Stereophile forum RIP. 🙏 Round round get around, I get around, yeah (Get around round round I get around, ooh-ooh) I get around From town to town (get around round round I get around) I’m a real cool head (get around round round I get around) I’m makin’ real good bread (get around round round I get around) |
I assume at 50-63V. You won't get 105C/10K hours in those values unless you build it from a bunch of smaller ones. You may find one, but very expensive. There are 8,000 hours at 105C and that is likely close enough. Nichicon, UCC (United Chemicon), Kemet, TDK, Cornell all have stuff up in that size area and all reputable. The high temp, long life are typically high ripple/low ESR as well. Most caps in audio I have found are 85C/2000 hours. Keep in mind even though they are 105C/10K hours, pretty much all bets are off once you get to about 15-20 years. I would even trust many of the Asian brands if I knew I was getting the real thing, but unless you are buying from an authorized distributor (Arrow, Mouser, Digikey, Future, Avnet, Mouser ... etc.) you are taking your chances. |
Grades are based on how well the student memorizes whatever is in the book, right, or wrongwhat ???? I guess maybe only when you are studying some brain washing courses filled with leftist dogmas and worn out slogans that you have to memorize in order to become some kind of commisar or a SJW blogger or some other non contributing to society moron... Not in engineering...that is why you don't see many engineers in politics...they can think and solve problems... |
glupson You are not that knowledgeable. I like teaching you. A lighter made in heaven. >>>>Do you have a new ghost writer? That one was almost funny. |
I wonder if having a preference for wire direction correlates to a sensitivity to absolute polarity. I don’t think the physics of preferential flow direction are being questioned here. Geometry can create those conditions. Look at the Tesla valve in fluid flow for an analogous example. Diodes aren’t strictly geometry but are definitely have a directional bias. Since the structure of cable is not assumed to be perfect it should logically follow that one direction could have slightly different physical characteristics. I think where most people object is that since audio is composed of AC then the effect of these differences should cancel out. There are people able to tell if an audio track is phase inverted. I think some entire albums are or only certain tracks. Some components also are phase inverting. I’ve never heard it so I can’t verify it. I believe this is why there is a phase inversion switch on some preamps. So if the electrons flow more easily in one direction than the other then perhaps those sensitive to absolute phase would be able to detect a difference. Can the same effect of reversing a cable’s direction be achieved by swapping the polarity on one end? My tin ears have never experienced it so I’m genuinely curious. Maybe some of those that have definite preferences in their own system can experiment for the edification of the rest of us. |
cat_doorman I wonder if having a preference for wire direction correlates to a sensitivity to absolute polarity. I don’t think the physics of preferential flow direction are being questioned here. Geometry can create those conditions. Look at the Tesla valve in fluid flow for an analogous example. Diodes aren’t strictly geometry but are definitely have a directional bias. Since the structure of cable is not assumed to be perfect it should logically follow that one direction could have slightly different physical characteristics. I think where most people object is that since audio is composed of AC then the effect of these differences should cancel out. >>>>>The theory of wire directionality is based on the premise that wire is actually not symmetrical physically. The crystal lattice structure of pure molten copper and copper when it has cooled is symmetrical; however, that symmetrical structure is 🔜 deformed 🔙 during manufacture, especially when the copper wire is pulled through the final die, although most likely deformation has already occurred during pulling through previous dies. Thus, the crystal lattice structure is no longer symmetrical, far from it. Like quills on a porcupine’s back. 🔙 🔙 🔙 One assumes photons prefer to travel in the direction of the quills. 🤗 Absolute polarity is a separate issue. It’s not actually correct to say wires act like diodes. Directionality is an audiophile effect, audible, but not an effect that shows up in other applications. Absolute polarity can easily be separated from wire directionality of wire experimentally. |
@geoffkaitYes, but what if the direction the cable is pulled through the dies is reversed for each pass? Thus, the directionality imparted via the first pass through the die is neutralized via the second (reverse direction) pass. How do we know this isn't SOP? |
You can put Humpty Dumpty back together again. The decreasing diameter of the dies insures that you can’t get back to a symmetrical lattice structure no matter what you do, even if the wire is reversed from one die to the next. which it almost certainly isn’t. Why would it? If it doesn’t make sense it’s not true. You guys will think up all kinds of crazy things, though. I’m only humoring humoring you. 🤗 |
After it is pulled through the die it goes through annealing where recrystalization occurs. Electrons is copper bounce around every which direction voltage is applied causing charge flow. Nothing about this process would cause audible differences in which direction the voltage is applied to the wire. Instruments can measure well beyond human hearing no golden ears required. |
If you cant' reverse the physical deformation once it's occurred then why do you go on incessantly about cryogenic treatment? .... you can't say something can't be changed, then say you can make a change. Which is it? Your ignorance w.r.t. annealing does not make it untrue either, but it is not like we are keeping a running count of foot in the mouth disease. |
Hey, Jonsey! Let me ‘splain something to you. Let’s say you take a thin copper sheet and you beat it all around on one side with a hammer for five minutes. Then you anneal the hammered copper sheet. Do you actually believe the copper sheet will be healed to almost It’s original condition? That doesn’t even make sense to a five year old. |
During first stage recovery after drawing copper wire there is an internal rearrangement of the microstrcuture, second stage recrystalization recovers mechanical and electrical characteristics. If this didn't occur the wire would have microscopic holes and deformations reducing conductivity. Whatever you do with your beat up sheet of copper I hope it isn't making a flat cover for a table, if so then heating and forming to restore to its it's original condition would help out. |
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danvignau If wire is directional, does each leg of a speaker cable flow in the opposite direction from the other> One wire supplies power to push the speaker; the pulls it. As I have said before, A/C power and speaker push pull current, does not just flow out like water from a faucet. >>>>Were you about to make a point regarding directionality? You described alternating current but it seems like something’s missing. |
kozka What if we have a daughter? you mean, like with the fly kite guy?....hmmm....rather impossible...this would require at least 3 minutes intimate commitment on his side...but has not time....he is constantly on this board.. >>>>The Air Force never sleeps. Snooze you lose bozo. |
Why is heaudio123 on this thread? Because he’s a troll and a stalker. Did someone forget to put out the Roach Motels last night? It’s getting so you can’t have discussion about a topic above the grasp of a tenth grader without attracting this kind of behavior. Yes, I know what you’re thinking, heaudio, “But I want to BE somebody!” We’re not exactly sure why justmetoo is here. Most likely another trouble maker. |
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