Determining current flow to install "audiophile" fuses.
There are 4 fuses in my Odyssey Stratos amp. I recently returned some AMR fuses because they rolled off the highs and lows a little too much for me. Mids were excellent though. Anyway, I'm getting ready to try the Hi-Fi Tuning Classic Gold fuses, as they are on clearance now for $10/ea. Are they any good? However, I have read that they are a directional fuse? Can anyone confirm this? If that is the case, does anyone know the current flow for the Odyssey Stratos? Or, does anyone know how figure out current flow by opening up the top and looking at the circuitry?
"BTW, when I referred to cable effects essentially all being
proportional to length I should make it clear that I was referring to
power wiring."
Nice try but there is no such law as you seem to
be implying.... That’s a Strawman
argument by the way, I.e., a statement of "fact" intended to win the
argument.
Perhaps you can commiserate with the defense electronics dude.
Well, the only kind of effect this defense electronics dude can think of that would not be directly proportional to length, in the case of power wiring or cables conducting analog signals, would be antenna effects, that may affect pickup or radiation of RFI/EMI. And even in that case, it would seem expectable that the antenna effects of a mains fuse (if any) would be swamped by the antenna effects of the much longer associated AC wiring. Also, FWIW, this defense electronics dude cannot envision a means by which the antenna effects of a fuse (if any) might be different depending on the direction in which it is inserted.
almarg6,299 posts04-14-2016 10:21amGeorge, it’s not clear who your last post was addressed to, but if it was addressed to the person who posted just above that post I think you may not have interpreted what he said as it was intended.
Georges is in attack mode. LOL!!!
mlsstl641 posts04-13-2016 10:27pmI find it ironic the extremes to which admitted subjective audiophiles will go in order to to claim that their perceptions are due to anythingbutsubjectivity. That’s classic -- apparently subjective audiophiles are embarrassed by their subjectivity. Hence the need to concoct exotic harebrained technical explanations in an attempt to justify and explain what they hear.
I use audiophile fuses and can hear different directions. I'm NOT embarrassed, SUNSHINE! What's to embarrassed?? The only explanation I need is trust my sense of hearing.
I can probably speak for most members participating in the Synergistic Red Fuse thread too,
SUNSHINE.
As a long time manufacturer of amplifiers and pre- amplifiers I hope you will share in detail the feedback your customers have conveyed to you concerning which fuses improved the sound and which did not.
I think this information would be especially useful to the OTL community to which you and I belong. My amp is an Eddie Current Zana Deux - tube based , as are your OTL products. Your providing this information does not constitute a manufacturer's endorsement.
Well, I was the first to answer the OP and said I couldn't think of why a fuse could be directional. Since then, I called McCormack (I own a DNA-1)and spoke at length with Pat, who said that I should try the fuses in both directions and see if there is a difference. (He did think there is a difference).. I bought the last few Hifi Tuning Star Sapphires still available for the Power Mains. To me, yes, there was a difference in sound, a significant change, mostly for the better. So, after a few days, I will try reversing the fuse and will post my observations. No, it won't be a scientific test, but I consider my audio system a pleasure/hobby.- Though it would be nice if there were a scientific explanation. My only gripe is that many of these companies are upgrading their fuses, AND then increasing prices to somewhat unreasonable amounts.-Perhaps that should go on another thread....
Excerpt from the introduction of Zen and the Art of Debunkery:
"As the millennium turns, science seems in many ways to be treading the weary path of the religions it presumed to replace. Where free, dispassionate inquiry once reigned, emotions now run high in the defense of a fundamentalized "scientific truth." As anomalies mount up beneath a sea of denial, defenders of the Faith and the Kingdom cling with increasing self-righteousness to the hull of a sinking paradigm. Faced with provocative evidence of things undreamt of in their philosophy, many otherwise mature scientists revert to a kind of skeptical infantilism characterized by blind faith in the absoluteness of the familiar. Small wonder, then, that so many promising fields of inquiry remain shrouded in superstition, ignorance, denial, disinformation, taboo . . . and debunkery.
• Put on the right face. Cultivate a condescending air certifying that your personal opinions are backed by the full faith and credit of God. Adopting a disdainful, upper-class manner is optional but highly recommended.
• Employ vague, subjective, dismissive terms such as "ridiculous," "trivial," "crackpot," or "bunk," in a manner that purports to carry the full force of scientific authority.
• Keep your arguments as abstract and theoretical as possible. This will send the message that accepted theory overrides any actual evidence that might challenge it -- and that therefore no such evidence is worth examining.
• By every indirect means at your disposal imply that science is powerless to police itself against fraud and misperception, and that only self-appointed vigilantism can save it from itself.
• Portray science not as an open-ended process of discovery but as a pre-emptive holy war against invading hordes of quackery-spouting infidels. Since in war the ends justify the means, you may fudge, stretch or violate the scientific method, or even omit it entirely, in the name of defending it.
• Reinforce the popular fiction that our scientific knowledge is complete and finished. Do this by asserting that "if such-and-such discovery were legitimate, then surely we would already know about it!"
• Deny the possibility of phenomena for which no plausible explanations have been advanced. Ignore such contrary examples as the existence of disease prior to the discovery of microbes, the sun's copious production of energy long before the discovery of nuclear fusion, and the stubborn persistence of gravity despite our stubborn ignorance of its inner workings."
"It's how the wire of the conductor is manufactured that determines it's sonic directionality".
"Obviously unless the cable manufacturer keeps track of the directionality of all wire the result will not be satisfactory".
"All wire is physically asymmetrical due to being pulled through the final die. That's what make (sic) the wire directional sonically".
"Make sense?'
To make sense, the maker of fuses claimed to be directional would have to have either:
1- Manufactured the wire used in his fuses (having control over the manufacturing would facilitate him keeping track of the directional properties of that wire. Do any of the audiophile fuse makers claim to manufacture the wire they use in their fuses?)
Or:
2- Bought the wire they use in their fuses from a wire manufacturer who claims and guarantees directionality of the wire the fuse maker employs in his fuses.
If neither of the above two are claimed, how does the fuse maker determine the directionality of the wire he buys and uses in his tubes?
"Deny the possibility of phenomena for which no plausible explanations have been advanced".
No, I actually admit that possibility. But, if the above quotes are advanced as plausible explanations for the directionality of fuses, yet neither 1 nor 2 are the case, I fail to see how a fuse can be claimed to have been made with directional properties.
Gents, I stuck my neck into the "Red Fuse" debate recently and it found it fruitless. This fuse "direction" debate is even more absurd. Lots of educated folks propound evidence that it is BS with AC current. All smart guys know that to be the case. Others, perhaps with an expectational bias, hear it differently and good for them and the boutique fuse marketers.
The point of my post to my erudite friends hereon, from whom I have leaned plenty (you know who you are) is that engaging GK in a rational argument about electrical circuit behavior is a fool's errand, just tiltin’ at windmills. You are trying to engage in a logical, rational discussion with him and it is impossible. He is on a different wave-length in all manner of his perception of reality and clearly loves to pull everybody’s chain who is thinking about anything that makes any sort of sense. I am scornful of his often successful attempts at making thoughtful and helpful posters take their eye off the ball, which is our enjoyment of music and the gear to do with, to engage in his ridiculously inane assertions. My best advice is not to engage the fellow as it is less productive than dealing with a petulant two-year old child who is having a "bad hair" day. The big picture is that in the audio world, GK is as insignificant as the atoms he sees floating around on the surface of conductors. I pity him as he brings nothing but vitriol to these discussions. We are all bigger than that. Cheers lads, Whitestix
"To make sense, the maker of fuses claimed to be directional would have to have either:
1- Manufactured the wire used in his fuses (having control over the manufacturing would facilitate him keeping track of the directional properties of that wire. Do any of the audiophile fuse makers claim to manufacture the wire they use in their fuses?)"
Excellent, excellent! Did you just take some smart pills or something? Of course the fuse manufacturer would have to keep track of the wire in terms of the correct direction and ensure that the correct direction is maintained throughout the whole manufacturing process. It sounds complicated but it’s actually not and fuse manufacturers - just like cable manufacturers - have been doing just that twenty years. Hel-looo! PS the fuse manufacturers don’t actually have to manufacture the wire. All they would have to do is check for directionality when the big spool of wire arrives. Then the directionality of the wire for the rest of the entire spool is known. Of course, some fuse manufacturers might produce their own wire, who knows? But it wouldn’t matter, the methodology would be the same.
So there ARE (not shouting, but my 'puter doesn't offer italicization) bulk wire manufacturers (specifically the ones from whom the fuse makers claiming directionality get their wire) who offer direction-orientated wire, and indicate the "flow" direction of the wire on their spools? I don't suppose one such wire maker can be cited?
"So there ARE (not shouting, but my ’puter doesn’t offer italicization) bulk wire manufacturers (specifically the ones from whom the fuse makers claiming directionality get their wire) who offer direction-orientated wire, and indicate the "flow" direction of the wire on their spools? I don’t suppose one such wire maker can be cited?"
recall from HiFi Tuning data sheets wire measures differently, albeit slightly, in one direction vs the other.Thus all the fuse manufacturer has to do is to cut the first small section of wire off the spool and measure the voltage drop across the wire, both ways. Voila! And if the fuse manufacturer makes his own wire he can see how the wire comes off the final die. So he just tags the wire to keep track of the direction. It’s not rocket science. I just saved you a phone call to a fuse manufacturer. Besides, we already know all wire is directional.
Indeed whatcha'll arguin' for? The "effort" had already been invested in directionality of fuse(s) to let you all fools know why fuses are so pricey. If you don't hear difference between directions and fuses, go to doctor OK?
Okay, I switched the fuse direction today and am listening. Details at 11...
My bugaboo: IF fuses are directional, AND manufacturers know this, Then, Why can't they tell us which way to orient the fuse for most musical reproduction? As I said earlier, Pat as SMc, said to try them one way and reverse them later and see what sounded better. To my feeble mind, if these things are directional, then you must know which way is best without needing to switch things around.
Okay, I switched the fuse direction today and am listening. Details at 11...
Before reaching any conclusions, my suggestion is that you switch it back and forth a couple of times, and listen to the same recordings at precisely the same volume settings following each reversal. In other words, try to verify that the results are repeatable, and that any differences that may be perceived are not due to extraneous variables such as differences in warmup state, variations in AC line voltage and/or noise conditions that may occur at different times of the day or night, differences in contact integrity, etc.
I'll let you all debate fuses and directionality to your heart's content. How you spend your time on this big rock we call Earth is none of my business.
Geoff - your comment:
By the same token, reversing interconnects that were inserted randomly
between components will improve the sound 50% of the time for the same
reason. It’s a wire directionality issue. It’s why many boutique cable
manufacturers have been putting directional arrows on their cables for
twenty five years. Hel-loo!
Geoff Kait Machina Dynamica we do artificial atoms right
doesn't belong in this conversation. A large percentage of interconnects are shielded and should be plugged in according to the directionality that the manufacturer specifies. No, I have not run a statistical survey of the percentage of cables that are shielded.
To those of you who don't know what this means from a hookup perspective, the outer shield is tied to the RCA ground at only one side. The shield "floats" at the other side.
The grounded side should be plugged into the source. IOW, it should be plugged into the line stage side of an interconnect that runs from a line stage to power amp(s), the phono stage side of a cable that runs from phono stage to line stage, etc..
In my experience, there is an audible degradation (noise) when you reverse the cable so the grounded shield side is plugged into the load side (i.e. the power amp in the above example).
Could wire be directional? Sure. Could a cable manufacturer wire their interconnect such that the optimum direction (from a wire directionality perspective) is in conflict with the shield connection? It's possible.
"Your comment regarding directionality of interconnects doesn’t belong in this discussion. A large percentage of interconnects are shielded and should be plugged in according to the directionality that the manufacturer specifies. No, I have not run a statistical survey of the percentage of cables that are shielded.
To those of you who don’t know what this means from a hookup perspective, the outer shield is tied to the RCA ground at only one side. The shield "floats" at the other side."
As I already stated I’m not referring to shielded designs. An example of an interconnect that comes with directional arrows but is NOT shielded is the ANTICABLES IC. The reason unshielded cables come with directional arrows is because the conductor itself is directional. ANTICABLES cables comprise only a (solid core) conductor with connectors. Thus, like fuses, and unlike shielded cables, they are perfectly symmetrical; so it must be the *wire itself* that produces directionality. Follow?
From Anti Cables website: "The ANTICABLES Analog RCA Interconnects use the same design concept as the award winning ANTICABLES Speaker Wires. They use only the materials needed (solid core wire and connectors). Those materials are of very high sonic quality, and unnecessary materials such as thick plastic jacketing are eliminated. They are simple, cost effective, and perform very very well..."
Let just say GK your bu****it is correct and that it is directional, do you honestly believe that you have the "Golden Ears" to be able to pick it up with just 1/2" of wire.
Then sunshine, what about all the feet of copper tracks of the circuit board itself, are you going to turn them around too so they are in the right direction as well!!! VOODOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"Let just say GK your bu****it is correct and that it is directional, do you honestly believe that you have the "Golden Ears" to be able to pick it up with just 1/2" of wire.
Then sunshine, what about all the feet of copper tracks of the circuit board itself, are you going to turn them around too so they are in the right direction as well!!! VOODOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
As I’ve stated on many occasions all wire is directional by virtue of the physical asymmetry placed on it when it is pulled through the final die. Thus ANY wire anywhere in the system is directional and best sound from a component will be achieved if whoever put the thing together was cognizant of wire directionality and ensured that all wiring was installed in the correct direction.
As for your example of the copper traces used in printed circuit boards I’ll take your word for it they are "wire" and not some sort of chemical etching or lamination that is not directional. But let’s say for the sake of argument that the internal wiring in a component is all hand wired point to point, without any circuit boards. Then yes, attention should be paid to directionality for all internal wiring - at least all the wire in the signal path. Make sense?
Cheers,
geoff kait @ machinadynamica.com No goats no glory
Thanks Almarg, your recommendations are always appreciated. Power in NYS is pretty stable, so there is less difference than folks on the West Coast where I have been told line voltage varies considerably during the day (actually, it was told to me by SMc). I actually listened to the system for 3 days with the fuses oriented in one direction, so I was sure I was hearing the changes of what I thought I heard. I am pretty analytic by nature and have a good memory for sound, if that makes sense. When I was sure of what I noticed, I then moved the fuse to the opposite direction. It was apparent that there was a difference in sound quality and it was very evident. I will take your advice, though, and try reversing them using the same music, at the same loudness, etc. in order to be as non-judgemental as possible. Though, I will say that, yes, fuses do change the color of the music. In my case, it was dramatic.
George, I take it you’re forfeiting? Excellent move.
No!! just over your VOODOO bu****it trying to make yourself a guru with the gullible here, even though your technically inept. Or maybe your just shilling for a fuse manufacturer. Without any documented evidence of directionality proof on fuses from the manufacturer, which I asked many times for you to post a link to.
Your excluding shielded designs from the discussion is a bit of a strawman, since the vast majority of cables are shielded and therefore have directionality "mandated" by the shield connection, which I’d hazard a guess has a random relationship with the orientation of the signal wire’s directionality in cables from most manufacturers.
Of course, one can reverse the connection of shielded cables with (electrical) impunity.
Assuming a 50% chance of randomly assembled wire being oriented consistently with the shield’s gounding scheme, one is still faced with the choice of experimenting with orientation, and I’d be the last person to stop someone from experimenting.
Fuse directionality? Knock your socks off. As implied earlier however, the experiment needs some controls, and one of them I didn't see mentioned was simply removing and reinstalling the fuse in the SAME orientation. It's entirely possible that the act of removing/installing a fuse slightly alters the contact pressure and this is what people are reporting.
I already covered my risk tolerance with respect to these fuses in another thread, but suffice it to say, Roger Modjewski's comments carry some weight with me and support my approach - irrespective of whether they're being used in an AC or DC application.
IF fuses are directional, AND manufacturers know this, Then, Why
can't they tell us which way to orient the fuse for most musical
reproduction? As I said earlier, Pat as SMc, said to try them one way
and reverse them later and see what sounded better. To my feeble mind,
if these things are directional, then you must know which way is best
without needing to switch things around.
There are too many phase relationships which a manufacturer can't predict: from your speaker's crossovers (and speaker wire connection) to the number of gain stages in your amplification chain - even # or odd # (phase non-inverted vs. phase inverted).
People hear what they hear for all sorts of reasons that are out of the manufacturer's control.
If this concerns you enough, then you should experiment. If it doesn't you're one of the fortunate ones who enjoys listening to music playing through your hi-fi :-)
"Your excluding shielded designs from the discussion is a bit of a strawman, since the vast majority of cables are shielded and therefore have directionality "mandated" by the shield connection, which I’d hazard a guess has a random relationship with the orientation of the signal wire’s directionality in cables from most manufacturers.
Of course, one can reverse the connection of shielded cables with (electrical impunity)."
Actually I didn’t exclude shielded designs from the discussion. So your statement is actually the Strawman. What I said was it’s more difficult to establish what’s going on in a shielded design since the sound is directional for BOTH the shield AND the conductor. You can think of it as trying to solve two simultaneous equations. But since I’m a nice guy here’s what you can do. Measure the voltage drop across the shielded interconnect, first one direction then the other. Just like the measurements of the fuses on the HiFi Tuning data sheets. Since the shield is not connected at one end you will be measuring the voltage drop of the conductor only. The voltage drop will be somewhat less one way than the other. Just like the fuses on the HiFi Tuning data sheets. Thus, you will be able to determine which way the *conductor* should be connected in the system. The only issue then will be, does the correct orientation of the shield agree with the correct orientation of the conductor. If the manufacturer was a clever fellow (or a lucky fellow) it will. Follow?
Thom also wrote,
"Fuse directionality? Knock your socks off. As implied earlier however, the experiment needs some controls, and one of them I didn’t see mentioned was simply removing and reinstalling the fuse in the SAME orientation. It’s entirely possible that the act of removing/installing a fuse slightly alters the contact pressure and this is what people are reporting."
You’re absolutely correct, there is a possibility that the contact pressure is somehow altered, or that some oxidation is scraped off during the experiment, or that it’s the placebo effect or expectation bias or some other variable. But if the experiment is done carefully those other possibilities can be eliminated from consideration. Just like for any experiment.
Most of sciences can be easily checked and challenged with elementary math equations: for example: poor education = strong police and army = lots of wars = lots of dummies that willing to spend money on various type of unnecessary cwap = resisting a free education by all possible means. Do your math than it's easier to figure out science.
I really don't understand why anybody would bother to say that fuse direction doesn't matter. None of us who do hear a difference care what you think. And you, of course, don't care what we think. For about thirty years I heard this nonsense argument. Enough!!!
"Most of sciences can be easily checked and challenged with elementary math equations. Poor education = strong police and army = lots of wars = lots of dummies that willing to spend money on various type of unnecessary cwap = resisting a free education by all possible means."
Newton’s First Law (Inertia): an object will continue along in the same direction at the same speed unless acted on by an outside force.
In terms of Newton's Inertia law with applied theory of limits: If consumed lots of calories of bs per second, i agree it’s very hard to get rid of those calories. Under Inertia law one will continue consuming bs even if no external force is applied.
"In terms of Newton's Inertia law with applied theory of limits: If consumed lots of calories of bs per second, i agree it’s very hard to get rid of those calories. Under Inertia law one will continue consuming bs even if no external force is applied."
Apparently somebody's been consuming a lot of Bunnahabhain Scotch (bs).
We’re in agreement that a shielded interconnect presents two variables which are potentially at odds with each other - the recommended directionality based on the which end the shield is grounded to vs. the grain orientation of the wire.
In bringing up shielded interconnects, I saw no mention of them earlier in this thread. It’s entirely possible my mind was numbed from reading it. I’ll take that as a hint that it’s potentially making me stupid and I’ll get back to my amplifier project before further damage ensues.
Thom, no harm, no foul. These guys beat you to the punch in this thread. The shielding argument is probably the leading argument used by skeptics of wire directionality. Followed closely by oxidation on contacts removed during test, placebo effect, expectation bias and a change in house AC voltage.
Atmasphere: "There can be reasons why a cable has directionality (mostly having to do with how the shield is constructed; this has nothing to do with fuses)."
Mapman: "Right my understanding is the reason the Monster wires are directional as indicated is because of the shield implementation. That’s pretty much the only reason that I have read of. My MIT wires have no indicators and I can’t say if it matters or not there. Fuses are a different story. Most high end audio fuse makers seem to leave a lot to the end listener’s imagination."
Georgelofi: "Yes you are correct some interconnects can be directional, ones that have +&- conductors with a shield, that’s only connected at one end, that end should be at poweramp.
But fuses are not shielded. And I still ask you or anyone else to post any manufacturers ad/doc that SAYS they are directional. "It’s all VOODOO" that you are promoting."
"...and I’ll get back to my amplifier project before further damage ensues."
Speaking of amplifiers, assuming for the sake of argument that all wire is directional, imagine how much better Amplifier A would be if all internal wiring was connected with directionality in mind. Point to point wiring, transformer wiring, capacitors, resistors, etc. And of course all cabling coming into and leaving the amplifier.
As a long time manufacturer of amplifiers and pre- amplifiers I hope you
will share in detail the feedback your customers have conveyed to you
concerning which fuses improved the sound and which did not.
So far all the comments we have received on boutique fuses have been positive. However for all those comments, not one of them has mentioned anything about directionality. The feedback we have goes back about to about 2006 or so when the fuses seemed to move from the automotive stereo community to high end audio.
If anyone looks at machina dynamica product lineup, one should understand that their products relate to audio the same way the fuse directionality does.
"So far all the comments we have received on boutique fuses have been positive. However for all those comments, not one of them has mentioned anything about directionality."
Chances are good any customers who know you doesn’t wish to irritate you by bringing up fuse directionality. ;-)
Atmasphere also wrote,
"The feedback we have goes back about to about 2006 or so when the fuses seemed to move from the automotive stereo community to high end audio."
Autmotive stereo community? Say what?! Exotic fuses were introduced twenty years ago by Isoclean (Japan) and HiFi Tuning (Germany) to the high end audio community. Hel-loo!
Czarivey, you appear to be approximately two paradigm shifts behind the power curve, if you don't mind my saying so too much. Did you perchance miss out on the whole Perestroyka thing?
Things labelled "audiophile" seem to most often be called that to get the attention of audiophiles who are likely the only ones to care enough about whatever it is being pitched for better sound.
If these products are truly so great, especially for the bargain audiophile price of only $100 or so, Why don't any others care?
It's all a joke to some but I suppose everyone loves a good mystery....
I’m a born in the wool Genesis fan from way back in Peter Gabriel days. Gotta respect Phil Collins. A truly talented artist who has always bucked the odds for success. As long as he’s still kicking I am always interested to hear what he might do next.
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