Did Amir Change Your Mind About Anything?

If one has no real life frame of reference as to the sound of 'live' musical instruments in a non-amplified setting, then just relying on measurements might not be a bad idea. 

@amir_asr As a former pro studio musician, I guess I do not fit the mold. LOL.

Nonetheless, as I stated before, if one has little experience with the sound of the ’real’ live instrument in an un-amplified setting, then I guess relying on someone else’s expectation of what the instrument sounds like, and therefore the measurements that are assigned to this sound, is the choice that is left. IMO, if something sounds good and measures poorly, then the measurement device is off, the same applies if something sounds bad to our ears and the measurements are great...then the measuring device is measuring the wrong thing.

Personally, I trust my ears above all else, regardless of what the measurements may or may not be showing me. Same goes for when i pick an instrument to play, my ears ( and well, my hands also) are the final decider, regardless of other ’expert’ opinions as to the instrument quality ( or lack thereof).YMMV.

@jbhiller I agree with you. It occurred to me that the speaker that Amir used to listen to the little Luxman amp was entirely inappropriate as well. This reminds me of the poor review that Jason Victor Serinus wrote of the Jadis JA200mk2 amps for Stereophile, wherein he mismatched the amps with his virtually impossible to drive Wilson Alexia’s! Instead of blaming a mismatch of gear, which frankly was obvious to anyone with any experience in this hobby, he places blame on the amp/victim.

Ever since this review, I read JVS’s reviews with a grain of salt and suspect he really is somewhat unqualified to be in his position.

I am probably banned from ASR, not sure, but I’m banned from so many of these sites, I have lost count, lol! I actually consider it a badge of honor, because like most folk, I don’t always agree with the forum admins, and as such they pull the ‘holier than thou’ card and censor/ban anyone who has differing opinions, or goes against their little TOS. I was recently banned from the SH forum, as a mod( over there they have the temerity to consider themselves as ‘gort’s’) didn’t like a logical question I asked about selling some gear on their site, and then tried to make me beg his forgiveness to remain on the site;pathetic on a number of levels.

I think that measurements should be an important consideration, but in the right context. I am quite impressed by the measurements and explanations that JA gives to most of the Stereophile reviews. There have been some real eye openers in his measurement section that not only points to technical issues, but also, in some cases, to a general lack of quality in the piece under review. If one reads most of the reviews in that periodical, they are typically filled with hyperbole, and the reviewer hears nothing wrong at all. Yet, there have been several instances wherein JA has discovered problems that the potential consumer should be aware of. This is a valuable asset IMO. The problem I have with the 'less technically' able amateur who brings his measurements and concerns to the fore, either via his web portal or other means, is that these concerns have to be considered in regards to where they originated and the experience level ( along with the access to the appropriate testing equipment) that is evidenced. Most times the credentials really just are not there, but never questioned..

@amir_asr   I always post as DaveyF and that is how I was known on ASR. Nonetheless, I think your forum is a nice outlet for your views, and while I may agree with some (most?), I also know that there are too many folk there who are unable to get around the idea that measurements should be secondary to what one's ears are telling them. Whether you believe this or not, i am not sure.

Also, when I was on WBF, it became obvious ( albeit after you left) that there were a few 'guru's who wanted to use the forum as their personal soap box ( along with both of the owners) and that if anyone demurred, they were considered 'undesirable'! I did not leave after Myles came back; instead I was banned by one of the owners as he did not like my questioning of his favorite 'guru' and could not abide by the fact that someone might not like his 'sell to members' agenda! 

I understand that if one owns a forum, then one hopes that it will be a) potentially monetarily of value to the owner(s), b) a platform to get one's agenda and point of views across to a wider audience and c) attract like minded folk who will defend the owners value systems and beliefs.

Unfortunately, I am not one to go along with these trends....;0)

BTW, I was not specifically calling you out as an amateur, as i think you do have the experience you post, I just suspect that you are more into the 'science' than the music. There is nothing wrong with this in my books, it is just not where I come from. Reminds me of the time I was talking to one of the best known audio designers who confessed to me that he hated music, could not understand it and never listened to it, BUT enjoyed the technical electronic side of making amps, DAC's etc., It was an interesting conversation for me.

IME, every time a guitar is run through a pedal, there is loss of SQ. For this reason, i have had a few of my pedals modded so that the signal on by pass is as pure as possible, and yet the sound still suffers vs. no pedal at all. Maybe it is the a'phile in me, but i also carefully pick the cables that I use on my guitar set up as well, one would be surprised at the difference in sound to be had there as well!! Could we measure these differences and come to a proper conclusion as to which are the one's that suck tone, I doubt it. 

@amir_asr There is another variable that I do question when it comes to measuring gear, and it is this...is this measuring gear not somehow calibrated to someone’s hearing and expectation of what sounds to them...correct? If we believe ( and I have no idea if you do) that all appreciation of SQ is subjective; IOW one person’s appreciation of the sound of a stand up bass is another’s definition of a cello, then we have to come to the conclusion that what sounds great to one, is not necessarily the case to another.

A further reason I have no interest in WBF, is because the site turned into a horn speaker lover’s fest, and to me horn speakers are hopelessly colored and generally annoying to listen to. ( and I have listened to numerous models). To others, this design is the ultimate in SQ. Music, at least IMO, is something that appeals to a variety of tastes; RAP for instance has its fervent followers, and its haters. Everyone has their preferences, and so how do measurements account for this??

@amir_asr  I need to ask you a question...

Hypothetically, a speaker manufacturer somehow manages to develop a speaker that sounds to everyone ( including you).. exactly like the sound of real 'live' instruments in a non-amplified setting. This very speaker is what everyone believes is the best sound reproducer they have ever heard. The designer and the manufacturer take the steps you are supporting and do every measurement that you believe is appropriate, and these measurements show --- major distortions and errors in the design. Question for you is this, should the manufacturer go back to the drawing board and scrap this design, or should they produce this model for the market...but withhold the measurements as they know that folk will decry their design with knowledge of these results? (or disclose the measurements- and face the kind of scrutiny that will possibly result in most (many) folk dismissing this speaker before even having a chance to hear it!)  Your thoughts...

@mahgister +1

@amir_asr You have not considered in my example the fact that all who heard this speaker found it to be the best that they had ever heard. Is this possible in real life, I believe it is, as we have examples of gear that sounds great and yet measures poorly. (For example, a number of low powered single ended tube amps).

In my example, i would state that the measuring devices are simply measuring the wrong things, and not that the speaker is in fact inherently flawed. Your reply tells us this ( the opposite)-- you believe the measuring devices are in fact perfect, and that the audiences’ hearing is in fact flawed. This is why I think there are other members here who are taking you to task, they do not have the same absolute belief in the results that your measuring devices deliver to always correlate to the sound that gear produces.

One thing I do agree with you about--100%, and it is this, IF everyone hears a piece of gear that sounds poor to their ears, and also measures poorly, then it is a service to disclose this aspect to the a’phile community. Folks still need to hear the piece for themselves before making a purchase decision, but the fact that it performs poorly and yet is touted by the manufacturer/dealer can be possibly explained by its poor technical design. ( which is again why i believe that the measurements JA performs for Stereophile have definite value).

@amir_asr In my hypothesis, I was attempting to point out that IF a speaker was ever designed that could sound like what people (including you) believe to be as close as possible to the sound of ’real’ instruments in a ’live acoustic space’, and if this very same speaker measured poorly; people like yourself would point to the measurements and not believe in what their very own ears were telling them!

This is fundamentally where I believe we differ in our approach to music reproduction. You are seeking something that you believe looks right on a scope, or what the measurements say is what should be ’musical’, whereas I am looking for a product that can reproduce the closest to what my recollection of the ’real’ sounds like. As a former pro musician, I may have a bent/bias on what that is, but it also has allowed me to be exposed to numerous instruments and their sound in varying venues. If a product meets with my expectation of this sound, and still measures poorly, I have no concern on this. OTOH, if the product measures well and does not meet with my musical expectation, I am not interested. That simple.

@amir_asr You remind me a little of a very good friend of mine who is a highly respected mechanical engineer. My friend is 100% certain that all cables sound exactly the same, and that there is absolutely no reason to spend money on power cables that are anything beyond a certain gauge necessary to supply enough current. I have had him over to listen to my system and to tell me if he can hear differences when I swap in cables. My friend tells me that he can, but these things are all due to his poor memory of the sound before and after, plus he believes that only a ’blind’ test would allow him to state that there are no differences.

This is the thing, I have run into many folk who are not that much into music, and as such their interest level in this hobby is minimal, at best. They like other aspects of sound reproduction, maybe they enjoy the technical aspect ( like the well known gear designer I referenced in a prior post, who hated music), or maybe they like the visual aspect of the gear, but the actual reproduction of music and the ability of the gear to get us as close to possible to what we hear as ’live’ is not something they truly value. It is my belief that you are a techie first, second and foremost...and that music really is not that high on your list, you just like the science. Maybe i am wrong about you, but to me ( as a musician and an a’phile), your ASR forum is one of the last places I would want to be, because the folk that seem to post there are absolutely into the tech side-- and really not the music.

BTW, you state that if a speaker measures poorly and sounds great, then the measurements are in fact what we need to be looking for and as a result are good? I submit that the measuring devices are simply not able to measure the very thing that makes the speaker sound great to the listeners ears, instead measuring aspects of the sound that do not correlate with what we hear. This is something that I know you will not accept as a possibility.

It means that objectivists pretending that human sound perceived qualities may be only  illusions,   "good" or pleasant" as subjective qualities  being subjective experience are then considered "inexistant impressions... The business to please human ears is for them a fraud... All there is to say about "qualities" is reducible after many  blind test ELIMINATED all  false pretenses to a mere set of LINEAR measures.... And these linear measures are established  as the only standard for creating a good audio design even if any electronic circuits subjected to music bursts into it ,  instead of sine waves, can produce non predictable audible  results...As Van Maanen argue in this article

It would seem that Amir is in fact a perfect example of the type of hobbyist that you describe here. A pure objectivist, who simply will not trust his ears regardless of what they are telling him, relying instead on what his vaunted measurements are showing. 

I guess i hit a nerve when I posted above that I believe he is not that much into music, but a techie first. @amir_asr , it is ok to be this way, I did not say there is anything wrong in this. 

Let's leave it at this, so that we both are not tempted to throw out ad hominem's, you enjoy a different aspect of this hobby than i do, but it's all good. IOW, we agree to disagree.

Amir seems to like to argue for the sake of arguing. I noticed that he conveniently fails to highlight in his example the words…’However, I couldn't escape the feeling that the amplifier's tonal balance was on the lean, cool side.’

instead of believing what I posted about Halcro’s, I suggest Amir buy a set of their amps, he will marvel at their spec’s, and he will probably enjoy their sound. Plus, he can get a very good price on them…I wonder why? LOL.

Amir keeps on posting that graph on trained vs. untrained listeners. What is a trained listener...someone who has passed the Harmon test, and who now believes he/she can tell what a musical sound sounds like, better than the ’unwashed’ masses. WOW!! The temerity of this guy is something to behold! One of the reasons that I really could not stand dealing with his ilk on the forum that he started...WBF. Another complete joke.

This thread, like many others, seems to boil down to the ’subjective’ vs. ’objective’ arguments, and which are better?

IOW, nothing new here.

@othercrazycanuck You say that you bought all kinds of gear based on professional reviews and recommendations. Did you not consider listening to the gear first for yourself, before a purchase? IME, to spend $$ on any gear before first having the chance to listen is really the ONLY way to know if the piece under consideration fits into your listening biases! ( and we all have listening biases, which is why i fall into the subjective camp). Perhaps being in an area/locale that is removed from the ability to actually source these pieces for yourself, would lead to acquisitions based on someone else’s reviews or recommendations, but I think then relying on purely measurements posted by anyone would also lead to major disappointment.

@othercrazycanuck  So I understand your prior post, you say you did listen to gear before you bought it, presumably you liked what you heard, then you bought it. After some amount of time, you began to dislike what you bought, is this the case?

Seems like you may have also been swayed by the reviews and recommendations as well. You want us to believe that what you heard initially that pleased you, somehow changed after you took the piece home. This you attribute to your brain being fooled initially by..what?? 

I do know of many folk in this hobby, who actually are never satisfied with what they acquire to reproduce their music...they keep the piece for a short time, and then sell it on- always on the 'upgrade' trail. Not only is this a vey costly endeavor, but also I believe one that is sure to deliver long term dissatisfaction with the hobby. 

Personally, I buy gear that works for my ear, and IF something comes along in the future that is 'very significantly' better to my ears, I will entertain the upgrade, but I am not churning and burning gear...like many.

@mahgister First you state this:I beg your pardon but all my posts which are a rational discussion with Amir were not about subjectivits and objectivists, which is a MEANINGLESS debate let to itself most of the times;

Then you say this:But on this thread it is not at all what all is about... Here it is about objectivist versus subjectivist...

Sometimes it pays to remember what you previously post in reply to other members--IMHO.

Maggies have their fans and their detractors. One thing about them is they are always a good option for the price asked, IMO. The LRS are meant to be their entry level model, and as such they are priced accordingly. I doubt one could find a speaker at the same price level that would hands down beat them across the board. Do some things better, sure, but not everything. Plus, it should be pretty obvious to anyone who has been in this hobby for any length of time at all, that they will not reproduce bass well. Amir states this is a fault of the speaker, well sure it is, but there are options to address the issue..called sub woofers. Additionally, I have noticed that whenever JA measures a large floor standing model, like a panel or other design, he always mentions that this is a factor in his results....I would suspect this is something that Amir might want to remember.

@amir_asr   You have said that you have been insulted here by myself and others, yet you have the temerity to post what you just did about the experience level of all audiophiles. You put all of the group into one basket, that of being clumsy and ignorant consumers..and therefore easy marks. Not ok in my books.

Believe or not, there are folk here who have extensive experience and are not just shopping with their eyes and attracted to the highest price anything.

@nevada_matt   +1000

Years back, when Halcro first came to market, one of their claims to fame was that they had amps that were exhibiting such amazing measurements that they were ground breaking. No other manufacturer could deliver a product with the type of measurements that these amps delivered. Problem was that as soon as any reviewer with half a decent ear listened to them, they were pretty much dismissed as not good sounding at all!( even though JA and others did measure them and were astounded by what they found, which conformed to Halcro's marketing). This ultimately hurt their sales, but i suspect they did sell a few to the ’objectivists’ out there....who then promptly tried to unload them onto the secondary market...with minimal success.

I wonder if all of the Halcro adherents would easily pick out their favorite amp in a ’blind test’...or whether they would all opt for a poor measuring single ended tube amp, and question whey their measurements were deceiving them??

Listening test says hey...these speakers sound what we feel is as close to the real as we have ever heard; measurements say they sound like mud with a dollop of distortion on top...who here is a buyer?? ....;0)

@kevn +1. Excellent post. 

Friend of mine recently bought a Benchmark AHB2. He was basically sold on the spec’s and then to some extent- the reviews/price. To say that once he bought it home that he was disappointed, would be an understatement. Luckily, he was able to sell it on and lost little on the transaction.

@amir_asr I have never said that price (high or low) alone justifies a product...never. I have also never stated that measurements should not have an important part in the design process, or in the ability of the consumer to consider a product. BUT, i do not believe that measurements are the B all, and end all, of the decision making process; they are a data point (pun) and to me..that is all. Listening to a piece of gear in my room and my system is the deciding factor. I would state that if a piece under consideration measures well and sounds good, that is a good sign, but if it measures well and sounds marginal, it is no longer in consideration. Do I need to listen blind and with perfect AB comparisons etc., heck no, i trust my ears- and more importantly, what I am attempting to achieve with the sound that i get in my listening environment...and that is all. YMMV.

Was not familiar with this fellow until just now.  I will only say as a musician and engineer that it's silly for someone who is not a highly experienced recording engineer, highly experienced musician, or a respected music maker in any legit capacity to claim definitive hearing abilities.  And if he is claiming that balanced audio interconnects are all basically the same sounding things, nothing past that is of value.

Sensitivity and repetitive practice are key to build our listening skill.  AB comparisons at times are needed, yet it's always with the intent of learning how to trust our evolving listening skill.  Frame of Reference is key.  If our frame of reference is objectivist measurements, we've missed the point of music making and music listening completely.  Music is not a science project.  Faulty premise. 
 

Measuring one thing in a chain of things as a way to judge it is good for those who have not learned to trust, or who are afraid to learn to trust themselves. 

This is exactly the point that Amir seems to be missing. Music is an art form. The reproduction of music is a combination of art and science. IMO, the art aspect is at least as important as the science, which I think Amir completely dismisses. 

Back to the cable thing, is this gentleman saying that the entire cable industry is without musical merit?  If so, he's literally deaf, or has a terribly low quality playback system/room

Absolutely correct. +1

@amir_asr Thank you for posting your system photo. For someone so into the science of audio, I am very surprised that you have seemingly given no consideration to room acoustics! There are a number of great room acoustic products/treatments that i am certain would do marvels for your SQ in your room. You may want to try some of them, although I admit, they are all passive, and as such, pretty hard to measure! Your ears would be in for a treat though....if you would allow yourself to believe in them.

@amir_asr You may notice that I did NOT call your system a ’lousy audio system’...I wonder why?? I could have stated that having a big screen TV between the speakers and having your gear placed on your auntie’s dining room side board cabinet is not exactly anything but...laughable! But, for some reason i did not say that before, however since you want to play that card....;0)

I’m done on this thread, there really is nothing here anymore, and I don’t want to debate with Amir about my hearing acuity, his hearing acuity, my system quality or anything else that he thinks can be used to support his never ending quest for ’superiority’.

BTW, Amir, do you really think as an ex-pro musician and music teacher, plus being in the a’phile hobby for over forty years( dates me), that I cannot set up a couple of subwoofers in my system? Instead, i need to have an artificial tool to aid me...get a clue.