Direct Drive

A direct drive transmits motion to a system or object requiring actuation without the use of any further mechanical components.

I thought he (@mijostyn) said he liked Thorens’ 1600 BD over anything within twice it’s price.

I owe Mijo an apology. He referenced the STST because  it is DD (and apparently suspended). So he was not being disloyal to his favorite suspended BD turntables, SOTA or Helix.

@lewm - I thought that @mijostyn was a SOTA guy. I agree with you on wall shelves for tables - especially lightweight ones like Rega for guys like me with suspended wood floors. I have mine sitting on top of a Townshend platform that sits on the shelf for maximum isolation. As per Roy Gandy, a turntable is simply a vibration measuring machine.

I think the DD vs. Belt debate is moot though, like most other general ones (digital vs. vinyl, SS vs. tubes, open vs. closed baffle, planar vs. boxes, etc.) as it depends on the execution and implementation of the specific product.

Mijostyn, Have you fallen out of love with the Dohmann Helix? Also, you can add a Herzan or Minus K shelf to any non-suspended turntable and be better off than with any spring-suspended turntable, BD or not, because all spring-suspended BD turntables have to face the dilemma of what to do with the motor. If the motor is not also suspended, then you have the susceptibility to belt stretch when the suspension flexes. Belt stretching causes speed irregularity. If the motor IS suspended along with the bearing and platter, then you are not isolating the bearing/platter from motor vibration, except via the energy absorption afforded by the belt itself. For the belt to dissipate vibration from the motor it must be at least somewhat compliant. To the degree that the belt is compliant, then you have the possibility for "belt creep". And the beat goes on.

at least do a search before asking such a broad question, many forum threads are devoted to the recent Technics 1200 series.  

in short they are audiophile no brainers.  

The only direct drive I would have any interest in would be the STST Motus II. It is the only DD turntable I know of that is properly suspended. Otherwise stick to belt drive. It is a much safer bet. 

The Thorens TD 1600 is an amazing turntable for the price. It has a great tonearm to boot. For $4000 you get a turntable that you can not surpass until you spend over twice as much.

I enjoyed the Rega P5, which I owned for about 5 years, on discs when the speed instability issues weren’t so prominent. Although the Moonlight Sonata sounded terrible, as noted, some other works such as the Second Bartok Piano Concerto really snapped into focus for me. There was real energy in the music that even the excellent digital transfer just didn’t quite capture and it increased my appreciation of the piece. However I listen to a lot of Piano Music, such as Chopin, Debussy, Satite, Beethoven, Mozart, and as someone noted upthread Piano Music is a severe test for turntables. Ultimately I didn’t want a tt that excelled on some records, was terrible on others and somewhere in between on most. The Clearaudio didn’t suffer speed instability but it also never made me say "Wow, I have to hear that piece again right now!" either, which the Rega did frequently

@goofyfoot - don't know anything about the 78 table. I think there are some tables out there that offer that speed, just like being able to switch to 45.

Yes, the RB3000 is almost double the price of the RB880 - that's why I was told to stick with the 880 if I had a well isolated application. Rega almost doubles the price with each upgrade in their arm line, not offering too many options (for turntables either). They believe in simplicity and continuous improvement and value.

Sorry @theophile - that's what happens here on the 'Gon. I have no problem with direct drive tables - I owned one for 20 years or so (it was fully automatic). Had a linear tracking arm as well. After it broke, I bought one the most basic manual tables out there (a Music Hall MMF 5 I think) and it blew the direct drive away on SQ. I would be belt tables are more reliable than direct drive in general, but it depends on the individual model. Also, I would bet all things being equal (which they practically never are) the direct drive mechanism is more expensive than belt's. 

@theophile the gear is still there, but it disappears after 30 minutes.  I actually used it on this post.

Proof the knows not. Failure to proofreaad. Audiogon once offered a gear icom the edit the post after posting for a limited time. I no longer notice that Must be the consequence of sinful actions.

Of cause a thread about Direct Drive turntables has been turned by sheer weight of numbers, hijacking the subject, to a belt drive thread. Is no discusson of Direct Drives to be tolerated?

Oh, I realise my comment can never go unflamed( The Fires of Driect Drive Hell). Not flames from the The Only Possesors Of The Truth. Just the deserved consequneces of my disbeilief. The only destiny of the Eternally Mislead. Yes foul believers in Untruth. We shall never be tolerated whilie there is breath in the lungs of The Only Knowers Of Truth and The Eternnal Damners of Heresy seek out the heretics and silence their Damned discussion. Thank GOD I found the gear icon Dyslexia is a curse. 

What an impertinent heretic has DARED to ask for this to actually resume being a Direct Drive discussion thread again? Cast his vile body into the flames of direct drive(spit) Hell. Forever. His words contaminate the ears of the fools and the easily impressionable. This impertinenence of lack of due respect for The Only True path must be silenced at every mention...

True to his evil, is that I owned, and thought many a Quality belt drive turntable was the Only True Path. But now I am one of the blind.

@dover @sokogear  Know anything about the Rega 78 table and cartridge combination? Seems like the best option for 78 shellac records. Also, it's large leap in price from the Rega 880 to the 3000.

Threaded VTA adjusters are available for any Rega mount.

Yes but you need to be careful that they can be locked and rigidly mounted to the armband or plinth.

Some of the early Rega VTA adjusters ended up with the arm simply sitting in the hole.

I’ve used a van den Hul MC one Special with excellent results for about 10 years. Great stylus life and detailed dynamic SQ.

@dover Threaded VTA adjusters are available for any Rega mount. https://soundsupports.co.uk/Rega%20Related%20Products/

Of course Rega wants their customers to buy Rega cartridges but to me that seems limiting. I do believe in the compatibility factor, meaning certain cartridges perform better with certain tonearms. But Clearaudio cartridges with Clearaudio tables and Rega cartridges with Rega tables; on that I'm not yet sold.

@goofyfoot 

I use to sell a lot of Audio Technica OC9's which worked particularly well with the Rega arms.

The early Rega moving coils for me we're a bit "hard" sounding - partly I suspect because they had unusual impedance requirements and really sounded best with the Rega phono which used input transformers matched to the cartridge.

However I know someone who has run Shelters & Benz's with the Rega arms with good results and has just taken delivery of the top 2 Rega MC cartridges and is really impressed - they are way better than the older models and ahead of the Benz/Shelter's

Since VTA is not adjustable easily on the Rega arms going with the latest Rega MC's has a big advantage with ease of set up.

I believe lighter cartridges are better for Rega tables.

@dover The OL's use gimbal bearings. OL incorporates a floating bearing design  but I don't believe they're loose. My thought is that one would have to do a side by side comparison to determine which arms sounds better. I'd expect to see  comparisons of Rega and OL reviewed online but oddly I cannot find any. The Rega price tag is enticing.

Out of curiosity, are there certain stereo and/or mono cartridge that match up especially well with the Rega arms? 

The Rega has been OEM for many decks and has formed the basis of: Townshend; Origin Live; Audio Note; Funk Firm; Audiomods and I’m sure others too. It’s for good reason - a fundamentally excellent design where the economies of scale bring about high manufacturing quality - like current IKEA kitchens - not the last word by any means but fundamentally very consistent build due to the fact when you manufacture in large numbers you simply can’t get away with mistakes and flaws. I am told they don’t go with Linns for some reason though.

I agree with @dover - when I had my P5, I first upgraded the arm from the RB700 to the one on the P8 - the RB880 (it wasn't available by itself, but my dealer took one off the new P8 for me and sold that table to someone else who wanted the new P8 - the P10 wasn't out yet, and he wanted the best Rega arm at that point, which was the RB1000). Since then, the P10 came out with the flagship arm (other than the cost no object Naiad), the RB3000 (not sure why they skipped the 2000-ask the Marketing guys). I was thinking of upgrading to that arm, but was told if my table was properly isolated, it wasn't worth the premium.

The arm upgrade from the RB700 to the RB880 was a shocking improvement. A while later, I decided to urge the table itself to the P8 (I try to not spend big bucks all at once) and to be honest, the improvement in the table was not nearly as much as the arm. Mainly it was better wiring and dust cover and sound to some degree. 

So yeah, the Rega arms are a great value (never had one below the RB700), but I know the early ones were legendary and IMHO anyone with a Rega table who upgrades to a non-Rega arm is nuts.

And yeah, I am sure SME and Graham arms and some high end Origin Lives are better, but at a much higher cost. 

@goofyfoot 

Their early arms were poor - modified Regas.

I haven't seen their latest top arms but they use a different principle with the main bearings. As I understand the OL bearings are "loose" and rely on stylus drag to lock in. Roksan used a similar principle with their Artemiz.

The top Rega arms use traditional gimbal bearings are handbuilt and take many man hours - each part is "blueprinted" and triple checked before during and after assembly.

This is not unique - most of the great arms Breuer, Sumiko MDC800 for example were great, not because of unique design, but because they were hand assembled by a superior artisan. both arms I mentioned were only ever made by 1 person.

I believe one of the things that should be recognized here is whether a vintage table would be preferable to a modern table. Micro-Seiki made some great DD tables but many believe the newer tables to be better. I'd say decide for yourself as either is just a preference.

@dover So your saying that the Rega arms are built better than the OL arms. I've been told differently by a dealer of both brands but I wouldn't rule it out. I doubt either tonearms are built like an SME, Triplaner, and many others at that level.

@goofyfoot 

@sokogear I can't understand why most Rega owners wouldn't opt for Origin Live tonearms. OL turned the Rega on its head and is considered a bargain.

I can, I have seen piles of OL tonearms at the Rega factory with stuffed bearings.

The venerable Rega RB300 and its successors are probably one the highest selling tonearms to the DIY community.

The top Rega arms are significantly better. The reason you don't see them separately much is that most Rega buyers mostly buy a complete package.

@sokogear 

By P9 I mean the old RP9/Rega 9 - I thought you would have known that.

The point was that the top Rega TT's have the power supply tuned/optimised to the actual motor used in that unit.

@sokogear And the tonearm is the best part of the Rega table? I’m not that well versed in Rega tables but that doesn’t seem too encouraging. People rave about Rega tables but I don’t hear praise about the Rega tonearm by itself so there is something that I’m not getting.

@dover - there is no P9.

@goofyfoot - Rega owners get the tonearm as part of the turntable. Also, Live Origin seems to have very few dealers in the US, and I would want support in the installation and an assurance of compatibility if I were to get a table that doesn't come with an arm like a SOTA or JE Michell which I've heard good things about, which by the way, both of them offer Rega arms already installed on their tables.

I love my 1200G. 

DD Micro-Seiki

https://www.vinylengine.com/library/micro-seiki/dd-20.shtml

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/micro-seiki-jewel-rack

They also have a different PSU for the P10. maybe because it has a different platter and beefier bearing.

With the P9/10 the power supply is hand tuned to match the specific motor that it is going to drive. In other words the power supply and motor are a matched pair in the P10.

@sokogear I can't understand why most Rega owners wouldn't opt for Origin Live tonearms. OL turned the Rega on its head and is considered a bargain.

They also have a different PSU for the P10. maybe because it has a different platter and beefier bearing.

@mahler123  - wow - what a bad experience. I don't blame you for bad mouthing Rega. I would too. Maybe it was a problem with the US distributor because now (for as long as I can remember) they warranty the products for life (except for accidental damage or normal wear and tear for things like the belt).

They did change the PSU, because the one I have is different than the one I had with the P5. They changed the wiring plugs so it doesn't dislodge as easily when you bump into it. Just like they beefed up the wiring from the table to the phono stage. They continually improve their products. The best thing about Rega is their arms - hard to beat them for more than twice the price, and since they are included with the tables, it makes them a bargain. But not if they don't treat you right.

I haven't heard many complaints about them (really any), and my dealer is VERY objective - kind of a turntable geek (builds and modifies them) and he likes them a lot - for over 30 years. 

Empire made a beast of a turntable with low Wow and Flutter measurements. There were a number of models but I believe the 698 was it's better achievement. It's generally disregarded by the public majority.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/363282549682?chn=ps&_trkparms=ispr%3D1&amdata=enc%3A1y9s5pBFbQsWf9Z_nY3XUKQ74&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-213727-13078-0&mkcid=2&itemid=363282549682&targetid=4580702891777579&device=c&mktype=&googleloc=&poi=&campaignid=418640321&mkgroupid=1233652283797640&rlsatarget=pla-4580702891777579&abcId=9300602&merchantid=51291&msclkid=1cc3572a697a1bf8809834383450f7cd 

@sokogear

With all due respect, been there, done that, about a decade ago. Details a bit fuzzy

now. There was a (red?) status light that would go on with every use,  stopped going on. I took it out of the system. As previously mentioned, this didn’t change the speed instability issues one iota, which led me to conclude the whole product was either a hoax or else that it was broken from day one. I took it to the dealer (Holm Audio, Woodridge Illinois). Over the succeeding weeks they told me they had multiple calls with Rega. Keep in mind that it was still under warranty. Rega refused to accept the item back, basically claiming that it was impossible that it could be defective. I filed a complaint with the Consumer Protection Agency and the Better Business Bureau.

They then took it back, returned it to me 6 months later (and multiple calls) unchanged. Status light still didn’t work, table sounded no different with it plugged in, but guess what...it was no longer under warranty! Rega offered to sell me a new one at a $25 dollar discount as their "final offer" settlement. I declined their generosity.

  It also made me wonder..how bad is the speed stability, and the feedback that they must get about it from consumers, if they had to invent an entirely new product to correct a flaw which shouldn't have been there in the first place?

If the TTPSU sounded the same with and without then it was probably spinning at the correct speed. If it broke (can't see how that could happen since it is a box with no moving parts, but maybe something internal failed?),Rega would replace it. You could even call their US location - they are very responsive- they pick up the phone!  

In any case, the market for Regas is strong for a reason. When I sold my P5, I got $300 for the PSU! I sold it separately since I had previously upgraded the arm and sold the table and PSU individually separately. Sorry you don't like them, maybe you didn't have it properly isolated.

I think that for a few hundred dollars more  it would be better to get the Technics SL 1200GR with the cartridge of your preference and you'll be done. BUT there's a few upgrades that you could  (if wanted) to bring it to almost the Sl1200G level.

You can6go wrong with Technics at that level. Plus is more modern, and better overall from the ones of the past. 

@best-groove 

read further down the thread

  I had the TTU.  $400 wasted.  I used it from day one.  It broke I took it back to the dealer and they couldnt fix it even though it was under warranty.  It sounded the same with and without.

Did you have the TT-PSU with the Rega P5? It was an option on that model (great one - I used to own, discontinued a while back) that should eliminate any speed variations that are noticeable to the human ear. The PSU is standard on the P6 on up I believe. 

They take care of any speed issues, and if you are really anal, they are now adjustable down to a miniscule level (I think .1%), if you want to do so using a strobe. My dealer said it is almost impossible to tell the difference of a minor adjustment and they come out of the box right on the money. Also, belts last an incredibly long time and now most come with 2 belts as part of the design to make them even more stable and long lasting.

I like Rega's simplicity, sound, value and incredible arms for the buck. Anybody else out there give a lifetime guarantee? I have a P8 and think that is the sweet spot for value in their line, and they're probably the only company with a range from the lowest price point to the highest. Naiad is $40K and supposedly unreal. 

Anybody have or heard one of them?

The only issue with Rega is you have to make sure to minimize vibrations, especially from a suspended floor. That's why they sell wall mounted shelves. I have a Townshend Seismic Platform that was a huge improvement (and I use a wall shelf for double vibration elimination).

I have to wonder why this table would be as expensive as it is?

simple .... because it is not a big company like Japanese factory were (Sony, Technics, Yamaha, Jvc etc.etc.) to design a DD engine costs a lot in research and development; furthermore VPI will never sell as many DD turntables as the Japanese companies have sold which consequently the cost is passed on to the few pieces that VPI has produced and will sell.

and a Clearaudio Concept which was boring as hell.

what did Clearaudio have to define it as "boring"?

Congratulations, Mahler123. Really looking forward to your listening impressions when you get the deck - and the stylus upgrade is a good move.

I second @blisshifi's recommendation: Vintage Kenwood KD 500s are good, affordable DD turntables. Mine has a Fidelity Research FR 54 tonearm and an Adcom HC/E cartridge on it and it is one of the more musical combos I own. Not everyone appreciates the composite plinth's look, but they do sound great!

@snilf I've been modifying my TD145 MK1. It's a dedicated mono table. I just need to buy and install an Origin Live tonearm and an EMT mono cartridge and then I'm done. Right now I have the original but upgraded TP-16 and an AT 33 Mono Anniversary cartridge. I have to admit certain pressings sound very good but the end goal should smoke what I have now.

I listen to a lot of records and have only vintage DD. Three of them. All Denon. 55F with Unitrac and DL301; DP47 with Grado Sonata and Stanton 881s; and DP59 with DL301 mkii. I doubt I will change although I did think a VPI was equal or a tad better but at what cost an inconvenience and finickiness. Have tried Music Hall 5.1 (years ago), Rega P6, Mofi Ultradeck and found none of them as good as the 47 let alone the 55. I did have a Technics about 15 years ago. Was not impressed. Although I guess the new ones are much better. If you can find a used vintage Denon in good shape for half the price of a new Technics 1500 then consider it. I got all mine before turntable inflation. But considering how much better they were than new belt ones they may still be a deal. If you have 8k for a Basis or the space and patience for a VPI, maybe you will come ahead sonically. But at midfi you won't do better than a used Denon DP, the better vintage models.

Nice vintage DD deck to consider also is the Sony ps-x50 (60 and 70 also, with rising price of course). It has the legendary PUA-7 tonearm. I own one and love it.