Determining current flow to install "audiophile" fuses.
There are 4 fuses in my Odyssey Stratos amp. I recently returned some AMR fuses because they rolled off the highs and lows a little too much for me. Mids were excellent though. Anyway, I'm getting ready to try the Hi-Fi Tuning Classic Gold fuses, as they are on clearance now for $10/ea. Are they any good? However, I have read that they are a directional fuse? Can anyone confirm this? If that is the case, does anyone know the current flow for the Odyssey Stratos? Or, does anyone know how figure out current flow by opening up the top and looking at the circuitry?
Hello, just curious, how can they test a WA Quantum Chip? Has anyone actually tried to test one? I am not referring to listening tests, I’m already on board the whole freewheelin’ WA Chip thing. I’m referring to more uh, traditional tests. For example a fuse WA Quantum Chip. Oh, just an FYI - the first quantum chip, the original orange Intelligent Chip from Golden Sound, celebrated it’s 10th anniversary last year. ;-) There was even chips subsequent to the Intelligent Chip, which was for treating CDs, for placing on power cords and cables.
geoff kait machina dramatica we do artificial atoms right
"Yes the biggest load of BS ever seen/heard since, the Shun Mook Mpingo Discs from the early 90’s another gullible sucker.
I hope members here are not being sucked in by all this voodoo. Your audio equipment is designed by brilliant electronic technicians who have passion for good sound.
Don’t let these shilling witchdoctors here and their cronies that have no idea about the technical/scientific design of audio, suck you in with their voodoo BS!!"
Gee, if Shun Mook Mpingo discs were a hoax what’s with all those rave reviews? Do you reviewers were given a free Shun Mook Mpingo disc for writing a positive review? Or perhaps a big wad of cash? Do you believe there is some sort of global conspiracy related to audiophile tweaks like WA Quantum Chips and fancy fuses and Mpingo discs that is intended to appeal to young, naive and vulnerable audiophiles? Hey, weren’t the Chinese experts at brainwashing? Whaaaaaat? Lol
bo1972 "... Audio
is not transparent, but it is controlled by brands and money. This is
the main reason why people get a low level in quality."
Actually, the audio world functions quite well as an open market. Wall Street should be so transparent! Of course, this may not be convenient for dealers such as bo1972, who want to promote some supposedly proprietary expertise.
Yes the biggest load of BS ever seen/heard since, the Shun Mook Mpingo Discs from the early 90’s another gullible sucker.
I hope members here are not being sucked in by all this voodoo. Your audio equipment is designed by brilliant electronic technicians who have passion for good sound.
Don't let these shilling witchdoctors here and their cronies that have no idea about the technical/scientific design of audio, suck you in with their voodoo BS!!
In 2015 we also did a lot of research in smog. This was even for me totally new. I never did any research in this area.
Now in 2016 I can say mannnn smog really F. up the sound and quality of each audio system.
I was very sceptical about this to be honest. Ronald Kemp send me different times stuff to test. But for a long time I never was interested to test it.
The same regarding the fuses I was wrong, you can easilly improve the sound.
I have done many tests and now I know exactly were and how to use it. This I keep for myself. Test it yourself.....
This is a lot more difficult to use than fuses. Because it is very easy to create a lower endresult in sound when you use it wrong.
Because compared to how old the electricity equipment is in your house and what they use makes it a lot different in result. There are electric groups which will not work with these stickers
There are many amps, sources, conditiones and places were you cannot use them.
I take it with me to clients and I compare and test to see were it works and needs to be placed.
The Maxiimus is by far the best tool I ever tested to improve sound based on electricity.
Shootouts I did with clients made people go crazy. Some people said; it is f. with my brian. Most people heard how big the differences were. And it is difficult to go back without it.
Geoffkait wrote "PS for Atmasphere: time to catch up to the 21st century. A lot has happened in those 27 years. We have quantum chips and everything! ;-)"
to which Atmasphere responded,
"Yes, the quantum chips are a hoax."
That you would say that, in light of my Super Intelligent Chip and the WA Quantum Chip, neither of which is a hoax, my superstitious friend, sort of reinforces my statement that it’s time to play catch up. I can certainly appreciate that everyone has his own thing and that audiophiles and manufacturers tend to get blinders on for other things that are happening, you know like advanced fuses and quantum chips. That focusing on business at hand and ignoring others things is what I like to call Stove Piping. And perhaps it’s time to allow some of quantum mechanics into your thinking. It’s only been what, like a hundred years since quantum mechanics came out?
geoff kait machina dynamica we do artificial atoms right
To create a difference in sound is quite easy, but to create an improvement is something totally different and also a lot more difficult.
That is why I work and think by Tru-Fi. Because these are 8 different parts you judge sound for. Each part of a set I can judge by Tru-Fi when I am aware of the properties it owns. ( d.n.a.) These parts has nothing to do with personal taste but with facts who are noticeable by hearing.
This makes audio so much more easy tot understand and use. This is the main reason why I test so much ( for me it does not cost energy at all. To be honest I think I am even addicted)
I share my testresults all the time with my clients. Because I can improve sound over and over again. In each year I create many new options to improve sound.
Albert Einstein said the definition of insanity is doing something over and over again but expecting a different result.
It is a repeating way for me as well to create a better endresult. Always using the same parametres.
I have proven to many people that it creates a superior endresult in sound compared to the ’old fashion way’ of creating an audio set.
Oregonpapa 4-26-2016
Al ... I bought new wiper blades from the dealer for my Lexus LS ... and
they suck. However, when I recently changed the worn Goodyear Eagles
put on by the previous owner for a new set of Michelin Premiers it was
like going from a noisy clumpy ride to gliding on velvet. I don't have a
clue about tire technology ... but I know what I hear and feel in my
car. And by the way, with the new quiet ride, the Mark Levinson sound
system has much better highs and mids. Too bad it doesn't have a fuse
that can be changed out for an SR Black fuse ... or does it? Hmmm ...
Perhaps the Goodyears would have done better if some or all of them had been re-mounted such that what was the inside surface was on the outside. That way they would be rotating in the opposite direction.
Only kidding :-)
Actually, I'm not surprised. One of the versions of the Goodyear Eagle is original equipment on my Porsche Cayman S. Definitely designed for performance, not comfort, at least in that version.
"
I have to admit that the differences in how big the influences are of
the fuses are big. And yes there are a few situations that it didn’t do
as much as other situations.
"
Well Bo you earn points in my book for acknowledging that results vary. Its the only correct position to take with most anything audio since not all appreciate any audio product equally as is evidenced by the variety of gear and approaches out there.
So if you have customers that trust your recommendations, then more power to them if you make recommendations that retain their trust.
"I’ll be the first to admit that I don’t have near the knowledge ( practical or theoretical) than most here, but I just can’t seem to hear any difference between stock or audiophile fuses ( regardless of direction)....."You mean I can transform my systems sound for a mere few hundred dollars?". It used to be too tempting for me to pass up, but not anymore. Marketers are great at exploiting our obsession with obtaining audio nirvana. A good glass of Scotch or a martini is all the tweaking I need to take my music listening to the next level."
Hmmmm, one wonders, why do Anti Tweakers oft seem to favor a good strong belt of whiskey over tweaks? ;-) At least Mapman can take some comfort in the fact that there exists another person who cannot hear fuses or directionality of same.
Other famous Skeptic quotes,
"I swear I can’t hear absolute polarity."
"I honestly can’t hear the difference between CD and LP."
"I cannot tell when a CD is dynamically compressed."
"I can’t hear the difference between really expensive cables and Monster Cable."
In the last 1.5 years we have replaced fuses of many amp, pre amps sources and even a few set of speakers.
I have to admit that the differences in how big the influences are of the fuses are big. And yess there are a few situations that it didn’t do as much as other situations.
In the past I sold many Primare products and with the amps it makes only a small step to be honest. So I don’t recommend these products.
As a dealer you need to know which products make a big improvement and which don’t. Beside this any client need to have the freedom to get his money back.
But beside this in many sistuations we had a lot of succes. You need to have the freedom to test fuses so you know how it will work in your situation.
It takes about a week ( 24 hours a day for 7 days) before the fuses are burned in. In the beginning often the image is too much focussed on instrumenrs and voices. After a week it becomes more like a whole part.
When it doesn’t bring enough, you should have the option to bring it back and get your amount back.
I'll be the first to admit that I don't have near the knowledge ( practical or theoretical) than most here, but I just can't seem to hear any difference between stock or audiophile fuses ( regardless of direction). I'm not knocking those that do, more power to you......they can enjoyed their perceived improved sound and I'll enjoy saving all that money :) IMO most tweaks haven't provided any improved sonics for me and have found that quality components, system synergy and speaker placement go much further in obtaining good sound........but these many "reasonably" priced tweaks are oh so tempting. " You mean I can transform my systems sound for a mere few hundred dollars?". It used to be too tempting for me to pass up, but not anymore. Marketers are great at exploiting our obsession with obtaining audio nirvana. A good glass of Scotch or a martini is all the tweaking I need to take my music listening to the next level ;)
If you guys just had a minuscule amount of AC theory, you would understand the voodoo in this BS of fuse reversal, and whatever else is being shilled here on them.
I don't know if its this thread or the three fingers of the single barrel bourbon I've had tonight, but I'm laughing my a$$ off at this point.
Al ... I bought new wiper blades from the dealer for my Lexus LS ... and they suck. However, when I recently changed the worn Goodyear Eagles put on by the previous owner for a new set of Michelin Premiers it was like going from a noisy clumpy ride to gliding on velvet. I don't have a clue about tire technology ... but I know what I hear and feel in my car. And by the way, with the new quiet ride, the Mark Levinson sound system has much better highs and mids. Too bad it doesn't have a fuse that can be changed out for an SR Black fuse ... or does it? Hmmm ...
Ralph ... As we know, not everyone hears the same and/or makes honest assessments of audio gear. As good as your electronics are ... and in my opinion, fantastic, a bad review can be devastating to a small manufacturer. We both know a certain reviewer who did a little tube rolling in one of your gorgeous sounding pre-amps before he wrote his review and didn't like the sound. He then proceeded to write a negative review based on the sound he got from other than stock tubes provided by the factory. Enough said there. My assessment of the review was that the guy must have been STONED. :-)
Georgelofi ...
"This is just a shill fest..."
Obviously you've tried the SR Black fuses in your own system in order to come up with such an assessment, right? Surely you wouldn't intimate that there is some kind of dishonesty going on here unless you've actually tried the fuses for yourself. Why of course not ... Only a complete ass would do something like that.
Mapman, yes I suppose I have a gift for word. You have a lot of posts, though, so you shouldn't feel too bad. I’m more into quality over quantity, myself. No offense intended. Let the twitching commence!
I know a person who works for a world know company. He was with some collegues in England at What Hifi. When they wanted 5 stars for their product they had to pay an amount of 4 digits.
At the end they didn’t pay and they got 3 stars. Tests often doesn’t garantee you anything.
The question is; when is a test objective and honest? I know many products with great reviews who were very poor. And also products with average reviews who were exeptional good.
I think you need a new and different way of perspective to judge audio products. And you know why?
Because they way it goes now in 10 years the audio market will decrease for sure.
It is not the question if it needs to change, but how because you cannot wait too long!
Geoffkait wrote," You cannot extrapolate or generalize your negative results to make some grand statement such as, "I tried the fuse and didn’t hear anything, therefore it doesn’t work."
To which Mapman retorted,
"Well I did try reversing directions and heard nothing so yes I can."
I know you’d like to be the Lone Ranger in this but actually your test means nothing. Obviously it means a lot to you. Just not to anyone else. Negative results in any experiment can be easily explained any number of ways. Shall I expound on that thought?
Mapman had these afterthoughts,
"Don’t be scared......
You’ve done nothing but run your mouth."
Ouch! Very ouch! (One imagines it’s not much fun being an outlier.)
geoff kait no goats no glory
PS for Atmasphere: time to catch up to the 21st century. A lot has happened in those 27 years. We have quantum chips and everything! ;-)
FWIW the stock slo blo fuse that came in my ARC sp16 appears to have been well thought out to start as well. It is quite substantial and unique in its build compared to most common slo blow fuses I have seen over the years.
How much a "good sounding" fuse need to cost is a whole other can of worms. Slo blo or otherwise. It can cost as much as someone is willing to pay based on it "sounding better" even if for totally unknown reasons.
So its not a given that all high end vendors just shove any old fuse in there to start with. Good vendors tend to think everything over pretty carefully.
Another reason to not generalize and say fuse X always sounds better. What one starts with is certainly a factor as always. No mysteries there. A change in one case is not the same as in others.
Also interestingly the fuse is not symmetrical in its build which is obvious to the naked eye (unlike crystal patterns of metal) and reversing that does nothing as well.
I’m going to develop and market an audiophile grade bi-directional fuse
and nip this thing in the bud. With this product, IT WON’T MATTER AND
THERE WILL BE NO UNCERTAINTY! :-)
We've already got one!
27 years ago we recognized that fuses can affect the way our equipment sounds. At the time, there were no boutique fuses, but we sorted out a fuse that in fact did sound better, and designed the sheet metal for our MA-2 to accommodate it. We still use this fuse today; interestingly enough it sounds better than the boutiques we've tried and it does not cost as much, although its not a cheap fuse by any means. However it must be built pretty well as reversing it in the holder has no audible effect whatsoever.
27 years- does that make us one of the first manufacturers to recognize this phenom? I think it does.
I’m going to develop and market an audiophile grade bi-directional fuse and nip this thing in the bud. With this product, IT WON’T MATTER AND THERE WILL BE NO UNCERTAINTY! :-)
Phew, what a discourse... I have to say I am on the side of Oregonpapa, I have no electrical engineering experience either, but I have to say switching to the Hifi Tuning fuses made a difference to the sound my stereo produce. I only bought the fuses on the recommendation from SMc, and because the model was being discontinued and was on sale. Would I have bought an $80-100 dollar fuse? No Way! Since there are many variables that could have affected the sound (even the contacts of the fuse), I can't say for sure if it did something on its' own. But, for my old ears, it did change something, mostly for the better. As for reversing fuses, I would like to do this, but am now working more than playing, so it has to wait. Also, I don't think I can make a scientific/unbiased report when I have to power down the amp, replace the fuse and restart everything-every little change adds another unknown to the equation.
" You cannot extrapolate or generalize your negative results to make some grand statement such as, "I tried the fuse and didn’t hear anything, therefore it doesn’t work." "
Well I did try reversing directions and heard nothing so yes I can.
This is just a shill fest, for fuse manufacturers or retailers, who are cleaning up on the gullible here, with "expectation bias" (love that saying Ralph you need to patent it) or the too lazy to return for a refund crew.
Dam wish I was devious enough to think it up. Maybe I can sell stick on resonant dots that have been cryo’ed!!!!!
The audiophile fuses industry consists of 2 parts:
Part A: CONSUMER: Portion will "hear" somethin' and be happy and portion won't and ask for refund. The "happy" portion will generate income.
PartB: LEGEND: Purchase fuse from mouser.com or few stones from BB&B or piece of rubber from Home Depot, attach the story or legend or other terminological abomination to get as many as possible for "happy" portion to get maximum profit.
Everyone knows that selling 'air' is most profitable -- just need to know how piece of penny can bring hundreds of $$
"Tests are better than words or theory alone when it comes to how things actually sound."
Actually they aren't. For the very reason that we observe in your results with the Red fuse. You cannot extrapolate or generalize your negative results to make some grand statement such as, "I tried the fuse and didn't hear anything, therefore it doesn't work." Capish? Now, if a lot of folks reported negative results I might be inclined to say, well, the preponderance of the evidence is starting to turn against the whole fuse and fuse directionality thing. Alas, such is not the case.
"I will say that I did not know Randi inserted himself into the cable controversy or that he actually has a personal history with you and your products Geoff so I will chalk that up to "you learn something every day." My knowledge of him was related to his paranormal abilities challenge. Now I understand your response better."
More good stuff. It was actually Michael Fremer of Stereophile who was going to take the Million Dollar Challenge and it was Pear cables that were the subject of the blind test. The person who was going to take the blind test for the Intelligent Chip was a customer of mine who went by the moniker Wellfed over on AA. Both negotiations broke down and the tests were never administered. Although someone else actually took the Chip test subsequently but flunked. I’m pretty sure The Amazing Randi knew a good thing when he saw it and as the business of exposing dowsers and spoon benders and ghost chasers had run out of steam Randi probably thought, well, what better subject to go after than strange audiophile tweaks and super expensive cables? That’s pretty close to paranormal, no? Close enough for Government work, anyway.
I just finished reading a blog post on economics where the author did a mea culpa for something he did many years ago as an example of "motivated reasoning". He chose to ignore the models at the time and went looking for something to validate his point. He failed, and became much more astute and rigid when it comes to using the models as they rarely diverge from actual reality (unless due to larger external factors not present in the modeling).
I would like to put forth an analogy here that posits that what models we have here (those who have tried and heard differences and improvements with fuses) are being overlooked by those who are motivated to ignore and refute them without resorting to the models for some firsthand, empirical experience.
The ad hominem attacks I've read here seem to back this up as frustration is the result of having nothing better to say or do to illustrate one's point, a point not based on actual, empirical experience.
Granted, the models are new despite being around for many years but it's really all we have to go on. I've yet to try and change direction of my fuses because it would be a daunting task and I'm simply not up to it. Besides, I'm very happy with the sound as it is with the HiFi Tuning fuses that I have. I can tell you, firsthand, that they did make a difference for the better.
Not having any firsthand experience in changing fuse direction doesn't stop me from appreciating what others experience. It makes me scratch my head a bit but I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.
"There are many reasons a test can yield negative results so one must take results from any test with a grain of salt."
Agreed but, OTOH, many things we live with are subjected to testing from structural materials tests to make sure building materials meet their design requirements to crash tests for automobiles to air and water quality tests. Some of the tests get things mostly right and others not so much. With this audio stuff, it seems that testing has not "proven" anything, particularly as related to sound quality. Sometimes the tests confirm why something sounds poor or good but other times there seems to be little correlation. Maybe the tests are not always testing the correct parameters and/or maybe there are parameters that folks are unaware of, or for which there is no accurate testing equipment.
I will say that I did not know Randi inserted himself into the cable controversy or that he actually has a personal history with you and your products Geoff so I will chalk that up to "you learn something every day." My knowledge of him was related to his paranormal abilities challenge. Now I understand your response better.
Dear cleeds: the advantage of today is that you can get a much higher level in quality than before. But beside this you can get so much more different products and new brands than before.
In 2015 I met several people who spend a lot of money on audio and were nog happy at all what they received.
There are even highend brands owned by investment companies these days. Here you see that the quality is getting less. I will not use the names because then it will be removed again.
These brands are well known and my clients were very dissapointed in the quality these products gave.
In the last days I had contact with several clients of mine about fuses. I said: In the US many believe it is a scam. Many had to laugh.
I still believe that scepticism is being created by those products who are not worth the money. In audio most are......
Oregonpapa, let's suppose that in an automobile-related forum someone were to claim that changing the wiper blades on his vehicle from Brand X to Brand Y improved his gas mileage by 10%. It would seem safe to assume that pretty nearly all of us would conclude that the person making the claim is either mistaken, or deluded, or has a financial interest in Brand Y, or that something other than using Brand Y was responsible for the improvement.
And unless there were indications to the contrary I for one would tend to presume the most likely of those alternatives to be the last one, that something else was responsible for the improvement. For example, perhaps it had been raining frequently, and the better visibility provided by the new Brand Y blades, compared to the aged Brand X blades, resulted in the person driving a bit faster, at a more fuel efficient speed.
To those of us having an extensive background in electronic design, or to at least most of us having such a background, and who have a better than average understanding of how this stuff works, assertions that fuses can have directional characteristics that are audibly significant (especially in AC applications), engender similar reactions. In my own case, though, as I stated in one of my posts in this thread dated 4-13-2016, the degree of my skepticism is "limited only by respect for perceptions that have been reported by a few members I consider to be particularly credible."
Now, why should it matter that none of the assembled experts can come up with an explanation for fuse directionality that we consider to be even remotely plausible, beyond the several possibilities that have been cited involving extraneous variables. (And btw I would have no problem if anyone who so chooses were to put the word "experts" in quotes). Well, as I said in the SR fuse thread, in a post dated 3-28-2016:
...one reason I attach significance to the lack of a confidence-inspiring
explanation is that it lessens the predictability of whether a
particular tweak will benefit a particular component in a particular
system. And one reason I attach significance to a reduction in
predictability, despite the existence of return privileges, is that ... assessment of a tweak involves an
investment of time even if it doesn't involve an investment of money.
I have NO technical training in electronics. When it comes to math, I have a hard time with simple arithmetic. I am so old that I'm still amazed that airplanes can fly without propellers. HOWEVER, I DO KNOW WHAT I HEAR.
oregonpapa, That's typical for most of US population and that's why fuse, hook-up speaker or component wire and other tweaks are so pricey. Not because they REALLY make difference, but because of inability of waging magnitudes of values and extremely poor math.
One thing that has become crystal clear to me is that those who hear improvements brought about by the fuse upgrades enjoy a healthy sense of humor ... and those who don't ... don't.
"Geoff’s immediate response about controlled blind testing rearing "it’s ugly head" the "Amazing Randi" and trying to "scare the fuse affectionados into submission" is as negative as anything I posted."
I realize my comments can be perceived as negative but actually I’m only trying to be helpful and uh, positive. The reason I made the statement that controlled blind testing raised it’s ugly head is simply because many skeptics use blind testing as sort of the arbiter of controversial tweaks like fuses, as if blind testing will PROOVE that the controversial tweak in question - like a fuse - doesn’t work as advertised. The reality is that no tests not even blind tests, in and of themselves, can PROOVE that the thing in question doesn’t work as advertised. Any test, blind test or whatever, is only a data point to be considered along with other tests. There are many reasons a test can yield negative results so one must take results from any test with a grain of salt.
The reason I mentioned The Amazing Randi is because (1) at one time he offered a Million Dollars to anyone who can hear the difference between really expensive audiophile cables and cheap audio cables, (2) he offered a Million Dollars to anyone who could pass the controlled blind test for the Intelligent Chip, and (3) because your humble scribe was the subject of five of The Amazing Randi’s diatribes published in his weekly Nesletter; it was probably the Intelligent Chip and the Clever Little Clock and the Teleportation Tweak that got him all wound up.
bo1972 " ... Audio has become a monopolistic world, this makes people sceptical, it is understandable."
You must be joking. There's never been more high quality choices available to audiophiles than there are today. I realize that you think that "over 95% of all products in audio shops are not worth the money," but obviously there are many who don't agree. It certainly is not a monopolistic market.
I have been doing this for a long time too. I will not presume to tell you what you hear, no more than you can tell me what I hear, or don’t hear.
Comparing whether one believes in the sonic improvement of a fuse with whether one believes in God is the type of thing that stirs the pot here. Particularly when you say,
And why you naysayers rail with so much negativity
I don’t think you will find "so much negativity" in my posts, just a challenge to those who hear such an improvement to really try it for yourselves in a controlled manner.....maybe you have already done that but I have not yet seen a post here from anyone who has. Geoff’s immediate response about controlled blind testing rearing "it’s ugly head" the "Amazing Randi" and trying to "scare the fuse affectionados into submission" is as negative as anything I posted. Even so, I find Geoff’s posts semi-humorous and consider our back and forth to be friendly banter. To proclaim that all who do not believe in the transformational effects of an audiophile fuse are "railing with negativity" is both not accurate and not helpful.
As the great Bill Withers saaeys "if it feels this good getting used then come on and . . . . " I am sure you get the idea my man. Maybe not, but I think Bill says it all.
My synergistic red fuses are amazing. I want a black one for my r2r ladder dac or sigma delta, or maybe it is another type, I just don't know for sure. I think I don't care really. You know as Bill says.
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