Denafrips 12 anniversary

My self hav8ng heard a ton of dacs being in New England within 3 hours of5 states and audio get together slots of great electronics ,

to be very honest the T+A 200 dac by many people have bested dacs at $14 k

and it is $7k if you use HQ player,which it has modes built in to mesh well with a Roons build in HQ player option it gets better still.

I am currently saving for this , yes it is better in most every respect to the Holosprings may KTE,or terminator+ 12 anniversary by the fast majority 

this too includes the mola mola ,and Dave dac in the upper $$ range , I was shocked considering the Holo, and Denafrips are 40+ lbs vs 16lbs of the T+A  just a ton of cutting edge technologies.

Odioifyly:

So one is made in China and the other in Germany.  The Denafrips is an R2R ladder DAC which is much more expensive to manufacture and provides the sound I seek on my reference system.  If you love your RME great.  It does not provide the SQ I Seek.  If you want an American made DAC look at the Schiit models. They offer Multi-bit designs that are one step down from true R2R designs.  My desktop DAC/AMP for headphones is a Schiit Jontunheim and I am very pleased with it for the price.  

@alerrico I have the Venus II dac. It is very close to the "Original" Terminator. Alvin Chee said as much. I also have a local friend that had a Pontus II, then a Venus II. He said the Venus was very good. His father bought a Weiss 501 and handed down to him the Terminator version 1 and he told me that they are VERY close. So the Venus is probably very good for the money. I really like mine in my $60K system. It holds it’s own. I hope this helps.

I never hear about the Venus model.  Everyone agrees the Ares is warm and rich and amazing for the money and the Pontus is the sweet spot then everyone jumps right to the Terminator.  Is the Venus too close to the Pontus?  What is the story??

LessLoss is located in Lithuania. That may in part explain their greater presence in the European market. 

@charles1dad Has anyone compared the Lessloss DAC to the Terminator?

@soix 

Not that I’m aware of. I just know that Lessloss is a quality product and feedback regarding their DAC has been very positive. They seem to have a more European than North American penetration.

Charles

@soix ​@charles1dad  I have the LessLoss Echos's End R2R Dac and the LessLoss Firewire 640X in my system and I will tell you it is my end game DAC. It has replaced a a Simaudio 680D and I had gone round and round with all the China DACs and was quite happy with my 680D until I decided to do the in-home demo from Constantine @ LessLoss Echo's End R-2R DAC| Atelier 13 Audio (atelier13-usa.com).

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Construction and build quality are solid, solid wood. 

All the marketing hype here is true. Get a demo done ASAP!! And see if it is right for your system and room. 

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@audioman58 

That's great to hear.  Would you mind elaborating a little on the system(s) you compared those DACs on, and in which ways you feel the T+A 200DAC are better (and is there any area (if at all) you feel the R2R might have an upper hand? 

Just curious to learnt from people who did direct comparison.  Thanks

@charles1dad Has anyone compared the Lessloss DAC to the Terminator?

No doubt that the T+A 200 DAC is receiving much high praise from more and more reviewers. They all seem to be extremely impressed.  Purely based on sonic ground, rather than feature/flexibility it’d be interesting to compare with the Lessloss Echo R2R DAC. Both are said to sound exceptionally well.

Charles 

I listen to a lot of dacs and equipment throughout north east get together I finally found a breakthrough dac highly advanced. And has implementation forHQ player 

through a high end computer and cleans all incoming signals from jitter on. Several levels the T&A 200 Dac   Yes it’s around $7k retail  but vs both the Holo springs May, and terminator 12 th + dac. Thie. T& A dac was better then even my friends Bricasti M1-SE which is excellent , anyone looking for agreat dac witha lot of built in flexibility and great class A preamp  section also and remote ,VUmeters is actually 

a bargain .i am saving for it as we speak , German build Quality , no more China !!

I have had a Terminator Plus since before the price increase and well before the 12th anniversary. For the money, and on an absolute basis, it is a great DAC. That is especially my opinion, if you are into detail. This DAC and my Denafrips Gaia DDC has been dominating the DAC spot in my rig over my Chord DAVE for sometime. I think that says something, at least to me, since this is all about personal taste. As for the 12th anniversary, I have not compared the 12th anniversary version to my DAC. But with the price differential, I think there is likely not enough of a value proposition to upgrade. But for a first time buyer, depending on your budget, it may be worth a shot. Having said that, from my recollection of the reviews, the best performance for the money may come from the Venus. 

The point was the T2 -12 anniversary is $300 more then the old model 

the same should apply to the + model for just the transformer metal type and better board implementation. It’s a good product ,it is Slightly better then the old model a bit warmer nothing much else.,that's the point , until I heard them side b6 side 

Everythung the same you would never know ,only after 3x on certain music  was there a slight difference to some not even a upgrade ,not everyone wanted a warmer presentation with their equipment. If making a SE model where there is a Big difference then I can see paying $$ the extra $1-2k that would make much more sense .

"lordmelton

Yeah, the greed monster is taking over. I’d hold out for the special limited edition 9/999 with gold knobs, personally signed by Metallica or whoever.

Confucius say "When no selly put up pricey".

What an absolutely ridiculous post from someone who clearly knows not what he’s talking about. ’The greed monster’. Anyone who’s ever run a business or come up with an idea how to make something better would never characterize someone making a profit as ’the greed monster’, especially when they’re, realistically speaking, from the greediest, most of the taxed and most grossly overfed country in the world.

And that little WW II ’no ticky no shirty’ thing clearly shows we’re dealing with a real ’superior’ and worldly thinker.

“Not saying anything is junk?..you said it was garbage if we are being exact...you got called out and now your trying to back track on all the foolishness you wrote..”

Missiongoonery…. I never said that, read the post. I quoted someone.  

@jjss49  I agree with your two previous posts.  Generalization and bashing of Chinese products and MAGA individuals does nothing for the real conversation which should be is the new edition really worth the cost.  DAC's are different and varied in topology, sonics and individual listening satisfaction.  I personally have a Terminator+ that I purchased over a year ago and it is a wonderful, dynamic and detailed DAC with connection flexibility.  The build quality isn't cheap by ANY standards, and I believe I received great value and listening satisfaction.  Some listeners prefer the Delta/Sigma type DAC's while others prefer the R-2R's and no up-sampling or digital filtering.  If this same DAC was built in the U.S., it would probably cost at least 3X as much or more.  There are thousands of Denafrips DAC's out there and the noise level on they're being inferior in build, sonics or reliability quality to my knowledge just isn't there. Let's keep our discussions to comparing costs against measurable parameters or value, and not where the product is made.  

$6500 - $ 7500 ?   That is egregious,  especially for what it cost them to build.  It’s the definition of greed 

While I agree that the price of the Denafrips 12th Anniv Terminator Plus is a little over the top, I don’t understand why people think it’s greed. Since when did greed in a free market economy become a bad thing? The right price for anything in the free market is what the customer is willing to pay based only on supply and demand.

Apparently, a lot of customers are happily paying $6.5K for the regular Terminator Plus. Not only that, customers are willing to pay top dollar for even used Denafrips units. What does that tell us about the quality and reputation of this company.

Or are we saying that only manufacturers in the western world have the right to charge exorbitant amounts for their gear (most of which is made in China anyways)? Didn’t realize only certain countries have the right to make high profits.

Oh boy.............

c’mon guys this is getting rather moronic

would you like an american made cellphone over a chinese or korean made one? well i am sure you do, but there aren’t any! that’s because the american high tech manufacturing industry can’t compete

chinese auto making/componentry/assembly is low on the learning curve, so of course you wouldn’t want a chinese car today, any more than you would’ve wanted a german car in 1950 or japanese car in 1970, but 40-50-60 years later, things completely change right?  it is called industrial development, industrial competence and experience

let’s get a grip...

Not saying anything is junk?..you said it was garbage if we are being exact...you got called out and now your trying to back track on all the foolishness you wrote..

Chinese people don't even want Chinese cars. At least that's the way it was when I lived there 8 years ago. Things may have changed. 

Not saying anything is junk , but most of it is way overpriced.    I used the RME as an example because it’s packed with technology and affordable 

would you rather have a German car or a Chinese car?  

Why are we even comparing RME with Denafrips' most expensive dac? A more appropriate comparison is between RME and Denafrips Ares II dac which sells for roughly $850. I have owned both and will take the Ares every time. 

I have owned three Denafrips dacs to date -- started with Ares II, moved up to Pontus II, and currently own Terminator 2. I bought the Ares II for $850 and sold it for $725 after three months since I wanted to move up the chain. I then bought a used Pontus II for $1600 and believe it or not sold it for $1600 after a couple of months. There are very few brands that retain their value as well as Denafrips. The market has spoken and it says that this brand is considered excellent value and not garbage by any stretch of the imagination.

too bad this thread is taking a turn towards hate

everyone should check their assumptions at the door if you haven’t worked in china, dealt with chinese businesses, sourced from china, especially in more sophisticated, technology-based goods

what we are saying here is akin to western europeans saying americans are all dumb, fat, lacking any sophistication ... well that may be true, but only sometimes, and most importantly, it simply shows how gross generalizations just create heat and no light, it offers nothing constructive to the discussion

if one thinks china made is stuff is garbage then please throw away your iphone, ipad, computer, memory cards/hard drives, household lighting, appliances, wiring.... you get my drift

Oddiofyl....I can see how readers are seeing your  post as kind of  coming off  somewhat racist,IMO.Your one step from wearing a MAGA hat.For you to say all Chinese made gear is garbage is foolish at best..Just stop it. There are tons of Denafrips owners on this site that really like or love their units.The Holo DACs are very nice,the spring 3 level 3 for the money being one of them.Very tough finding a used one and even the May is hard to find on the secondary market.The new Pontus at its price point is great,and if one buys  on the used market forgetaboutit,Ive owned all three...The resale on all of them is fantastic so id say that overrides your assessment of Chinese gear is garbage!

“Chifi trying to get US manufacturers prices for garbage. I’d never buy any audio equipment made in China. What garbage. “

Anyone who has ever been in the biz knows what a $6000 Chinese DAC costs to build. About 1/10 it’s price  If that    $600 US is a lot and covers parts and labor  

There is a huge amount of profit, Denafrips has a number of price points to fully exploit this .    
 

It’s just a guess but I believe that $7500 DAC costs less than $800  to manufacture parts and labor are cheap so it’s easy to do 

No way I’m spending that kind of money on stuff made in China.   

How can RME build such a good DAC in Germany and sell it for $1200 ?  They make money, distributor makes money,  end point of sale makes money… still it’s a great DAC.    Two reasons , they are pro audio and aren’t caught up on Audiophoolery .   That’s it.  They could have easily put it in a rack width unit and charged “ audiophiles” twice as much.   Food for thought. 

 

Coming from China, have you all checked your Denafrips does not contain spyware?  They can package it very small and hide it carefully.

Yep.

Very partial to my LessLoss DAC built in Lithuania gorgeous sound and craftsmanship. 
 

https://www.lessloss.com/echos-end-p-218.html

@Jerry123… 

there ya go. 

Chifi trying to get US manufacturers prices for garbage. I’d never buy any audio equipment made in China. What garbage. 

I owned the Terminator 2 excellent dac ,the new 22th addition s bit warmer sounding slightly bigger soundstage and a hair more resolution 

I bought the Bricasti M3 for its streamer dac aspect which is very clean sounding and detailed , the Terminator 2 is a bit better , their M1SE has many filters and is noticeably better then even the Terminator+ , and  will most likely be my new dac,streamer ,my brothers friend is a dealer so getting 25% off makes it very attractive.and great resale if I want to go up to the M21 .

Yeah, the greed monster is taking over. I'd hold out for the special limited edition 9/999 with gold knobs, personally signed by Metallica or whoever.

Confucius say "When no selly put up pricey".

While one’s impressions regarding sound quality can be subjective, but one thing you cannot deny is that Denafrips build quality inside out is on par with the best out there. They sell a lot of DACs and I have yet to hear too many complaints when it comes to quality or longevity. This is the first time I have heard anyone accusing them of using cheap chinese caps and micro skipping. Most reviewers who have opened up the box are impressed with the quality of parts inside.

The Terminator 2 that I own is built like a tank (weighs 42 lbs., not that it necessarily implies higher quality) and sounds pretty darn good. I had the Merason on loan for 2-3 weeks and really liked it too. It leans more towards the romantic, warm side ... similar to the Luxman DA-06 that I owned as well. But I’m sorry the build quality is just not that great. The Terminator 2, while not as warm or romantic, IMO performs at a higher level. The retrieval of micro-details, soundstage width and depth is amazing.

I have also owned Denafrips Aries II and Pontus II. I agree that Pontus is the sweet spot in their line up. But comparing the Pontus next to Terminator 2 made it clear that the T2 offers more of everything. I don’t think the difference is night and day, but enough (at least in my case) to justify the higher price.

Wow! That’s impressive hearing 1st hand instead of a reviewer. Better grab one before the price goes up as I’m sure it will. You have me contemplating ordering one to compare with my Musician Aquarius. If better sell the Aquarius and come out ahead. 
 

 I will say the R26 internal pics looks pretty damn impressive. 
 

Last year I was sucked into buying the Pontus Before the 12/17/21 price hike.

I did. Guess what. No hike. They have the game down. I sold the damn thing

and broke even. No more Denafrips for this buyer.

while we share the sentiment, i also feel there is no need to throw a baby out with bathwater

i believe the pontus, for ~1500 bucks used, is an excellent dac, outstanding build quality, lovely spacious well embodied sound with just a subtle grain heard on only the most resolving systems... there is always something new coming out in the dac market, this gustard r2r thing, the musetec thing, whatever...

but despite my dislike for the commercial behavior of denafrips and their sales channel, let’s please not lose sight of the fact that the pontus will make a lot of people very happy in how it makes digital music sound very good

@kairosman ,

have you heard the R26 and it’s really that good? 
 

thanks

What Denafrips failed to see is that China labor costs are 4-5x less 

and they still want To read the higher $$ 

if anything with thus current economy they should have went up 10% at most 

Yes now that we have a Gustard R26 for $1600 that sounds as good or better than my Terminator II, will Denafrips be forced to up its game in the lower price bracket gear war to stay competitive, or does it go upscale and try to compete with Chord or even MSB? I think in many ways it would be easier to use better parts and tighter tolerances etcetera than having to innovate and cost cut...

@jl1ny 

The Lampi sounded gorgeous but for the money I cannot get past the DIY build quality. The Dave left me scratching my head, how it has attained stardom is beyond my comprehension. 

In this scenario  I’ll opt for “sounded gorgeous “ every time. It seems there’s no middle ground with the Chord Dave. People either find them fantastic or highly over rated and overpriced. With DACs there’s genuinely something for everyone.

Charles

Last year I was sucked into buying the Pontus Before the 12/17/21 price hike.

I did. Guess what. No hike. They have the game down. I sold the damn thing

and broke even. No more Denafrips for this buyer.

just to be clear, my problem with denafrips and their direct selling partners is the greed aspect... they already have direct sales, zero dealers in usa and europe, yet they are doing all the crass marketing gimmicks which smacks of harvesting their customer base on the higher end given their recently established market recognition -- this has nothing to do with the fact they are chinese, it has everything to do with how they are playing the game

i suggest to folks to get a pontus, stop there, that is value sweet spot in everything they sell, don't get sucked into higher products, ddc's to make the dacs sound right, all that nonsense

Guess I’m dim Jerry. I don’t see anything wrong? 

No refund or possibility of demo?  Of course it sounds great, you're stuck with it.... $7500 Chinese DACs are a good value?    C'mon.   There is about $7k profit built into that price.  Nothing racist , it's called capitalism.   Stop with the woke and wake up....

Really? Okay.

@jerryg123 ,

where is the racist rant you speak of? 

Plenty written on this ....