Demos - To Charge a Fee or to Not Charge a Fee?

I wonder how many times somebody has walked into a dealer and asked to audition half a dozen or so full-range, big, heavy, loudspeakers, taking a great deal of time and effort for the dealer, only to be told "I like that one - now I'll go online to see if I can find a used one or one on sale!". My guess is that it's happened more than a few times, and some have then set up auditioning surcharges to reduce or eliminate this kind of being stiffed in time and effort by the 'customer'

It’s completely accurate,

No it’s not.

You wrote:

the people who will have a big problem with this are the bungholes who want to use the dealer services for free and then buy off the internet.

But I have a problem with it becoming routine to pay simply to hear gear at a dealer, yet I don’t fit the description of someone who is dicking around dealers in the way you just described.


And I don’t think I’m that unusual. None of my audiophile friends are the "bungholes" you describe, but I bet they wouldn’t think it a good idea for dealers to start routinely charging for customers to hear anything in their showroom.


You shouldn’t forget there are two parts to the equation here. Yes, audiophiles may be grateful if there is a dealer nearby where they can hear gear.


On the other hand, the customer is taking time out of his own day to bring himself TO the business. It’s not like the business owner has to haul his ass over to the customer’s house.  It's the other way around.


If I’m running a business I damn well would be thankful that customers are making the trip to my store! Best to have something to show them.


Now...of course there are crappy customers, just like there are crappy salesmen. But that doesn’t in of itself warrant charging everyone to hear the things you are trying to sell.


Again: where else does this occur that makes it a good idea in reality?

If a dealer is willing to go 20+% off list I will consider buying from them. Most of the time they do IME. I would likely pay a fee to hear something I was really interested in so I would feel like a dick if I bought it used or elsewhere for a much better price. 
On the other hand I get Prof’s point. Where is this actually done in reality? I think it would turn a lot of people off from the dealer. 

My gear was purchased almost exclusively used. At one point I was very interested in purchasing the small Harbeths. Brand new was out of my budget,so they would be purchased on the used market. I just couldn't go to the local dealer,and pretend he might make a sale. That's not my style.  

Here’s a question for the gang:

A dealer has a product you want to audition, say speakers.

You generally work on the principle that if you audition gear at the dealers premises, you’d buy from the dealer, not go somewhere else.
BUT...

You have a really crappy audition experience at the dealer.


We’ve all had some really bad audio salesmen experiences right?

Here’s a couple of mine:

Local dealer had a speaker line I was very interested in possibly purchasing. I showed up, system was essentially already set up so no effort from the salesmen. Big store, virtually no other customers there (I purposely went at a dead time). As I’m listening I note that the salesmen are just standing about, not having to do anything as there aren’t any other customers. Yet about 20 minutes in to my audition tracks, once of the salesman walks over, turns down my music, and starts giving me the hard sell - "well, what’s it going to be? What is your decision? Are you walking out with these today?" No more listening, it was just pushy, pushy "buy now or not, your listening is over."

I left furious not having been able to get a good idea of whether I wanted the speaker or not.

Another:

Ended up in a small room listening to some speakers. Second-In-Command audio salesman has accompanied me and proceeds to talk ENDLESSLY about the speakers and everything else as I’m trying to listen. I can’t concentrate on a thing. I’m hoping he’s going to stop, but he never does. Eventually I ask as politely as possible "I wonder if it’s possible I could listen alone just for a little bit. I find it helps me concentrate best."

The guy left in a huff. Clearly went to tell his boss. The Boss comes in with a sort of "So you think you can mess with us?" smirk, pulls up a chair and sits directly behind me, making occaisional remarks. Clearly a passive agressive move that ruined the experience.


So...whadya do? Do you still feel you still "owe" such places your business if you end up wanting the item you heard?

Do you reward crappy salesmen or bad experiences with your business?

Can someone please explain on what basis my post would have been removed, where I asked a question that included a description of some poor dealer experiences (without even naming the dealers?).

It violated precisely none of the guidelines for posting on the forum.

Maybe I’m being thick at the moment, but I can’t even imagine the justification for the removal.

prof

Can someone please explain on what basis my post would have been removed ...

Yes. The moderators can answer your question. Reach out to them with the Contact Us link.

Ah, I included a profanity in the post. My bad.

ETA:  It's been reposted with the bad word removed.  Cheers.

prof

You have a really crappy audition experience at the dealer ... salesman walks over, turns down my music, and starts giving me the hard sell - "well, what’s it going to be? What is your decision? Are you walking out with these today?" No more listening, it was just pushy ... Another: ... audio salesman has accompanied me and proceeds to talk ENDLESSLY about the speakers and everything else as I’m trying to listen. I can’t concentrate on a thing. ... The guy left in a huff ... The Boss comes in with a sort of "So you think you can mess with us?" smirk, pulls up a chair and sits directly behind me, making occaisional remarks. Clearly a passive agressive ...
So...whadya do? Do you still feel you still "owe" such places your business if you end up wanting the item you heard?
Do you reward crappy salesmen or bad experiences with your business?

I don't think I owe anybody my business. Rather, they have to earn it and once they do, I'm a pretty loyal customer. I walk out of stores (audio or otherwise) where I'm not treated well.

I think if you pay for an audition you've got a strong basis for asking to be left alone.  Otherwise it's an uncomfortable situation where the dealer fears he's being taken advantage of and is antsy about it.  Why not arrange an agreeable transaction ahead of time?  X dollars for an hour of listening while being left alone.  Then everyone's on the same page.  I'm not saying this would work, just that it makes a lot of sense in audio.

How about 9.25% off if you ask nothing but the price if it’s not clearly posted.

@prof ,
"We’ve all had some really bad audio salesmen experiences right?

Here’s a couple of mine:

Local dealer had a speaker line I was very interested in possibly purchasing. I showed up, system was essentially already set up so no effort from the salesmen. Big store, virtually no other customers there (I purposely went at a dead time). As I’m listening I note that the salesmen are just standing about, not having to do anything as there aren’t any other customers. Yet about 20 minutes in to my audition tracks, once of the salesman walks over, turns down my music, and starts giving me the hard sell - "well, what’s it going to be? What is your decision? Are you walking out with these today?" No more listening, it was just pushy, pushy "buy now or not, your listening is over."

I left furious not having been able to get a good idea of whether I wanted the speaker or not.

Another:

Ended up in a small room listening to some speakers. Second-In-Command audio salesman has accompanied me and proceeds to talk ENDLESSLY about the speakers and everything else as I’m trying to listen. I can’t concentrate on a thing. I’m hoping he’s going to stop, but he never does. Eventually I ask as politely as possible "I wonder if it’s possible I could listen alone just for a little bit. I find it helps me concentrate best."

The guy left in a huff. Clearly went to tell his boss. The Boss comes in with a sort of "So you think you can mess with us?" smirk, pulls up a chair and sits directly behind me, making occaisional remarks. Clearly a passive agressive move that ruined the experience."


Your unfortunate experiences clearly highlight the need to examine the finer details before trying out a new idea of strategy.

The last thing we’d want is for unscrupulous dealers to exploit this proposal by profiting this concept of a demo charge.

As @jon_5912 said,
"I think if you pay for an audition you’ve got a strong basis for asking to be left alone.

Otherwise it’s an uncomfortable situation where the dealer fears he’s being taken advantage of and is antsy about it.

Why not arrange an agreeable transaction ahead of time?

X dollars for an hour of listening while being left alone."


I am also one of those that would prefer to be mostly left alone during a demonstration. It can be quite stressful whilst you’re in that hinterland between ’yay and nay’.

[To think, once upon a time there used to be listening booths where you could listen at leisure to 45s and LPs in private before deciding which ones to buy].

In any case, this proposal to charge a demo fee should be an attempt to improve relations between customer and dealer, not worsen them.

Having clear terms beforehand could help here.

Removing or at least alleviating the time/cost pressure of a store demo for the dealer (or the transportation work of a home demo) would seem to be a good idea.

Surely it’s better to try to find some way of improving things than they currently stand?

Selling is a cost of doing business. I am in construction and spend a large part of my time bidding on jobs that I don't get. If I charged for estimates, my prospective clients would call someone else to quote . The cost is made up on the sales that are made.

@blue-magoo,

Fair enough, but bear in mind that Hi-Fi dealers are rather thin on the ground these days whereas builders and plumbers are not.

Unless it's Christmas, or a Sunday.

Maybe the real problem is that audiophiles are also rather thin on the ground in these difficult days?

Anyway it's pretty important that we either retain brick and mortar dealers, or we still have plenty of shows we can easily attend.
Speaking of which, after 2 years I finally got to go to another audio show.

This time the UK Audio Show was held at the De Vere Staverton Estate near Daventry, some 60 miles north of London.

Highlights for me included the EJ Jordan Marlows. These metal coned bookshelves were driven by a pair of Nagra tape decks. An astonishingly capable and vivid sound for something this unprepossessing.

I'd never heard any Kudos loudspeakers before but the sizeable Titan 707s certainly made up for the wait. A muscular yet tonally expressive sound made for a rare combination. Many large speakers I've heard tend to get somewhat bleached out amidst the dramatics, not the Titans.

The Kerr K320s, now in their 3rd iteration, sounded as masterful as ever. Perched on what looked like some Townsend speaker bars they sounded progressively more like a reference loudspeaker than ever.

The active Monopulse S were also as good as I recalled. If anybody wanted a speaker that could sound great from just their smartphone/tablet/laptop etc (no other amps /sources required) this would be it.

Finally a mention for the unusual looking Vitavox speakers. Not anything that would catch your ear immediately, but after a short time it became increasingly apparent that here was something different.

The sheer absence of any perceived harshness (or grain if you prefer), was very enticing. You really could listen to these for a very, very long time indeed.

They seemed to make other designs sound harsh by comparison. If you ever wanted a speaker to totally eradicate listener fatigue, this might be it.

As a show bonus we got to hear Russell Kaufman of Russell K loudspeakers give a lecture on how he builds loudspeakers from assembling the drive units by ear, then the cabinets, then the crossovers up.

The demonstration included direct comparisons between different drivers, and contrary to what I'd been led to believe, there were quite significant differences between them. The ribbon tweeter in particular, sounded quite different to the dome in this instance.
Many thanks to all concerned, especially the organiser Roy Bird for all of his stirling efforts in overcoming what must be unprecedented levels of difficulty.

The standard seemed unusually high this year, there just didn't seem to be many headache inducing rooms as I've sometimes found in the past. Credit to all those concerned.


There's some good photos up on the HiFi Pig website courtesy of James Starbuck.

https://hifipig.com/uk-audio-show-2021-photos/

Selling is a cost of doing your business but auditioning is a service provided by a dealer.  It's a service that can be separated from the transaction.  When a person auditions a product at a dealer and then buys it off of the internet, they're separating those two things.  It's different from construction because all construction companies have to accept the cost of selling.  Not all audio dealers do.  Imagine if you could somehow transfer the cost of selling to your competition and use that advantage to undercut them for the actual sale.  That's a broken system.

@jon_5912,

A timely clarification.

That’s the problem here.

Just how does a dealer compete with the internet?

Or is all retail as we know it, ultimately doomed?

Not that long ago I wanted to buy some Adidas training shoes. They had to be all black, have non memory foam inner soles, be breathable /cool to wear, and look reasonably smart.

I found some online and then looked to see where I could buy some in-store as I couldn’t imagine buying shoes without trying them on first.

In the end I had to, as the nearest store was some 19 miles away.

I wasn’t too pleased about this but thankfully they fitted really well.

I’m definitely not one of those people who doesn’t mind the extra hassle of returning things, but who knows, maybe even that will have to change as in-store options continue to diminish at their current rate?

Some of these audio stores are boutiques.  I think if you are considering a charge to listen, you probably should go to an appointment only business.  That way, you can filter out people that are tire kickers and deal mostly with buyers by asking the right questions when setting the appointment.

if that’s not the type of dealer you are, then you are best to take the good with the bad.  Unfortunately, we have a bunch selfish people in the world who will take advantage of someone, if they can.  That is part of your business model.

My philosophy is to plan on buying from the dealer if I plan on using their resources for evaluation/listening.  I also do not expect a discount when I do.  If I expect a discount, then, I’m not going to use someone resources unless I talk about it upfront.

Now, if you do an in-home setup, I think it’s reasonable to state your charges upfront.