It’s easy to make snide remarks like “yes- I do the opposite of what he says.” And in some respects I agree, but if you do that, this is just going to be taken down. So I’m asking a serious question. Has ASR actually changed your opinion on anything? For me, I would say 2 things. I am a conservatory-trained musician and I do trust my ears. But ASR has reminded me to double check my opinions on a piece of gear to make sure I’m not imagining improvements. Not to get into double blind testing, but just to keep in mind that the brain can be fooled and make doubly sure that I’m hearing what I think I’m hearing. The second is power conditioning. I went from an expensive box back to my wiremold and I really don’t think I can hear a difference. I think that now that I understand the engineering behind AC use in an audio component, I am not convinced that power conditioning affects the component output. I think.
So please resist the urge to pile on. I think this could be a worthwhile discussion if that’s possible anymore. I hope it is.
@mapman: what is Amir selling in Audiogon? I fail to see any Amir’s items for sale on his profile. Zero items sold either. Do you care to elaborate on your statement ?
Audiogon is a business that makes money by enabling sales.
Please explain to me: how does Audiogon make money out of this? Other from deflection of Audiogon users to ASR ( Amir’s own website Amir Science Review). Are you implying Amir is paying Audiogon (under the table) to post here promoting his site?
So after all this we find that measurements are pretty useless for telling us how something will sound. So going to ASR to judge HI FI products is pretty useless.
Maggies sound terrible according to the measurements. And cheap Topping DACs sound great because they measure that way. And measuring before listening is the way to really hear. How can one know to what to hear before seeing the specs.
Galen Gareis, formerly head of design for Belden offers many technical specs and reasons why he designed his Iconoclast cables, and offers specs on each cable that ships.
Specs that have nothing to do with audio performance. They are nice people with good intentions so lent me review samples (after I tried to buy them). Here is the review of the iconoclast cable where I showed not only with measurements that the cable does nothing compared to a generic one, but also with a null test of music:
As you see, the null shows nothing but noise at threshold of hearing (which is the limit of the test). The files and null output are there to listen to.
Net, net, please don't be impressed by fancy looking "specs." If you trust your ears, ask the manufacturer for ears-only controlled listening test results. If you are in favor of measurements, ask them for measurements of the output of the audio device, NOT the cable/tweak. If that doesn't change, then the cable is not doing anything extra for the 10 to 20X more money you spent on it.
Maggies sound terrible according to the measurements.
I assume you mean Magnepan LRS and not the entire line as I have only reviewed that. Assuming you do mean the LRS, there were clear audible issues as well to my ears:
Subjective Speaker Listening Tests
I first positioned the panel right at me and started to play. What I heard sounded like it was coming from a deep well! I then dropped the little rings on the stand and repositioned the speaker as you see in the picture (less toed in). That made a big difference and for a few clips I enjoyed decent sound. Then I played something with bass and it was as if the speaker was drowned under water again. It wasn't just absence of deep bass but rather, quietness on top of that.
Even when the speaker sounded "good" you would hear these spatial and level shifts that was really strange. As the singers voice changed tonality, it would sometimes shift left and right. And change in level no doubt due to uneven frequency response. There was also some strange extended tail to some high frequency notes that would seem to go on forever.
Just when I thought I had the speaker dialed in, I leaned back some and the tonality got destroyed. You had to sit in the proverbial vice around your head to get the "right" sound out of LRS.
I applied a quick and dirty inverse fix to the response to get some semblance of neutrality:
The one PEQ shown, combined with an overall lift of the entire response made a huge difference. Speaker was no longer dull, lacking both bass and treble. Alas, after listening some, the highs got to me so I put in the right filter to fix that. And while the LRS could handle the boost in low frequencies well, bringing for the first time some tactile feedback, it did start to bottom out so I had to put that sharp filter for extreme lows.
Once there, I was kind of happy until I played the soundtrack you see at the bottom. Man did it sound horrid. Bland and some of the worse bass I have heard.
When it did sound good -- which was on typical show audiophile tracks -- the experience was good. Alas, every track would sound similar with the same height and spatial effects.
This is a highly specialized speaker that has poor general purpose. People fall in love with its spatial qualities due to dipole design and tall image it provides. So not surprised you speak as if it is perfect. But perfect it is not. Not remotely so.
And cheap Topping DACs sound great because they measure that way.
Oh, tens of thousands of your fellow audiophiles disagree with you. We all use them and enjoy the incredible transparency they bring to our music enjoyment.
And as you acknowledge, the are available at ridiculously low cost compared to what high-end companies charge for their DACs that are often distortion and noise factories.
@amir_asrAmazing how @j_livingstonpoints out a thread you created to promote products you sell and are a dealer for, but this is not a way to promote a product and how does it increase the science of your website. You are full of it.
@soundfield you folded quickly. I thought you were standing up to Amir?
Amir can use this thread to promote his bs all he wants, but I think the true believers see two sides to this. Can't wait to see 1,000 posts.
And what is one brand Amir’s company - Madrona Digital - sells? You guessed it! Revel products
I post that since membership has interest in the line and wants to know about the discount. There was zero call to action to come buy anything from Madrona whose business is anything but selling retail ( we have no showroom, no stock, nothing). I was also clear that people need to buy from their local dealers:
I know they will definitely order them for me and maybe even with less overhead give me a good deal. But I like looking/listening to things in person before I buy.
I hope anyone who does that, proceeds and buys it from the same dealer. It would be quite improper to then go and buy it discounted online or whatever.
Occasionally someone contacts me to get Revel speakers for them at a discount. Half the time they go and get it from someone else after that which is fine with me. I provide this option for people but at no time advertise it or promote it on the forum. If I really wanted to sell something, I would have put a link on top saying come here to buy this and that. But you see none of that whatsoever.
These arguments have no legs anyway. The last thing I want to do is to be an audio salesman. So I suggest not projecting. I am not you. I am not motivated by a few dollars like this as to put in doubt the ethics of what I do.
@mapman : what is Amir selling in Audiogon? I fail to see any Amir’s items for sale on his profile. Zero items sold either. Do you care to elaborate on your statement ?
Audiogon is a business that makes money by enabling sales.
Please explain to me: how does Audiogon make money out of this? Other from deflection of Audiogon users to ASR ( Amir’s own website Amir Science Review). Are you implying Amir is paying Audiogon (under the table) to post here promoting his site?
The Null Tester was invented a long time ago by Ethan Winer. Not you.
What? Null testers were "invented" before Ethan and I were born! Neither he, nor I have remotely said about inventing one. Ethan built a hardware null tester to show cables don't make an audible difference which I promoted on ASR as it was very good work.
My test relies on an incredible software tool built by member pkane on ASR called Deltawave. It works in digital domain so doesn't have noise or adjustment issues that Ethan's hardware null tester has. For this reason, it can show a far more perfect null.
But yes, both tests show that high-end cables don't make an audible difference.
@amir_asr between this and the 5128 discussion you must be drinking coffee and wearing a diaper.
You really can't take any criticism. You are spending so much time on this. And yes that post about only revel products does call your ethics into question.
Show me where you promote other products you don't rep. Also you never answered why Erin's video for speakers was taken down but other top videos were not.
Are you saying Ethan’s Null Tester device was flawed?
No. Just hard for average audiophile to understand. For anyone with understanding of what it did, it was great. But those were not the people who needed convincing....
For USB-A to -B I recommend Amazon Basics. They are cheap but flexible and have been ultra reliable. I am able to get state of the art measurements using them.
For RCA cables, I also like the 6 foot Amazon cable as a bargain choice. But there are many others such as WBC. I avoid the super generic ones as the connectors are so thin that the get loose after a bit.
For power cables, I use what comes with my gear. I do have a $99 Audioquest one that I have started to use recently because it is flexible and has a lower resistance than some of the thin AC cords. It hasn't made any difference in any measurement (or sound) but I have it so I use it.
For XLR cables, I use Mogami Gold. They are a bit pricey but incredibly reliable. I have bought generic stuff and while they have identical performance, after a few plug/unplug, their solder connections often break.
For speaker cables, I use whatever. For testing though, I like a flexible one so use high-strand count silicone cables. These things are superb in how flexible they are (even when cold) and their strands are wonderful to work with whether you crimp or solder. They are relatively expensive though so I don't bother to use them for long runs of speaker cables.
S/PDIF cables can make a measurable difference due to impedance mismatches but nothing remotely close to audible. It is best to get an impedance matched one if you just want that comfort.
For optical cable, I think the one I have I bought years ago from Monster (?).
HDMI cables cables can be tricky at higher speeds (>4K). Try to keep them as short as possible. But for audio, they make no difference.
BTW, I have a few high-end cables from Transparent, Monster, etc. which I don't use.
Care to elaborate: what is the “average audiophile”?
In this case someone without engineering background to understand why Ethan has to turn a pot every time he changes cables on his null tester. Or why there is residual noise "if there is no difference." Do you fall in this category?
In this case someone without engineering background to understand why Ethan has to turn a pot every time he changes cables on his null tester. Or why there is residual noise "if there is no difference." Do you fall in this category?
Good point! I will point this out to the boss. If he is still alive and kicking ass. No worries. He has a good disciple to fight the good fight for 20+ years. Long and healthy life to you
Believe it or not, I read your “review” of the Iconoclast cables, and the subsequent exchange of you with Galen. Which I am certain you cut him off. No fuss, your site your rules.
I more than welcome manufacturers to comment. You are out of line anyway as Galen never joined the forum to be cut off. He emailed me his response and I post it verbatim in the review thread. There was nothing else from him to post. Go and ask him and then make claims like this.
@amir_asr : On cables. Thank you for answering my question. Case closed. People can figure out for themselves
My pleasure. And many have... sold their fancy cables, switched to generic and happier for it. More money for music and other good things in life. You are really underestimating the difference we have made in the mindset of audiophiles with these comprehensive reviews of such tweaks. Folks are learning and it is accelerating, knock on wood.
Galen was extremely nice to you. I am not that nice. I would just ignore you if I were him. Your target audience is not Galen’s market anyways. But he was still nice to you.
Edit: As I said earlier, I don’t begrudge anyone making money as long as they are honest with their audience (or in Amir’s case, honest with themselves). Amir will say he makes a comment on all his reviews that his company sells Revel and that’s all the disclaimer he needs. I agree. But he chastises every single other reviewer who does essentially the same (i.e., advertising, YouTube monetization, affiliate links which are labeled clearly, etc).
This is wrong on multiple fronts:
1. I don't chastise youtubers for making money. I am an avid viewer of youtube product reviews which without exception are monetized multiple ways as you state.
2. I never put any link or other information for people to buy any product from me or my company. I don't even say what my company does unless asked.
3. Every review immediately starts with the source of the product: member loan, my own purchase or company. Almost no other audio reviewer I know does this.
4. ASR has incredible potential for monetization given our massive traffic and number of products I review. But I will not go there. I don't need the money and certainly don't need to have it cloud the transparency of the reviews.
A couple of days ago a company offered me money to get their gear tested sooner and I told them NO!
5. As a policy and core principle, we will NOT allow our people to try to monetize our traffic/membership for their own interest. This is a universal rule that is heavily enforced by other forums. We are actually more lenient to a fault here. Go ahead and spam this forum with sponsored links and see how long you last.
Bottom line, you are completely out of line with your comparison.
Edit: As I said earlier, I don’t begrudge anyone making money as long as they are honest with their audience (or in Amir’s case, honest with themselves). Amir will say he makes a comment on all his reviews that his company sells Revel and that’s all the disclaimer he needs. I agree. But he chastises every single other reviewer who does essentially the same (i.e., advertising, YouTube monetization, affiliate links which are labeled clearly, etc).
This is wrong on multiple fronts:
1. I don't chastise youtubers for making money. I am an avid viewer of youtube product reviews which without exception are monetized multiple ways as you state.
2. I never put any link or other information for people to buy any product from me or my company. I don't even say what my company does unless asked.
3. Every review immediately starts with the source of the product: member loan, my own purchase or company. Almost no other audio reviewer I know does this.
4. ASR has incredible potential for monetization given our massive traffic and number of products I review. But I will not go there. I don't need the money and certainly don't need to have it cloud the transparency of the reviews.
A couple of days ago a company offered me money to get their gear tested sooner and I told them NO!
5. As a policy and core principle, we will NOT allow our people to try to monetize our traffic/membership for their own interest. This is a universal rule that is heavily enforced by other forums. We are actually more lenient to a fault here. Go ahead and spam this forum with sponsored links and see how long you last.
Bottom line, you are completely out of line with your comparison.
given our massive traffic and number of products I review.
So why do you spend practically your entire valuable time posting here? Instead of your own site which you own in full with practically saint like features 🤦♂️
‘Help me understand what’s happening on this thread…
A couple of days ago a company offered me money to get their gear tested sooner and I told them NO!
You are so nice. Like I said, a saint 🥰
Go ahead and spam this forum with sponsored links and see how long you last.
What do you mean? You have lasted here way too long with your propaganda, promoting your own site. Nobody is kicking you out from promoting another sales site (albeit disguised as “science”)
@amir_asr How much money do you make from donations to your site or donations you request on every review you post? Interesting you leave that out. You won’t answer because you don’t monetize anything and you don’t need money living in a multimillion dollar waterfront home.
Amir, I don't care how you make your money. I for one do think you do it for the intellectual challenge and a sense of being honest and logical. For good, not evil. :)
That being said...
This is a highly specialized speaker that has poor general purpose. People fall in love with its spatial qualities due to dipole design and tall image it provides. So not surprised you speak as if it is perfect. But perfect it is not. Not remotely so.
I never said the LRS was perfect. It IS a perfect example of where measurements fail.
And again, you measured the speakers first and THEN listened?
Putting the cart before the horse and insuring your measurement philosophy bias.
So not only are measurements next to useless to determine how things sound but going by your biased limited view of a great speaker based on measurements could actually turn curious audiophiles away from a wonderful SOUNDING speaker.
So in fact, rather than doing a service here, you are doing a disservice.
And it’s amazing how I spoke all this truth without any impressive looking charts.
And now I’m left wondering even about cables........the one simple? thing that might make sense.
And again, you measured the speakers first and THEN listened?
Putting the cart before the horse and insuring your measurement philosophy bias.
Nope. I don't trust any subjective review that is not grounded on measurements. They would be expressing random views in totally uncontrolled situation. I don't see my role as being yet another subjective reviewer to give you such an opinion. You can get that from myriad of other sources.
I listen for a specific purpose: to verify what measurements show as far as audibility. Measurements may show a dip between 1 to 3 kHz. How audible is that? I put in a reverse filter to compensate. Then I perform AB tests, blind if needed and assess that. Many times I find that measurements are correct in that regard. That the sound does get better. Such was the case with Magnepan LRS. Sometimes the correction doesn't help in which case I remark that in the review and search for explanation.
A bonus outcome of the above is that you get a set of filters anyone can apply to the same speaker. When doing so they can opine if the sound got better, or not. This feedback is frequently shared and in many cases it is positive. Indeed many people send me speakers/headphones just so that I create such a filter for it!
The above has worked so effectively that I now give dual review ratings for headphones: one as is and one with EQ correction:
Rating on the left says "fair." Rating on the right says "superb." Here are the listening test results post measurement:
Audeze LCD-X Headphone Listening Tests and Equalization
The sound out of box is quite boring and bland. So equalization tool came right out:
I used dual filters to try to better shape the low frequency boost as it has a complex shape. I then used another pair to fill in the hole in 3 to 5 kHz. The final filter in yellow at 5.8 kHz is just a "stopper." I use a bit of negative gain to make sure there is no boost at that point and farther in frequency response. It helped keep the headphone from sounding too bright post EQ.
Once there, these headphones were a delight to listen to. The sound is now light and airy with really good spatial qualities. Dynamic ability is excellent letting you listen at any level with no hint of distortion. The sound is so nice that a day later, I am listening to them as I type this review.
[...]
I am happy to strongly recommend the Audeze LCD-X 2021 revision with equalization. Without it, it is a pass for me.
See how methodical the process is? It is not just a word salad with a bunch of unrelated talk about this and that album I used to listen with.
I explain all of this in one of my videos and proof points of why the type of subjective reviewing you ask for generates totally unreliable results:
Your target audience is not Galen’s market anyways.
What is that target? The ones that don't need any evidence from the manufacturer that said cable costing 10X more makes a difference in sound coming out of your gear?
@amir_asrbetween this and the 5128 conversation on ASR you sound like an elitest out of touch petulant child. Now I see what @soundfieldis saying. If you have family or hobbies outside of this there is no way you’re tending to it. You seem consumed and unhappy with the narrative. You can’t play god here and it’s driving you mad. Seriously take a walk. Get a massage. You are only bound to get more curmudgeonly from here.
Maggies have their fans and their detractors. One thing about them is they are always a good option for the price asked, IMO. The LRS are meant to be their entry level model, and as such they are priced accordingly. I doubt one could find a speaker at the same price level that would hands down beat them across the board. Do some things better, sure, but not everything. Plus, it should be pretty obvious to anyone who has been in this hobby for any length of time at all, that they will not reproduce bass well. Amir states this is a fault of the speaker, well sure it is, but there are options to address the issue..called sub woofers. Additionally, I have noticed that whenever JA measures a large floor standing model, like a panel or other design, he always mentions that this is a factor in his results....I would suspect this is something that Amir might want to remember.
Additionally, I have noticed that whenever JA measures a large floor standing model, like a panel or other design, he always mentions that this is a factor in his results....I would suspect this is something that Amir might want to remember.
I don’t need to because my measurement system (Klippel NFS) doesn’t care. JA is performing manual measurements of speakers outside so size of the speaker is a major barrier for him.
Note that JA’s measurement method exaggerates bass response due to use of near-field measurements (it assumes the baffle is infinitely wide which obviously it is not). If you look, he always shows a hump there. Here is the Perlisten S7t measruement:
See that hump between 80 and 300 Hz? It is a measurement error (some or all of it). Its exact frequency and shape varies with speaker size/design.
Here is the Wilson Sasha W/P:
See the hump around 80 Hz?
Monitor Audio:
JA is fully aware of it but doesn’t apply a correction leaving you guessing as to what the response really is. Fortunately sometimes he say this in the review.
He badly needs the same system I have but he is not going to get the funding from his subjectivist heavy owners and editors.
FYI I have measured 300 speakers now and my work gets scrutinized by manufactures down to a dB at times! So please be careful in making accusations of lack of knowledge on my part. It is unkind and wrong.
JA is fully aware of it but doesn’t apply a correction leaving you guessing as to what the response really is. Fortunately sometimes he say this in the review.
Petty BS, JA makes clear its a nearfield response and that's exactly what is shown. Your measurements show the anechoic response with baffle diffraction loss aka step. BOTH methods show only approximate output depth extension, NEITHER can predict the actual in room LF response, which will dominate.
He badly needs the same system I have but he is not going to get the funding from his subjectivist heavy owners and editors.
More petty egomania BS. JA needs a NFS as much as Kevin Voecks did when he designed your Salon 2s. Or JJ when he made his current speakers at Immersion. Folks with far more knowledge about loudspeaker design/measurements than you have, managed just fine without NFS's. That egomania thing again.
More petty egomania BS. JA needs a NFS as much as Kevin Voecks did when he designed your Salon 2s.
Would that be because Kevin had access to world class anechoic chambers?
Three-dimensional modeling, 4-pi anechoic chambers, and laser inteferometry were but a few of the industrial marvels revealed in early March to a group of Stereophile and Stereophile Guide to Home Theater scribes. ... Stereophile in 2000
@yodogyodog, "All of you who are hating, it is clear he is doing something right if you guys are hating."
I know for a fact for every hater on here actually typing some lame no body cares type of stuff towards Amir or ASR are outnumbered by 100:1 via the silent no name passerby’s.
Silent "no name" here that respectively disagrees with your declaration. Amir is a big boy and literally asked for it by dropping in here to post.It's his choice. I believe most audiophiles with at least a few years under their belts simply want reliable components that reproduce what they personally feel real music sounds like. So what if the measurements aren't pristine? I have nothing negative to say about Amir.I just don't believe an audiophile would reject a well made component that fit into their system and sounded spectacular because Amir gave it a thumbs down.
The big brains who ask me to stop talking disagreeing with the weak and unsustainable arguments of Amir about the Maggies and why he measured and how he measured , the big brains who answer Amir by ad hominem attack against him ( true or not i dont give a damn about ad hominem attacks in a deep conversation ) DID NOT ANSWERED HIM AT ALL ON THE CRUX OF THE MATTER AND FROM PSYCHO-ACOUSTIC and ARE UNABLE TO DO anything save hating in short posts😊... You like them enjoy them..
My posts are perhaps long and not well written but at least i argued about the essentials and Amir did not ANSWER well on that and he could not...
Any measures in audio answer questions in the context of some hearing theory... PERIOD...
Enjoy the empty arguing of the empty harassing brains... I do not...
They cannot read a two pages aerticles and understanding it...
They believe so idiots they are that my discussion putting Amir in a corner did bad service to audiophiles.. Their insults for sure do great and better services to audiophiles in their childish minds...
Not one of them is able to answer Amir save to say a childish non motivated answer OR A PERSONAL ATTACK ; we listen we dont measure THEY SAID... then why and how ? they cannot answer that save to say they will buy an upgrade... Consumerism idiocy replace arguments..
Amir is wrong on what he claim about listenings but at least he is polite...
i am fed up by idiots...Not by Amir... I can demonstrate why he is wrong... Idiots cannot..
«The mathematical demonstration about why some people are stupid fail miserably🤓 »--Groucho Marx
«But the schematic depiction of stupidity motives succeeded greatly»--Chico Marx 😎
«Is not because the mathematical theory of stupidity dont work, but an ecological theory of stupidity work well ?---Harpo Marx 🧐
«You know what i means»--Yogi Berra
Enjoy, the 50 pages book is free and shortened here:
I can demonstrate how he is wrong. Again I go back to food. Namely donuts. Let’s say all donuts that are perceived as good follow a basic recipe and ratio of ingredients. This can be verified by a scientific test in a lab. One place sells donuts that don’t follow that tried and true recipe but everyone flocks to buy some. That to me is what audio is like. I actually believe a lot of what Amir is saying but you can’t test food without the eating and enjoyment. There will always be a subjective component to reviewing restaurants if we want to go with the food analogy.
Initially I liked Amir and found the website good. All of my interactions with him were pleasant. But now I see a lot more of his personality and how if he doesn’t agree with a line of discussion he shuts it down. Then people get mad and leave or he turns off the spigot of information because his feelings got hurt. Then he claims he doesn’t care when he does. Talk about subjective!
Then do it and we will see if Amir will be put in a corner by ARGUMENTS ..
let the donuts wait..
A demonstration as i did ask for ARGUMENTS, no ad hominem attacks even if the ad hominem attacks may be true THEY COUNT FOR NOTHING ... And to be successful the rational attack must be IMPOSSIBLE to be answered RATIONNAlly.. then Amir will be put in a corner... Case closed..
I did it by appealing to HEARING THEORIES...But idiots dont know how to read and ask me to stop and go away..
Would that be because Kevin had access to world class anechoic chambers?
Right, NOT an NFS. Ditto for Andrew Jones, etc,, etc, etc.
We all did fine before NFSs, every speaker designed before a few years ago and since. Including Amirs own Revel Salon 2s. NOT designed/measured with NFS.
@mahgistercalling everyone idiots isn’t helping get people to listen to your repeated long winded exclamations. You aren’t listening to why people are tuning you out.
I already explained with my donut analogy. You can look at and test food for composition all you want but taste will always be subjective. And tasting food is the whole reason it’s made. We don’t make donuts to watch them and study them.
@amir_asr wondering if there are products you like to listen to that didn’t measure well? Does what you actually enjoy listening to always correlate to good metrics?
BTW thanks for spending some time here. I know it can be a tough crowd sometimes. Your site is very impressive and indicates a lot of time and hard work spent trying to put some real parameters around products that people might actually be able to afford. I think that is a valuable service and wish more people did it. You seem to have a lot of dedication to what you do which is admirable. I suspect many truly interested in learning appreciate what you do. FBOFW. Nobody is perfect but striving for excellence is something that should be valued not put down.
BTW I also appreciate your focus on issues discussed. No personal attacks. That makes a world of difference in regards to adding value.
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