Determining current flow to install "audiophile" fuses.
Yes you are correct some interconnects can be directional, ones that have +&- conductors with a shield, that’s only connected at one end, that end should be at poweramp. But fuses are not shielded. And I still ask you or anyone else to post any manufacturers ad/doc that SAYS they are directional. "It’s all VOODOO" that you are promoting. Cheers George |
Al, thanks for your astute arguments, in fact HiFi Tuning agrees with you that the differences are quite small and they state that the small differences do not seem to explain the (large) differences in sound between the two directions. By the way, HiFi Tuning is not the only aftermarket fuse co. to mark their fuses with arrows so it's not as if HiFi tuning is the only one company claiming directionality of fuses. So, you cannot actually win the argument by attacking HiFi Tuning. Be that as it may, I feel it’s only fair and relevant to point out that audio interconnects - and here I’m referring to unshielded ICs so as not to confuse anyone - are directional.... and easily demonstrated to be directional. Just like fuses, it’s how the wire of the conductor is manufactured that determines it’s sonic directionality. That directionality (of the metal conductor) is precisely why many high end audio cable manufacturers provide ARROWS on their cables to indicate the direction that current is flowing between components. It doesn’t take much of a lead of faith, except perhaps for died in the wool skeptics, to see that ALL wire is directional. geoff kait |
Regarding the aforementioned directionality-related measurements provided by HiFi Tuning, I recently posted the following in the ongoing Littelfuse thread: Regarding the measurements described in the HFT paper (which Nonoise was kind enough to link to earlier in this thread) which purport to support the notion of fuse directionality:Regards, -- Al |
Georgelofi wrote, "And I still challenge any member to show a publicly seen doc that a manufacturers fuse is directional." ill take that challenge. The measurements of many different fuses in terms of directionality are provided on HiFi Tuning’s web site. Stock fuses, HiFi Tuning fuses, other fuses, they’re all directional. For both DC and AC circuits. Hel-loo! Furthermore the effects of cryogenic treatment are also measurable and contained in the HiFi Tuning data sheets. Isoclean fuses also come with a directional arrow. geoff kait |
I'm not debating after market fuses, power cords or anything if they are used as such and are to the standards. What I queried was that you had to "ask" the manufacturer, and that it was not stated in any doc or on their website about the fuses being directional, as this could be liable. And I still challenge any member to show a publicly seen doc that a manufacturers fuse is directional. Cheers George |
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You had to ask.yes to save time. I'll eventually find a prefer direction if it makes a difference in a component. As they would never put it in writing, as then that could very well be liable. After market fuses cover a wide range of products so totally understandable. Some owner manuals warn against after market power cords too, I've been using after market fuses forever and can hear fuse direction in some components. I'm not interested in a debate ... over and out! |
nonoise2,132 posts04-12-2016 7:00pmI have no doubt about boutique fuses being better than stock simply from my own experience. What I never got my head around was directionality. I really didn't want to participate in this thread but it occurred to me that I had to replace more than a few fuses in my Marantz Reference components (about 6 or 7) and the odds that I put them in correctly, all oriented in the right manner, the first time around, are nigh well near impossible.I learned my lesson and always ask designers for the correct direction. Once a new fuse sounded better installed in wrong direction. System sounds good but seems out of phase. Friends notice the same and new fuse was never brought up or crossed my mind . Then corresponded with several owners of the same component and they all heard same with fuse in wrong direction. I reversed direction, still sounds tight but after more hours, it opened up and sounded right again. This wasn't the case in all components but usually with higher quality components. |
I do hope jsbach will give a sonic report on how his new fuses sound and if he heard a difference in the direction they are installed. I personally enjoy evaluating and trying new products. I do not hesitate to return them if they do not improve my system's sound. I also give the seller my observations on the changes I noticed. I have found most of the seller's to appreciate the feedback. Maybe Australian audiophiles are more insecure than audiophiles raised in Texas. There is always someone in line at the return counter at the Walmarts in Texas! David Pritchard |
I have no doubt about boutique fuses being better than stock simply from my own experience. What I never got my head around was directionality. I really didn't want to participate in this thread but it occurred to me that I had to replace more than a few fuses in my Marantz Reference components (about 6 or 7) and the odds that I put them in correctly, all oriented in the right manner, the first time around, are nigh well near impossible. Back then directionality was not as hot topic as it is now. I just made sure they were all facing the same direction using whatever it was that was inscribed on the casing. The sound I have right now is wonderful and though tempting at times (due to threads like this) I'd never tamper with them again. All the best, Nonoise |
Stop being engineers, real scientists would be finding out why there is a direction. It’s these engineers and scientists that use all the laws of electronics to design every piece of equipment in your system, and if by some chance you have a piece of equipment that is not designed this way, I strongly suggest you throw it in the garbage bin. I ask anyone to quote JUST ONE engineer, scientist or audio designer of any note (that is not aligned to making dollars from the gullible) that fuses are directional. Cheers George |
When smart people seemingly speak before thinking there is often some agenda at play. Stop being engineers, real scientists would be finding out why there is a direction. Well Geoff is supposedly a theoretical physicist and gave an explanation until someone comes up with something better. There is supposedly this thing called math involved that can be used to communicate how theory works to the engineers that will actually make something useful. Like Einstein did to communicate his theories to those who eventually ended up making the bomb. Theoretical physics sounds cool but not an excuse to just make things up and sell them as real or meaningful. I’ll just put my trust in the good EEs current understanding especially having already wasted time trying to hear a difference. Meanwhile its the engineers that take the best accepted "theories" and actually make things that work. So just take that for what’s it’s worth all. Like Atmasphere said (paraphrasing) "no good engineering without good science to support it". |
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Stop being engineers, real scientists would be finding out why there is a direction".
No dude, there's no science at all -- math is savvy and sufficient enough to conclude and judge. Forget the math, just use trivial elementary school arithmetic -- of course if you're savvy enough to do that. Adding/Subtracting 5-digit arbitrary numbers without using calculator AND/OR paper-pen trains memory and logic. |
The nonsense that it is AC current going through them is obviously wrong.tbg, are you suggesting that fuses don't have AC current going through them? Just a FWIW for you: real engineers have to by definition also be scientists. If we abandoned the scientific principle it would be impossible to design and build anything. |
I don't think there is any fuse that doesn't have a direction that is best. Even when Syn. Res. zapped their fuses both directions on direction always sounded best. Why if there are real scientist here can they not explain why. The nonsense that it is AC current going through them is obviously wrong. Stop being engineers, real scientists would be finding out why there is a direction. If you don't bother, I will not be surprised, but I really don't care. It is everyone loss if you don't switch your main fuse on your preamp and listen to it both ways. Hi-Fi Tuning used to claim no directional difference, but I tried 10 of them and they were all the same direction. The same with the original SR fuses. Even cheap fuses are directional. I suspect the place to look is in how the fuses are made. |
Has everyone on here who is saying there is absolutely no sound difference between stock fuses and the boutiques ones actually tried them? Just because one has the means to afford the best equipment in the world doesn't mean they can hear well; know many with gear more expensive than mine that can't hear for you know what. Just saying I'm hoping everyone has at least tried them; if you have and you didn't hear any difference then hopefully you didn't spend too much on your equipment because don't all solid state amps sound the same anyway? They don't so lets don't go there but many believe they do even if they measure the same on the bench right? That is possible to build two completely different amps, by two different manufactures that measure almost identical isn't it, but they should sound they same right? How can that be they could sound different? Bust out the Kool-Aid... Oh Yeah. Heard all the logic how it makes no sense how something so small with this and that material; yeah we all know what and how a fuse in constructed, can make any difference. So this same logic has to hold true for the same for resistors, diodes and etc that say Emerson uses is what the big boys use? Come on man; these components are so small how can they make a difference with the similar materials in them? I know they do make a difference and understand these components do cost much more and the boutique manufactures are using them and that is part of the cost difference between say nice NAD amp and a Pass. Sure much of it is circuit design but surely these small components have to make up part of the sound difference or why couldn't NAD build a much cheaper amp to crush any Pass for much less? Before I continue I do want to apologize for anyone using anything by Emerson in their main system and I'll be the first to say don't switch out the fuse because it will not make a difference there. I for one am using aftermarket fuses and do hear a difference. Being a percussionist I can hear the difference between different cymbal manufactures on the same weight and size of a similar cymbal because I have over the years trained myself to know what to listen for; nothing special here, just that many musicians learn how to listen and just like in the Audiophile world many musicians don't as well. Actually I'm more interested if the OP has dropped the fuses in the amp mentioned and what their ears tell them. For the record I do not work at Emerson, NAD or Pass or in anyway affiliated with them. Thought this thread was getting a little tight so hopefully someone had a little fun here. Happy listening... |
No, actually it can’t be expectation bias or warming up of the component, inadvertently scraping off the dirt or oxide from the fuse holder or even placebo effect. We’ve already been over that.Well actually it totally can be; just because 'We've already been over that' (which 'We' haven't by any means) does not make it so. Some more gullible types might be taken in by that though. Occam's Razor applies- the complex explanation being the one you often give; expectation bias or warmup- both being **much** simpler explanations. Otherwise simply must be ready for the sale on bridges in Brooklyn. Just in case there is any issue here- most of these fuses are simply gold-plated versions of exactly the same fuse that you can buy off the shelf. The element does not get treated- its the gold on the ends that gets added. So there is no mechanism to allow for directionality. |
"What you are most likely hearing is the warm-up of the unit after its been powered down in order to replace the fuse. I think you will find that this is repeatable, regardless of which direction the fuse is installed. This is an excellent example of expectation bias." No, actually it can’t be expectation bias or warming up of the component, inadvertently scraping off the dirt or oxide from the fuse holder or even placebo effect. We’ve already been over that. You can easily eliminate those possibilities through careful testing. It’s due to the non-symmetrical orientation of the crystals in the conductor. I can provide a paragraph describing the Backfire Effect if anyone is interested. No strings attached. Ironically the reverse expectation bias might actually explain why some people can’t hear directionality. |
Fuse directionality is not something exclusive to only high-end fuses. I found that even cheaper fuses have a preferred direction. One way to find out is to look at the cap ends with a magnifying glass. I found that the majority will have the power rating stamped on one end, and the other will usually have an assortment of symbols. Yes, I found the OEM fuses even sound better in one direction, but not the same as the high-end ones. I have the Hi-Fi Supreme fuses. Before plunging, I tried ceramic fuses of the same rating as the OEM. They sounded a bit smoother than the OEM. I simply diagrammed on a paper the direction using the cap's indicators. So far, its been consistent for each fuse. They key is, one direction will sound smoother in comparison.What you are most likely hearing is the warm-up of the unit after its been powered down in order to replace the fuse. I think you will find that this is repeatable, regardless of which direction the fuse is installed. This is an excellent example of expectation bias. @georgelofi , +1 |
TO: jsbach1685 I installed 4 synergistic research red fuses in my Odyssey Khartago extreme and the results were awesome. Each fuse cost about $90.00. This has been the most cost effective modification I have ever made without having to use my soldering iron. It is my intention to call Klaus and tell him to offer these fuses as on option on new units. He should also put them in demo units at shows so that everyone can hear the true potential of his amps. Synergistic research has recently started selling black fuses (with even better sound) for $120 each and I will be be upgrading to these black fuses soon. Have a look at "synergistic red fuse" in the Amp and Preamp forum. I have no connection with Synergistic research and the only reason I am making this post is that I am a fan of Odyssey power amps. Good luck |
Mapman wrote, "Well I guess if one is a theoretical physicist one can propose pretty much anything they want. After all it’s all, you know, theoretical. Some might even buy into the theory. Funny how these things work. Also so I feel slighted a bit in that I don’t expect others won’t hear something just because I didn’t yet some expect most all will because they and others think they do. All that despite the fact that even the most knowledgeable EEs on this sight have clearly expressed their views which normally get a lot of traction..." Actually the whole directionality thing is probably more of a physics issue than a EE issue, which is probably why we cannot seem to get any explanations from EEs. I have been involved with the atomic physics of crystals for eons. One need look no further than my Brillaint Pebbles, the first comprehensive application of mineral crystals to high end audio and I won’t get into the paper I presented in school at the national AIAA conference on the design of a low thrust rocket engine for interplanetary travel that employed metal crystals bombarded by high energy Xenon ions to develop a net thrust from atoms sputtered from the metal surface. Ergo, for the metal conductor of cables, you know, what with the crystal lattice strictest that get deformed when the wire is drawn through the final die, and of fuses, the directionality they exhibit is acually a physics issue more than a EE one. George’s latest input duly noted. I appreciate all the angst nevertheless, guys. Geoff Kait machina dynamica no goats no glory |
Well I guess if one is a theoretical physicist one can propose pretty much anything they want. After all it's all, you know, theoretical. Some might even buy into the theory. Funny how these things work. Also so I feel slighted a bit in that I don't expect others won't hear something just because I didn't yet some expect most all will because they and others think they do. All that despite the fact that even the most knowledgeable EEs on this sight have clearly expressed their views which normally get a lot of traction but cannot convince some that the benefits may not be as predictable as some think. I guess the 30 day guarantee makes it safe but really how many are going to bother to return something that at worse causes no harm? just saying. Too much hype with these fuses in any case IMHO. |
You really can't pose any argument or meaningful discussion with subjective opinion regarding magic fuses or any other technically questionable tweak…if somebody "feels" their hifi has an improved soundstage, instrument tonal quality, or any other improvement from a premium FUSE (!), it has to stand…among those who have had a suspicious relationship with SR fuses (seriously overblown prattle that should raise eyebrows implying a commercial connection with the manufacturer) the arguments regarding the cheapness of the product relative to other tweaks ("the BMW cost you 50 grand, why not spend $300 on valve stem caps?") is lame on it's surface. By asking potential buyers to spend hundreds or many hundreds of dollars on something costing 20 times what it should (relative to other, non precious fuses) since "you can return the item before 30 days," plays to the fact that most simply won't bother to return these things or will keep turning them around to test directionality or adding more break-in time because they really really want them to work. This desire to hear things that might not exist because you paid dearly for it, and ego driven desire to not be left out of some "extra sensitive hearing" club drive most audio silliness and distract from actually valid or perhaps useful information that keeps the hobby rolling along. |
Aolmrd1241 4-7-2016 9:46am EDTWhile it is true that in the case of an AC mains connection energy is being transferred essentially in just one direction, from the outlet to the component, a fuse in that path has no way of being aware of that direction. All it has knowledge of is the current flowing through it. It is not even aware of the voltage of the AC, unless it is blown or in the process of blowing. And that current flows to and fro, as you put it, alternating its direction every 8.33 milliseconds in the USA and other countries having 60 Hz AC, and every 10 ms in countries having 50 Hz AC. Also, upon careful reading it appears to me that the statement you referred to is an example of what is known as circular reasoning. Regards, -- Al |
Changing the fuse direction does changes the sound , be it the air, or tightness of the bass . It may be tinny in one direction , full in the other . Try both ways ….you’ll know which is correct . I use Padis ( Furutech) in my Wyred Dac 2, which Wyred uses in their upgrades, and AMR in my Dynaudio MC15s . I have tried the Padis in my Dyna’s , but they were too cold and revealing. The AMR had a fullness the Padis couldn’t give me . For me , it's the right mix of detail and warmth. Regardless of the non-believers, they do make a difference . Just trust your ears |
"Fuse directionality is not something exclusive to only high-end fuses. I found that even cheaper fuses have a preferred direction. One way to find out is to look at the cap ends with a magnifying glass. I found that the majority will have the power rating stamped on one end, and the other will usually have an assortment of symbols. Yes, I found the OEM fuses even sound better in one direction, but not the same as the high-end ones. I have the Hi-Fi Supreme fuses. Before plunging, I tried ceramic fuses of the same rating as the OEM. They sounded a bit smoother than the OEM. I simply diagrammed on a paper the direction using the cap's indicators. So far, its been consistent for each fuse. They key is, one direction will sound smoother in comparison." excellent, excellent... |
Would you guys stop hallucinating that your fuses make a difference. If you are worried about it, use a slow blow. Otherwise, temporarily use a larger use. It would conduct more current than either direction as the standard fuse. If you hear a difference with the larger fuse, simply get in touch with me and I will sell you the best, green magic markered fuses ever made, complete with a balsa inserter/puller that will not warp the filament by grabbing teh glass part too hard. . V |
Fuse directionality is not something exclusive to only high-end fuses. I found that even cheaper fuses have a preferred direction. One way to find out is to look at the cap ends with a magnifying glass. I found that the majority will have the power rating stamped on one end, and the other will usually have an assortment of symbols. Yes, I found the OEM fuses even sound better in one direction, but not the same as the high-end ones. I have the Hi-Fi Supreme fuses. Before plunging, I tried ceramic fuses of the same rating as the OEM. They sounded a bit smoother than the OEM. I simply diagrammed on a paper the direction using the cap's indicators. So far, its been consistent for each fuse. They key is, one direction will sound smoother in comparison. |
Exhibit A Excerpt from post on Steve Hoffman's website, circa 2004, "....but two good guys I respect and know are George Cardas and Bill Low of Audioquest. Here is what Bill Low says about directionality: "Directionality: All cables are directional, from hardware store electrical cable to the finest pure silver cables. All AudioQuest cables are marked for direction. With other cables it might be necessary to simply listen to the cables in one direction and then the other. The difference will be clear-in the correct direction the music is more relaxed, pleasant and believable. While cable directionality is not fully understood, it is clear that the molecular structure of drawn metal is not symmetrical, providing a physical explanation for the existence of directionality."" |
Of course the average knuckle dragger on the street doesn't care about much of anything related to high end audio. There's a lot of dismissive attitudes around, but that's not a good thing.It's clearly visible Geoff Kait Machina Dynamica , that you're part of brainwash equation to consider "the rest" of crowd, as I've mentioned before, idiots! No need to listen to RT -- just read your posts and everything I've said is self-evident and clear. You don't realize that most people like good sound beyond MP3 player or conventional car stereo -- even those that don't know jota about high-end wires, fuses, feet and other bunch of clap load. There's more than enough advertisement of high-end audio/video, but most of this stuff isn't affordable to average customer as it used to be. There's a large number of people that purchase and service their silver plate receivers because they almost all have schematics available and detailed user manuals AND sound GREAT no matter which direction the fuse is stuck overthere. |
Geoffkait posted very inane comments relative to Atmasphere's informative technical information regarding the very basic laws of physics that apply. "just ignore the signal that goes in the opposite direction" . However that's the usual comment from someone who simply wants to argue their point. Is it the pound of lead or the pound of feathers that weighs more? |
Mapman wrote, "Its probably a safe assumption that most people still do not care about fuse sound or wire direction. Including me for the most part." Of course the average knuckle dragger on the street doesn't care about much of anything related to high end audio. There's a lot of dismissive attitudes around, but that's not a good thing. Cheerios |
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The original monster cable, which came with arrows indicating the direction of current flow were actually unshielded cables. They had clear jackets so you could see the (unshielded) copper right through them. So you can’t use the excuse that the directionality is a shielding issue (only). Besides, many audiophile interconnects have had arrows on them for more than 20 years. They are unshielded cables, at least many if them are. This is not to say shielded designs need to be inserted in the right direction shielding wise, but unless the manufacturer was smart enough to maintain the directionality of the conductor it’s still going to be somewhat messed up. All wire is direction. Accept the inevitable. |
Right my understanding is the reason the Monster wires are directional as indicated is because of the shield implementation.
That's pretty much the only reason that I have read of.
My MIT wires have no indicators and I can't say if it matters or not there. Fuses are a different story. Most high end audio fuse makers seem to leave a lot to the end listener's imagination. |
I read somewhere that only the direction of the ac [in a fuse...or power cord for that matter] towards the business end of the component[what is heard] is of any value in directional break-in ,hence, the reason there is directionality in a fuse used in an ac circuit is because of the cycle going to... and not fro. For what its worth,it sounds plausible.There can be reasons why a cable has directionality (mostly having to do with how the shield is constructed; this has nothing to do with fuses). But this bit: "the reason there is directionality in a fuse used in an ac circuit is because of the cycle going to... and not fro." - is a false statement (and is false because AC does indeed go "to and fro", if it does not, its called 'DC'). Therefore its not plausible that a fuse can be directional, and anyone telling you otherwise is trying to sell something and is hoping you are gullible enough to not see the fraud. To understand the fraud that is happening here, you first have to understand that in an AC circuit, the voltage drop across the component has to be the same in both directions. Otherwise one of two things will happen, both governed by Ohm's Law: either the component will heat up (as in the case of an electrolytic capacitor when reverse biased by half of the AC current flow; this will cause it to heat up and explode) or rectification will occur (as in the case of a power rectifier, which can conduct in one direction but not the other- this BTW is how AC is converted to DC). So if a fuse is directional (entertaining that impossibility for a moment) that means that it will have a resistance value of x in one direction (some fraction of an Ohm) and in the other direction the resistance will be x plus something more. The idea is of course ridiculous, as if this were the case, the additional voltage drop in the higher impedance direction would cause the fuse to heat up with eventual failure. This is Ohm's Law we're dealing with here- its a simple formula and can't be violated without creating a new branch of physics. So if anyone tells you that fuse direction make a difference, either they are grossly misinformed or just outright lying. It really is that simple. |
Its probably a safe assumption that most people still do not care about fuse sound or wire direction. Including me for the most part. Of course some care more. May the force be with them. Now I must say I have some Monster Cables around still that do have arrows on them indicating which way to hook them up so I obligingly do since they took the time to say so even though I do not know why it matters. I also do that with MIT cables with network boxes that are clearly not the same on both ends. But if a respected maker claims a directional product but neglects to clearly instruct users about the recommended orientation then that product has little credibility with me at least. You took the time to make a "directional product" but neglected to provide clear instructions on proper setup? Give me a break. I’ll find another vendor that has better attention to details that supposedly matter. |
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It’s why many boutique cable manufacturers have been putting directional arrows on their cables for twenty five years. Hel-loo!" ...and 25 years ago no one gave a damn about direction on signal cables ...and 25 years ago no one gave a damn about 5 cm long fuse sound quality or "upgrading" fuses ...35 years ago we had detailed instruction manual given with detailed diagrams and schematics on each component we purchased. Now they all say "don't get in or you get killed". Evolution has reached its peak back than -- now it's indeed Devolution, degradation and retardation. Everything and everyone around you will say you're treated as idiot! The funny thing is that everyone likes it and feels happy about it thus motivating and promoting devolution. Maybe some day we'll become again Neanderthals. |
atmasphere... "Since AC has to go in both directions, it follows that directionality is impossible." I read somewhere that only the direction of the ac [in a fuse...or power cord for that matter] towards the business end of the component[what is heard] is of any value in directional break-in ,hence, the reason there is directionality in a fuse used in an ac circuit is because of the cycle going to... and not fro. For what its worth,it sounds plausible. |
Atmasphere wrote, "FWIW we have gotten good reports on some of the boutique fuses from our customers. No-one has ever asked about directionality, and all our fuse positions are AC circuits. Since AC has to go in both directions, it follows that directionality is impossible. In fact, if the fuse were in any way directional, it would heat up and fail almost instantly!" Just because you have gotten good reports from customers doesn't mean that directionality is not true. And because no one ever asked about directionality doesn’t mean it’s not true. A lot of folks are unaware of the issue. No one has said that the fuse will not work when its in the "wrong direction." That's a uh, Strawman Argument. Because many if not most aftermarket fuses incorporate a number of features such as vibration control, EMI/RFI rejection and perhaps others, directionality is NOT the only issue involved for boutique fuses. Whereas it generally is for stock fuses. Thus, aftermarket fuses inserted in the WRONG DIRECTION will usually sound BETTER than the stock fuse - even if the stock fuse happened to have been in the CORRECT position. A fuse in the wrong direction doesn’t instantly heat up and fail. Half of all ordinary stock fuses are in the wrong direction since their orientation is random. Nobody pays attention to directionality at the manufacturer side. Ooops, my bad. Ordinary stock fuses, which are also directional, you know, due to the orientation of the "grain" of the crystal structure of the metal conductor created by pulling the wire through the final die. They do not explode if they are in the "wrong" direction, since 50% of stock fuses ARE obviously in the WRONG direction. but the sound quality IS diminished. Cats like to be stroked in the direction of their fur not against it, and porcupines like to be stroked in the direction of their quills, not against it. Lol By the same token, reversing interconnects that were inserted randomly between components will improve the sound 50% of the time for the same reason. It’s a wire directionality issue. It’s why many boutique cable manufacturers have been putting directional arrows on their cables for twenty five years. Hel-loo! Atmasphere also wrote, "IOW the directionality thing is a myth." IOW the belief that the fuse is not directional is an old wives tale. cheers, Geoff Kait Machina Dynamica we do artificial atoms right |
