Chances are good any customers who know you doesn’t wish to irritate you by bringing up fuse directionality. ;-)This statement is false. Our customers are quite eager to supply feedback and we pay attention to it.
Determining current flow to install "audiophile" fuses.
There are 4 fuses in my Odyssey Stratos amp. I recently returned some AMR fuses because they rolled off the highs and lows a little too much for me. Mids were excellent though. Anyway, I'm getting ready to try the Hi-Fi Tuning Classic Gold fuses, as they are on clearance now for $10/ea. Are they any good? However, I have read that they are a directional fuse? Can anyone confirm this? If that is the case, does anyone know the current flow for the Odyssey Stratos? Or, does anyone know how figure out current flow by opening up the top and looking at the circuitry?
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I really wish you would try to keep up with the discussion, George. When a manufacturer marks it’s fuses with directional arrows it means they believe their fuses are uh, directional. When a manufacturer publishes detailed measurement data that shows differences in resistance depending on direction of the fuse it means the manufacturer believes fuses are directional. And not just fancy audiophile fuses; and not just fuses in DC applications. Every Yutz with ears knows that all fuses are directional. Wake up and smell the coffee! PS - It’s hard to see what your new avatar is. I’m guessing it’s supposed to be a loose cannon. Am I close? |
"Where is all this angst and hostility coming from? " Look in the mirror. But I’m sure its no mystery. Repeating the same thing over and over like a parrot no matter what tends to have that effect on people. We know Geofkait says all wires are directional and why already 10X over. Enough already. Your act is getting old and predictable. |
czarivey I know I’ve seen it, he really does stick pins in dolls. And GK you still haven’t posted links to documented fuse manufacturers poof of directionality of fuses. I ask once again please post the links! Cheers George |
When a manufacturer marks it’s fuses with directional arrows it means they believe their fuses are uh, directional. When a manufacturer publishes detailed measurement data that shows differences in resistance depending on direction of the fuse it means the manufacturer believes fuses are directional.Incorrect. They don't mark the fuse with arrows indicating its directionality, they mark it with a logo that is easily confused. This is done to buy into the myth that fuses are directional, and thus they sell more fuses. There is no directional data that exists, at least none that can be verified by independent test. @georgelofi , +1 |
Atmasphere wrote, "Incorrect. They don’t mark the fuse with arrows indicating its directionality, they mark it with a logo that is easily confused. This is done to buy into the myth that fuses are directional, and thus they sell more fuses. There is no directional data that exists, at least none that can be verified by independent test." I hate to speak before all the facts are in but it kind of appears that you are the only one confused by the symbol that looks pretty much like an arrow. What makes matters worse for your position is that the HiFi Tuning fuses actually sound considerably better when the arrow thingie is pointed in the right direction. At least that’s what people who have actually heard the HiFi Tuning fuses say. Furthermore Isoclean has actual, you know, arrows that should not be so darn confusing on their fuses. Have for twenty years. The test data sheets on the HiFi Tuning web site are actually from an independent testing facility. Hel-loo! As it turns out you have apparently bought into the old wives take that fuses are not directional. The more you try to convince someone who has his mind made up using logic and rational debate the more convinced he is that everyone else is wrong, trying to trick him or there’s some global conspiracy. Lol geoff kait |
And to add to this absurd sound difference of fuses and their direction detection.
GK post the links that collaborate your findings on direction v sound of fuses. Or take it all to your website, where just about everything is VOODOO! and this directional fuse stuff won’t feel out of place on it. And as far as your explanation of arrows, that you can’t verify with documented manufacturers proof. May I suggest that you need to investigate that the so called "arrow" is for inserting it the right way round where the sun don’t shine. http://image.shutterstock.com/z/stock-vector-pooping-emoticon-67254478.jpg Cheers George |
Geoffkait: "Where is all this angst and hostility coming from?" to which Mapman responded, "Look in the mirror." Mapman, I took your advice and looked in the mirror. However I did not see my reflection. What’s up with that? Apparently no thread is too "old" for you to over post. Nice stalking with you. Georgie, are you experiencing a full moon down under or something? |
How about if someone cares enough at this point to worry about the direction of their fuses just let them try it and live happily ever after whichever way it works out. That would be a lot more practical. Or just listen to Geoffkait and be miserable knowing 50% on average of teh stuff in your audio circuits are installed the wrong way. Happy listening.... |
Czarivey wrote, "I believe that OP was just joking and perhaps laughing his AO, but Machina Dynamica takes it VERY SERIOUSLY LOL! Rock on Geoff, Fly your thoughts free. Peace brother!" You believe the OP was joking? I see an English refresh course in your future. Keep an open mind but not so open your brain falls out. Things a little slow at Pizza Hut, hippy dude? |
Yep, I can read minds off written notes and off the verbal conversation. Often I take what’s meant instead of what’s said or written due to some degree of telepathy ability. P.S. Geoff, Never go to comedy club on the first row. I always do because I can laugh back and make others laughing. Would you like any English Refresh course by any chance? |
I hate to speak before all the facts are in but it kind of appears that you are the only one confused by the symbol that looks pretty much like an arrow. What makes matters worse for your position is that the HiFi Tuning fuses actually sound considerably better when the arrow thingie is pointed in the right direction. At least that’s what people who have actually heard the HiFi Tuning fuses say. Furthermore Isoclean has actual, you know, arrows that should not be so darn confusing on their fuses. Have for twenty years. The test data sheets on the HiFi Tuning web site are actually from an independent testing facility. Hel-loo! As it turns out you have apparently bought into the old wives take that fuses are not directional. Well, the facts **are** in. The symbol to which I refer is a stylized diode symbol (its not an arrow; that one was good for some laughs around here) bypassed by a capacitor. However it is really a stylization which is why I used the word 'logo'. Measurements of the fuse show no diode characteristics (and as Thom just pointed out as I did a couple of pages earlier, if it did have such effect, it would fail quite quickly in an AC application) nor any capacitive effects. Further, if there was a diode effect, in one direction it might not work at all. Disassembly of the fuse shows it to be constructed in a way similar if not identical to other commercially available fuses (a ceramic tube with a lightweight wire fuse element within; FWIW the wire appears to be damped by a lightweight insulation, presumably to limit or damp the motion that otherwise can be observed in many fuses when current is applied. Its likely that this insulation is the primary improvement, more important than the plated ends. These fuses were originally imported by a customer of ours, who sent samples to us. He never at any time indicated anything about them being directional. The directional aspect is clearly a made-up story not supported by fact or for that matter, the past or current importer. It is supported only by expectation bias; anyone who really wants to get to the bottom of it will find that if they try reversing the fuse again after finding the 'favorable' direction, will find a similar benefit in the other direction. That is if they keep an open mind. Any supposition that the fuse is directional is mistaken, any commercial entity that attempts to convince others that this is so is engaging in fantasy. If a fuse really were directional, it would have inherently inferior properties compared to a non-directional fuse. And again, our customers do report positive results using this and similar fuses. About this they are quite adamant! None of them have reported any directional characteristics, and since the inception of this thread, several have made a point to us that auditioning them in either direction has had a null result. |
Well done and said Ralph, now you can insert it the right way GK. http://image.shutterstock.com/z/stock-vector-pooping-emoticon-67254478.jpg Is that so called "arrow" similar to the Linn Audio symbol, it represents a stylus on a record, but also looks like a diode. http://small.linncdn.com/website/responsive/images/logo-black-chunky.png Cheers George |
Ralph graciously acknowledged his customers were adamant regarding positive results with upgrade level fuses. They had no comments in regard to fuse directional properties. George I understand your position concerning fuses, that has nothing to do with some of Ralhp's customers. Not everyone shares the same viewpointas you. Charles, |
It is supported only by expectation bias; anyone who really wants to get to the bottom of it will find that if they try reversing the fuse again after finding the ’favorable’ direction, will find a similar benefit in the other direction. That is if they keep an open mind. "Expectation bias" I totally agree. Then unbelievable improvements heard like this that just suck the gullible into purchasing these $100 "super fuses" That the supporters of these fuses pat on the back for hearing such great fantastic differences.
Cheers George |
Al wrote, "BTW, Geoff has said at least one thing in this thread that I agree with, although he did not originate the saying. From one of his posts above: Keep an open mind but not so open your brain falls out." That's true, I did not originate the saying. Skeptics did. That’s what Skeptics always say, you know, as if the thing in question is too preposterous to grasp or accept or disobeys some Law of Physics or another. It just turns out that aftermarket fuses and fuse directionality seem to push all the right Skeptic buttons. Lol Which is I why I posted that particular little gem of a Skeptics creedo. Of course, skeptics actually never investigate the claims they rail against. It’s almost as if they’re afraid of the truth. Frankly I don’t really believe they’re particularly open minded, now that you mention it. They kind of pretend to be open minded. At the risk of being repetitive, here’s the bit from the intro to Zen and the Art of Debunkery that seem to apply rather well here, "As the millennium turns, science seems in many ways to be treading the weary path of the religions it presumed to replace. Where free, dispassionate inquiry once reigned, emotions now run high in the defense of a fundamentalized "scientific truth." As anomalies mount up beneath a sea of denial, defenders of the Faith and the Kingdom cling with increasing self-righteousness to the hull of a sinking paradigm. Faced with provocative evidence of things undreamt of in their philosophy, many otherwise mature scientists revert to a kind of skeptical infantilism characterized by blind faith in the absoluteness of the familiar. Small wonder, then, that so many promising fields of inquiry remain shrouded in superstition, ignorance, denial, disinformation, taboo . . . and debunkery." "If folks believed in too much rather than too little they would be much better off generally." - PT Barnum geoff kait machina dynamica |
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Mapman wrote, "It’s easy to label someone a skeptic if they disagree with something, anything." There are skeptics who believe the US carried out the attacks of 911 and they have lots of "evidence" to back it up. Ditto the moon landing. I would probably label them pseudo skeptics. Mapman also wrote, "Best to avoid labels but that won’t stop people with agendas." My agenda is to uncover the truth that has been buried by people with agendas. |
"YOU CAN’T HANDLE THE TRUTH" GK https://pastorchadetaylor.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/wpid-2015-01-03-10-05-07.png Seeing this directional fuse c**p is down to internal component level GK, you should take it over the "Tech Talk " forum, where the the tech heads will definitely tell you which way to insert it. Cheers George |
Can we all agree that this scarecrow pretty much sums this thread up? |
No noise wrote, "Naw, it was to imply that there’s no real answer here that can be agreed upon." Let’s just write the whole thing off as another one of those controversial things that get audiophiles’ goat. If someone didn’t come along many years after Einstein published his General relativity theory and demonstrate that gravity bends light the science community would still be scratching it’s rather pointed head and muttering the same thing, "There is no real answer that can be agreed upon." Not to mention LIGO finally observed gravity waves from a merger of two monster black holes just a couple months ago, confirming Einstein's prediction - 100 years after the fact. |
I bought HiFi Tuning's Supreme fuses ($50-$80 each) and they did make a difference in sound quality, not huge, but good. When I got them I asked some very knowledgeable technical people including the place I bought them (The Cable Company) if the fuses were directional, and they all said fuses are non-directional ("they change direction 60 times a second"). Nonetheless I experimented with changing their direction, and did find a small but significant difference. Go figure. Ears rule. |
Jmski, "Ears rule" well that's how it goes for me as well. I have upmost respect for the technical knowledge and contributions of Al and Ralph, this is without question. I make no attempt to explain fuse direction effects, I'm unqualified to do so. I do trust what I hear in my system and accept that I lack any technical justification. If some want to attribute this to expectation bias, okay fine. For what ever the reason may be there is a difference in sound when fuse directions are reversed. I hear it easily in my system (8 watt SET amplifier ) and my friend's system using a 300 watt Krell amplifier. Why? I don't know, I hear it and my friend easily hears the same sonic changes. I do know man has observed many phenomenon for many years before science could reasonably offer an explanation. So I'll leave the arguments to others and just enjoy and appreciate what I hear. "Ears rule" applies for me. Best Re6, Charles, |
I have observed Audiogon forums with great interest for some time, but have never been motivated to participate until now. Although skeptical, I remain open-minded re. fuses, having never tried them. When I was young, my dad offered up many pearls of wisdom. For example, he often told me "if you had another brain it would be lonesome". An astute observation as it turns out. Once we had a dog that barked incessantly. When I asked my dad why, he said "he just likes to hear his head roar." There is much head roaring going on regarding fuse directionality. You dogs know who you are. Quite a pack! Sorry I couldn't be more positive. By the way, I would guess that these dogs bark loudly and carry a little stick. |
Charles, Jim, How can you be sure that it was the fuse "direction" that made the change in your systems sound, in order to change the fuse you will have to shut down the system then power it back up again then wait for it to return to a fully equalized stage again then make judgement. This powering down / up, the resetting of connectors including then ones on the fuse holder it self will have MUCH larger effect on sound than in which direction the fuse is installed and is probably the real reason that theres is some if any difference in sound. Also in order for the experiment to have any validity at all you would have to be able to re create the same situation , over and over and over again. i.e. you should be able to hear that if someone had changed the direction of the fuse without your knowledge - I'd state that this would be impossible. Good Listening Peter |
Hello Peter, Yes, this explanation has been suggested before. I've gone back and forth several times with my DAC, Line Stage and amplifier and the differences heard remain consistent. My friend whom I mentioned earlier has a very different system and room compared to mine yet the findings are very similar. The changes are not profound (no need for hyperbole ) but are quite noticeable. As this thread and other past threads have demonstrated, some agree and some don't. I have nothing more to offer. Charles, |
"Also in order for the experiment to have any validity at all you would have to be able to re create the same situation , over and over and over again. i.e. you should be able to hear that if someone had changed the direction of the fuse without your knowledge - I’d state that this would be impossible." Of course it could be a lot of things. It COULD be a change in house AC voltage, it could be a change in the weather, it could be oxidation is removed from the fuse holder, it could be explained by a change in the time from day until late at night, changing something else in the system at the same time of the fuse change, the placebo effect or any number of other things. We already know that. It’s the same for the test of ANYTHING. Do you think audiophiles fell off the turnip truck yesterday? And why is it the skeptics who always accuse audiophiles of doing tests incorrectly never actually roll up their sleeves and do the test themselves? Hmmmmm... |
Expectation bias expectation bias is no doubt a factor. I did the audiophile fuse thing recently with a synergistic red fuse in my arc sp 16 recently using a fuse given to me to try. I thought I heard some difference with that versus stock fuse at first but could not be certain after repeated tries. Reversing directions did nothing. I wanted to hear something but did not feel compelled to having been given the fuse. in any case if there was a difference it was too subtle to be assured of. As it stands I am not seeing the value clearly. My my only suggestion is for each to report their experiences but realize not all will hear same results. The reports I read including my own experience seems to bear that out. Be Leary of anyone promising anything or attempting to sell their spin as fact. |
I had different clients who used fuses already so I knew their stories. But I was sceptical as well. But after some tests I had to admit that I was wrong. Mann it makes a huge difference In 2015 we started to change the electric cables inside in the houses of cleints and we use the Siemens Ultimate Cylindric Fuse Cartridge. And creating a group only for audio I seldom had so many enthousiastic clients about the improvement. Because it is not that expensive. http://www.kempelektroniksshop.nl/accessories/cylindric-fuse-cartridge/ultimate-cylindric-fuse-cartr... Biside we have sold many Hi-Fi Tuning fuses to be used in: sources, amps, pre amps, subwoofers and even speakers. http://www.kempelektroniksshop.nl/accessories/hifi-tuning-audio-grade-fuses/hifi-tuning-audio-grade-... Most people called it the best investment they ever made in audio. Beside fuses we also started to change the electric cables inside amps by Audioquest NRG-10 wires. We buy them in bulk and we separate the wires of the NRG-10. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10156774253035083&set=ms.c.eJxdzskJBEEMQ9GMGlnyVvkn1sNAH... Audio is a never ending story and you can improve sound and quality over and over again. |
