Dedicated power circuits

If I had a power system being installed I would look at the Torus All in One:

 

If you are already going with the Cutler Hammond brand I would checkout adding a Sorcer Apprentice at the breaker box:

Sorcer Apprentice

The Apprentice also changes the quality of the AC line starting from the circuit breaker box throughout the home or commercial space. It does not employ filters, isolation transformers, AC line regeneration, nor balanced power techniques. This harmonic resonator uses small line transformers connected in series along with proprietary digital amplifier circuitry under algorithm control. The AC line is "re-referenced" or pulsed with low frequency harmonics to increase the S/N ratio.  Uses 4 AC transformers.   

• 110/220 VAC 50/60 Hz
• Installs at AC breaker panel or near audio/video system components
• Dimensions: 17" x 11" x 3.0"
• Weight: 22 lbs.
•  

You can send this video to your electrician for review:

 

As for the receptacles I like pangea:

 

Hello @gphill , Here is what I know or think I know.

Receptacles: Use an audiophile grade outlet.  I used PS Audio, reasonable and grip great.  I hear mixed reviews about the expensive outlets; some like them some do not.

Wire: 10 gauge.  The electrician will tell you 12 is fine for 20 amp outlet.  Use 10. Sounds better.( I have been told by someone I believe).

Breaker:  I went standard here, but did use some silver conductive grease when installing.

I think dedicated circuits are very worthwhile, and you are correct; one for the amp and one for the front end / digital.

My final advice:  Run three.  do it now while easy.  You never know...monoblock amps, other stuff.  Ask me how I know this!

Thanks for all the responses. The Torus all in one looks interesting but at 18k it ain’t happening. Because of local code I’m going to have to use tamper resistant outlets which I will replace after the job is finished. Any special wire from the breaker box to the outlets? Any special breakers?

@gphill Wrote:

 Any special wire from the breaker box to the outlets? 

For dedicated audio lines I would go with Type MC Galvanized Steel Metal Clad Cable 10 AWG. It has better EMI and EF shielding versus aluminum armor. FWIW, I have four dedicated lines for audio, one for each monoblock amp, one for analog and one for digital. 😎

Here is a good article on the subject. See below:

Mike

https://docs.google.com/viewerng/viewer?url=https://wirexpress.com/wp-content/uploads/MidAtlantic-White-Paper.pdf

Cutler Hammer is now Eaton, whose products are available everywhere. Use hospital grade outlets for your audio. These outlets have a tighter grip on the prongs of the power cord which is much more effective preventing noise from entering than whatever gimmick those $500 receptacles claim.

If you have a Federal or anything with a stab-lock breaker you 100% need to get rid of them!

CH, Siemens and Square D all make solid equipment.  I have a couple of notes for you:

• I prefer the whole house surge protectors that sit on the panel like a breaker.  They have less wiring and therefore better chances of working with faster surges.
• All whole house surge protectors and the NEC recommend that you use individual surge protectors on sensitive electronics IN ADDITION to the whole house units.
• Remember your home outlets must be tamper resistant too. Several boutique, cryo, blah blah outlets are not.
• Use Furman surge protectors with SMP/LiFT to protect your gear.
• Use a hospital grade Ethernet isolator to protect your network.

The Torus all in one looks interesting but at 18k it ain’t happening.

I get that, look at the Sorcer Apprentice from Add-Power- I think it around $2K

 

Try get all runs on the same leg in the breaker box. Otherwise, you could run into hum issues.

Yes all the lines on the same.leg. also.make sure the.lines are the exact same length  Also cross the wires over a few.times on the way to the outlets. I like the bad boy furutech  plugs I run both hold and rhodium  I have six dedicated  20 amp circuits  to my stereo 

Yes all the lines on the same.leg. also.make sure the.lines are the exact same length  Also cross the wires over a few.times on the way to the outlets. I like the bad boy furutech  plugs I run both hold and rhodium  I have six dedicated  20 amp circuits  to my stereo 

@retiredfarmer what do you mean by crossing the wires? I would separate them apart as far as possible.

@invalid  well the worst  is running  parallel  close together.  

I have done what you are proposing.  I ran 3 ten gauge copper  legs off a panel box  using  3 panel slots each with a 20 amp square D breakers. and the panel  box had  a  whole home surge protector.  At the terminal end I used hospital grade 4 outlet  receptables  on the left and right  and a center 2 outlet box.  The only thing I ran thru the center was my power amp, with an a tripplite surge protector between .the  wall and the power amp

The left and right outlets  with 4 inputs  accommodated  all my other gear, phono pre-amp , two active sub woofers , turntable,, TV,, CD player, router, lamp, blue ray disc player, record cleaner   etcetera   

I was amazed at the difference the current to the power amp made. 

TV s and power amps will have the greatest draw.   

 

Thanks again for everyone’s help and advice. Joem2 what you did is what I’m planning. Did you you use any kind of special wire? I’m assuming you just used normal 20 amp breakers.

@ditusa 

Please explain why MC Galvanized Steel Metal Clad Cable. A metal conduit is not required to meet code in this situation. And cost will be higher than Romex 10/2.

Battery backup and dedicated inverter for home office and audio..

Power always comes from a “cached” source, untroubled by the utility company..

well, unless ya cannot get them charged..

 

@invalid  say you have two lines a foot apart  through the studs every couple of stud spaces the  top wire goes through the bottom hole and the bottom  wire hoes through the top whole 

FWIW, I use a single run of 8 gauge terminating in a 4 x 20amp distribution box of hospital-grade Hubble receptacles. Keeps it simple.

Many will tell you anything beyond 12 AWG is overkill. Including electricians and people on these boards. But for the small amount of extra $ over 12 AWG, why not. Electricians may not like working with 10 AWG because it’s a bit stiffer, but it’s certainly doable. I used Shunyata receptacles, one feeding my Torus RM20.

If you are getting electrical work done for the dedicated lines, there is a lot of simple layout things you can do to improve your sound quality, as I learned by working with @kingrex.

He does this for a living, and helped improve Michael Fremer of Stereophile’s household wiring alongside Garth Powell of Audioquest. Not sure if he wants his name associated with his username otherwise I’d link the writeup on Stereophile - I’d suggest reaching out to him. All costs to implement his fixes were relatively low, and he worked remotely with my on-site electricians to ensure things were done right.

I can easily hear an improvement with the dedicated lines over my old lines which are still there as a reference.

Run each outlet in its own conduit directly to the box.  We use conduit in Chicago. 12 or 10 is fine for 20amp. I prefer stranded wire over solid. Any breaker box with copper busses is fine. I like the audioquest line of receptacles. They are well made and grip like the dickens. Also, I recommend the whole house surge protector that mounts right next to the panel. Just about everyone on this thread is spot on. Good luck. 
 

I'm am beginning the process of building a new house and I have been researching this topic over the last year. As you have likely figured out from this thread, there is no consensus about the best practices for electrical design for an audio system and a couple of my comments are in conflict with earlier responses, but here goes.

First of all I highly recommend reviewing the articles and videos from Michael Fremer regarding his electrical power experience. The links are: Fremer Electrical Video and Analog Corner Power.

Separate Audio Panel - I'm going to use the system from AudioUltra (Seattle) AudioUltra for a separate panel for my stereo room. This is fairly expensive but it's not too bad for new construction. I met both the Kingrex people and the AudioUltra people at last year's Pacific Audio Fest (they had separate booths/rooms) and I believe that they make their own panels. I talked to Rex Hungerford for quite a while and I came away with the impression that he is catering to folks that are a whole nuther level of OCD about their systems than I am. The guy from AudioUlta (I think it was DeVito) was much more down to earth and more my speed.

BTW - There are no heroic features to my current electrical setup and my system sounds outstanding. I do run a dedicated 20 amp circuit for my Krell KSA300S but the other gear is on a shared 15 amp circuit.

10 gauge wire - I've been told by several experienced people that for typical run lengths 10 gauge wire will not provide any benefits over 12 gauge. The only benefit you might receive from 10 gauge is if you have a very long run and the 10 gauge might present a slightly lower voltage drop. In my case my panel will be quite close to my outlets so I'm going with 12 gauge wire and 20 amp outlets.

Special outlets - I met Caelin Gabriel from Shunyata at the 2019 AXPONA during a slow period in the room and he was very friendly and generous with his time. The subject of electrical outlets came up and he told me that hospital grade outlets were not suitable for audio use. They are made from stainless steel and are designed to prevent corrosion from the strong cleaning chemicals that a hospital uses. They do not transfer electricity as good as a copper outlet. He said to only use outlets with copper hardware and he said that for a reasonable cost the best outlets are made by Hubbel such as the HBL5623W for 20 amp outlets. I took his advice and replaced my 20 amp outlet with this model. I don't think I heard any difference but it makes me happy.

I'm fortunate that we have our own transformer which is right next to the new house so our incoming power should be excellent. I am not going to go with any kind of power supply filtering or processing between the transformer, panel, and the outlets. I have tried a couple of power conditioners in my present setup and I have not heard a noticeable effect.

I'm going to have an emergency generator and I'm depending on AudioUltra to insure that I don't get the same problem that Fremer had. Having a dedicated panel for the audio room should completely solve that.

And finally, a philosophical note about electrical codes. I'm no electrician but I have had a lot of experience with construction and I have come to believe that electrical codes are carefully researched and very robust. You can have a run of about 57 feet on a 20 amp circuit (at full 20 amp draw) with an acceptable voltage drop of 3.6 volts. If you go with 10 gauge wire that goes up to about 71 feet. 10 gauge won't hurt anything but unless you've got very long runs it's doubtful that you would ever hear a difference.

Good luck and please report back on what you install and how it sounds.

Recommendations for power receptacles from a previous post of mine

"I do HIGHLY suggest quality recepticles (not just hospital grade). Furutech GTX-D is what I am running right now, butt also had great sound from Oyaide R1 (NOT the SWO series), Cardas, and PS Audio...though the PS Audio is the worst of the lot, but still an improvement."

I ‘ve 3 same lenght dedicated lines.

Easy to install, more if you’re - congrats- building something new.

A Doepke 3P circuit breaker and protection switch with an N common pole and 3?line Oyaide Tunami V2 cable 

-1 feeds the Atmasphere MA-1 AMP

-1 feeding Soundlab U-545 SPEAKERS

-1 feeding sources

The result is wonderful, the punch and crystal sound, speed and image is making me enjoy music.

Hope this can help. I don’t know how to insert some images, sorry

 

 

I installed a sub panel with 6/3 w/ground to the room with a 65 amp breaker in the main panel. Then I pulled off a 240v-20a for the big amps and a couple of 120v 20a circuits for the wall outlets, 120v 15a for lights. That way, instantaneous power draw could be very high with nearly no drop in voltage. Future proofing. 

@8th-note,

.

 

~ ~

Is this what you are looking to buy? You do know it is 120/240V? Best practices is to feed audio equipment, (that is connected together by wire ICs), is to feed the 120V equipment from branch circuit breakers fed from same Line. All from Line 1 or all from Line 2. Not from both.

 

You mentioned Michael Fremer’s new electrical service. All his audio equipment is fed from one 120V Line. I have no idea how big his total load is though. Just a guess a lot more than yours.

.

 

 

 

~ ~

I watched the video again today and picked up a few things I missed the first two previous times. I believe there are a few things worth noting.

Near the end of the video Fremer shows the new sub panel for his audio room. It is fed 120V only. *(1)* Electrical Inspector did make the electrician install the other 120V hot conductor. It will not be used though. I think it was just an AHJ Inspector thing. I couldn’t find anything in the NEC that requires it.)

Note the 120V feeder for the sub panel is installed in PVC conduit. All the branch circuit wiring is installed in non metallic flexible conduit.

Example, non metallic flexible conduit:

1/2-in x 25-ft Ultratite Non-metallic Schedule 80 Liquid-tight Conduit

From what I could see the outlet boxes are also non ferrous as well as the outlet cover plates. I did see something I didn’t agree with though. Two dedicated circuits for the two mono amps were pulled in the same raceway, conduit. That doesn’t follow best practices. I did notice though the 120V Hot, Neutral, and Ground branch circuit wiring used for each 120V circuit was apparently tightly twisted together. That would be a whole lot better than if single conductors for both dedicated circuits were all pulled loosely together in the conduit. That definitely is a no, no. A sure way to induce an AC voltage onto the equipment grounding conductors and cause ground loop hum.

Image of audio room sub panel, front cover removed. Note the two 120V dedicated circuits bottom right side of panel in the flex conduit connector.

.

 

.

/ / / /

 

Not to bad mouth the electrician. He may have had his reasons... I did notice a few things on the installation of the new electrical service I didn’t care for.

The use of a rigid no-thread coupling on the Mast rigid Conduit. (Yeah it meets code. But...)

The use of the offset nipple into the top of the meter socket enclosure hub. Not pretty...

And I found myself scratching my head why the electrician used PVC conduit nipple from the bottom of the meter socket enclosure to the Myers Hub on the main service equipment panel. A galvanized rigid nipple would have looked a lot better, jmho... As well as electrically bonding the two metal enclosures together.

 

/ / /

 

*(1)* Electrical Inspector did make the electrician install the other 120V hot conductor.

I have a friend in Texas that has a 15KVA 240V to 120V single phase pad mount outdoors isolation transformer strictly for feeding his two channel audio room equipment. The electrician only installed one, Hot, neutral, and ground, conductor to feed the 120V only electrical panel. The electrical inspector made the electrician add the additional spare conductor for the other hot Line, ( for future), not used, not connected.

.

@lowrider57 Wrote:

@ditusa

Please explain why MC Galvanized Steel Metal Clad Cable. A metal conduit is not required to meet code in this situation. And cost will be higher than Romex 10/2.

The MC Galvanized Steel Metal Clad cable provides better shielding versus 10/2 Romex, in my opinion the benefits outweigh the extra cost of the MC which is minimal. The advantage of MC cable is low line noise and reduced antenna effect on AC dedicated branch circuits feeding your audio equipment. Also, I prefer to use metal boxes with MC cable, not plastic, they both meet code but if shielding is not important then the 10/2 Romex with plastic boxes will be more then adequate. I just try to get the most out of my audio system as I can with minimal cost. 😎 See MC cable below: Hope that helps

FWIW: Another reason for multiple circuits besides dedicated power see my previous post below:

ditusa

1,073 posts

12-20-2022 at 08:35pm

 

@jea48Wrote:

Probably the biggest reason for installing more than one Dedicated Branch Circuit is to decouple the power supplies of audio equipment from one another. Example digital source(s) equipment from analog equipment.

I agree!

That was one of the reasons I ran four 60’ runs of galvanized steel armored MC cable 10AWG. That’s four true dedicated branch circuits, one for each mono block amp, one for analog and one for digital. It helps to reduce noise on the AC lines, by reducing the amount of transformers and power supplies on each circuit. Also, the MC helps to reduce hashing noise EMI, and electric fields, on the dedicated branch circuits feeding your audio equipment. You don’t realize how much hashing noise is on the AC lines, until it’s reduced. No ground loop hum. No noise. System is dead quiet with ear against speaker horn, I have tube and SS amps. (The efficiency of my speakers is 2.7% sensitivity 96dB). 😎

Mike

 

@ditusa 

Thanks for the detailed explanation. I'm using two identical runs from 20A breakers, one for analogue and one digital. Tube amp plugged into wall. Audio system is only 20' from panel so I used 12/2 Romex. No ground loop, no RFI (tested with a meter).

ditusa,

Your installation is almost identical with mine. I'm running 10/3 MC 240v. A 20 amp circuit dedicated to each mono block, 20 amp circuit for pre amp, and a 20 amp circuit for digital. All galvanized gang boxes. 

I desigbed and build that all in one AudioUltra panel.  I have modified it since inception.  It can't be beat when installed  in the right application.  That application is on a wall between monoblock amps and subs.  I don't use a power cord.  Its bolted directly to a feeder wire and capable of passing 225 amps. 

 

An all in one Torus distribution is great, but not so great.  Its a better suited product in recording studios where many have been installed.  There are much better ways to integrate a Torus in a residence. 

I had to have the second phase run at Fremers because I could not get a letter from SqD  saying a Square D subpanrl rated 120/240 was suitable for 120 only.  In response to this, I manufacture a 225A all copper panel with a UL label rated for 120 volt only.   Yes you only use one phase. 

I went back to Fremers and changed out that panel in the image above. .  I now rework those SqD QO MLO 125 to 200A subpanels with damping compounds and install all copper neutrals and grounds.  Its a shockingly good panel for the money when rebuilt.  Stock they are little better than a couple others.  There is crap ou there like Homeline and Eaton/Siemens/CH BR style.  Waste of money.  And they limit performance.  

The primary feed from the utility to the receptacle in the wall can be very sensitive to how the wiring is installed.  The best electrician out there is going to do it wrong  because he does not have experience powering something as sensitive as an electron microscope.  Thats your stereo.  He will do what all electricians do, meet code minimum.  Anything more in their mind is a waste of money.  They don't get it.  That twisted wire at Fremers.  I grain orient it.  Tell an electrician that and their eyes glaze over.  Tell that to a cable manufacturer and they will acknowledge you know one of their secrets.   When wire is drawn through dies to size it, it gets a grain.  I have heard it called a Chevron.  Its audible and measurable.  I am the only person in the US I know of who is talking UL THHN/THWN solid 10 awg and determining its grain, then orienting all 3 hot, neutral and ground before installation.  Others have stuck wires in a drill and twisted them.  My tools are more clean and precise.  I built a custom bobbin and twist the wire 1 turn every 2 inch.    I am soon going to Cryogenic immersion bath this wire. 

I don't like MC cable or wire in a steel pipe.  I use it when I have to such as in NYNY.  Otherwise its a can of worms.  It creates ground loop issues.  It really blocks no RF.  Its there to stop fires as an arch in the conductors rarely propagate ouside the metal case.  Steel will block a small amount of emf from one branch circuit to another.  But the steel case is interacting with the electro magnetic field around the wire and compressing it. In my mind Its not ideal.   But I do need to test it more.

I do not like 8 awg and larger.  MSB may have written a paper saying you want to upsize to larger gauges for longer runs, but every wire is audible.  8 is analytical.   It grabs your attention and makes you aware of different parts and pieces in the music.  Its harder to relax and enjoy.  10 is plenty of current.  Romex is decent wire.  If your on a budget, use it.  Its a little hard and slightly analytical,  but not like 8.  Romex is great for subs.  8 can be too.  They speed up the bass.  Grain oriented twisted is more whole and complete in tone.  Its easier to digest the whole of the presentstion and relax while listening.  Its a little fuller, but looses no resolution. 

The all copper panels I mentioned are nice as you eliminate the galvanic reaction between the copper and aluminum.   Its audible.  Its heard as a sleigh  veil and haze.  A small amount of lost resolution and softening of the music.  If you have SET amps and horns, you might find it tames some of their potential "Hot" dynamics.  It could be consodered a tone control.  I prefer to rid noise and work on taming the speaker/room issues in the room.  Not in the electrical infrastructure.   

Rex

I had to have the second phase run at Fremers because I could not get a letter from SqD saying a Square D subpanrl rated 120/240 was suitable for 120 only.

That jogged my memory. Sounds like the Electrical Inspector was using NEC 110.3 (B). Square D manufactured the Load Center to be connected to a split phase 120/240V AC source. The ampacity rating of the neutral bar can be, is, sized smaller for a split phase AC source because as you know the service neutral only carries the unbalanced load back to the neutral of the secondary winding of the power transformer. The neutral bar ampacity rating would not be rated big enough if the panel was connected to a 120V only source. (IF the panel was loaded to its full rated capacity.) There is the problem.

After reading your post I remembered having a conversation with my friend in Texas when I suggested feeding the electrical panel for his audio room equipment 120V only. In my friend’s case the panel was fed from a 15KVA isolation transformer. (Primary 240V, secondary configured for 120V only). I remembered talking to him about the electrical panel and the possible problem with the electrical inspector approving it connected to 120V only. I told him the ampacity rating of the neutral bar would be the possible problem. It depends on how well the inspector is versed on the NEC... He said, can’t I have my electrician just change out the neutral bar? No... Doing so will void the UL Listing. The Electrical Inspector, if his knows the NEC, as well as the electrical panel, will spot the neutral bar was changed out and flag the panel, If the panel was modified it needed to be re-Listed for the modification. No Listing, it can’t be installed. (NEC 110.3 (B) (C) ).

As for the panel for the audio room my friend wanted the best. Money was no object... Imo, a Square D panelboard with QOB bolt on breakers.

His isolation transformer would be 15KVA. At 120V the xfmr was good for 125A. I suggested he over size the ampacity rating of the panel. I can’t remember what I recommended. I do remember the Electrical Inspector passed it being fed 120V only but required the Electrician pull/install a spare conductor the same size as the existing ungrounded conductor for future, possibility of, feeding the panel 120/240V.

/ / / /

As for Fremer’s video, he made the day of rewiring of the electrical service for his home, I cringed every time Fremer would say "every thing according to code". He said it several times in the video. I was surprised you guys didn’t suggest he stop saying that... As you know Code is bare minimum electrical safety standards... NEC could care less how an audio system sounds. All NEC cares is if it is electrically safe...

Jim

 

Don't we need metal boxes at each wall outlet and each metal box gets its own ground wire ran back to the panel? These grounds are separate from the romex. 

I don’t like MC cable or wire in a steel pipe.

I agree with your statement for use of steel armored MC cable or loosely pulled conductors in a steel conduit for the reasons you stated in your post dated 02-24-2023.

I do like and recommend 2 wire with ground solid core copper conductor aluminum armored MC cable though. ( MC, not, AC cable. ) The aluminum armor does reject some RF from entering the cable. What I like about aluminum armored MC cable is the Hot, Neutral, and insulated EGC, conductors are twisted in a spiral twist and held firmly, tightly, together by the aluminum armor.

Price for solid core copper 2 wire with ground aluminum armor MC cable is competitive with NM cable in my area. I agree twisting the hot and neutral current carrying conductors together and pulling the EGG along side the twisted pair pulled in conduit is better than AL armored MC but the difference, to me anyway, does not justify the additional cost, especially the labor cost... If cost is no object well then....

Note: MC cable should only be installed by a licensed electrician that has experience removing the armor from the wire for termination.

Jim

/ / / /

For anyone interested:

Power Distribution and Grounding of Audio, Video and ...

Read pages 4 and 8.

Closely read pages 11, 12, and 13.

For Isolation transformers read page 19.

.

I have dedicated circuits but still they don't address the noise issues which are a shared problem with everything else on the panel.

So I Think it should be recommended to additionally install a Power conditioner of quality that does not impede the flow of electricity.

This combo of Power conditioners and dedicated circuits seems optimal. I use a Transparent Power isolator which I use to plug in my amplifiers.

Additionally now that people have 10 gauge dedicated circuits they need to replace all the power cords what's 10 gauge Power cords. Doesn't this make sense?

 

@jea48 Wrote:

What I like about aluminum armored MC cable is the Hot, Neutral, and insulated EGC, conductors are twisted in a spiral twist and held firmly, tightly, together by the aluminum armor.

MC cable is manufactured in both steel and aluminum with twisted conductors that help reduce AC magnetic fields. Also, steel MC will help reduce EF. I am sure you know that. 😎

Mike

So where do I find this twisted mc cable? All i see is untwisted or straight.

So where do I find this twisted mc cable? All i see is untwisted or straight.

It's not straight, trust me.

Example of what to buy:

I highly recommend you hire an electrician to install MC cable.

.

.

 

 

 

 

 

I saw that. I am having an electrician do all this work.

I really appreciate all the helpful suggestions. What I’ve decided to do is 3 dedicated 20 amp circuits using the 10 gauge aluminum mc cable and eventually some nice Hubbell outlets although for inspection purposes the outlets will have to be cheap tamper resistant ones. Thanks again for all the help.

Make sure you tell the electrician you want 10/2 with ground SOLID copper conductor aluminum armored MC cable.

"MC", NOT "AC" armored cabled. Make sure he repeats to you it will be MC cable.

 

Be careful what you are buying now days when it comes to Hubbell outlets. Hubbell today it not the company it was years ago. Different owner.

What are looking at buying? How many outlets are you looking at buying?

Southwire Armorlite 125-ft 10/2 Solid Aluminum MC Cable

You sure you want to recommend this cable. Think of all the issue you are creating. I would never use it. Its what I removed from Fremers that was causing lots of issues.

And I'm pretty sure its not twisted anymore.  Most all that stuff is strait transmission line.  Its held together so the impedance/capacitance is stable.

If your really concerned about rejecting noise, put an isolation transformer in for amps.  Size it to feed the whole system.  Or use an Audio Quest type filter on the front end and amps to the wall.  Either of those solutions will get rid of a lot of noise.  MC does not get rid of any noise.  The aluminum may block a small amount of RF on the branch only.  Aluminum does not do much for EMF when cables are places side by side.

I personally say stick with Southwire NM cable or spend more and get grain oriented twisted. 

Think of all the issue you are creating. 

Like what?

 

Are you sure, maybe, you didn't remove AC AL armored cable?

How many wires are in 10/2 and what are they.

How many wires are in 10/2 and what are they.

@kingrex

I assume you mean in MC.

3 insulated conductors. 2 Line conductors, 1 green insulated EGC.

You should know that🤔...

kingrex

74 posts

02-26-2023 at 02:13pm

Southwire Armorlite 125-ft 10/2 Solid Aluminum MC Cable

You sure you want to recommend this cable. Think of all the issue you are creating. I would never use it. Its what I removed from Fremers that was causing lots of issues.

And I’m pretty sure its not twisted anymore. Most all that stuff is strait transmission line. Its held together so the impedance/capacitance is stable.

If your really concerned about rejecting noise, put an isolation transformer in for amps. Size it to feed the whole system. Or use an Audio Quest type filter on the front end and amps to the wall. Either of those solutions will get rid of a lot of noise. MC does not get rid of any noise. The aluminum may block a small amount of RF on the branch only. Aluminum does not do much for EMF when cables are places side by side.

I personally say stick with Southwire NM cable or spend more and get grain oriented twisted.

.

You sure you want to recommend this cable. Think of all the issue you are creating. I would never use it. Its what I removed from Fremers that was causing lots of issues.

Just a guess you removed AC cable from Fremer’s house. Not MC cable. Heck I don’t think you have ever worked with MC cable the way it sounds.

This statement of yours kind of says it all.

How many wires are in 10/2 and what are they.

To be more precise there is a black, a white, and a green EGC. All three conductors are the same AWG size. The Insulation covering the wire is THHN.

Here’s a picture of 2 wire MC cable for you to look at.

Southwire 8 ft., 12/2 Solid CU MC (Metal Clad) Armorlite ...

.

Here’s a picture of AC cable for you to look at.

12/2 x 250 ft. Solid CU BX/AC (AL Armored Cable) ...

A 16 AWG bare aluminum bond wire to be used in conjunction with the armor for the EGC. AC is junk, imo.

 

And I’m pretty sure its not twisted anymore. Most all that stuff is strait transmission line.

It was manufactured in a spiral twist yesterday, and it will be manufactured in a spiral twist tomorrow, and the next day and the next day, and the next day after that. Like I said, I don’t think you have ever worked with MC cable.

 

If your really concerned about rejecting noise, put an isolation transformer in for amps. Size it to feed the whole system. Or use an Audio Quest type filter on the front end and amps to the wall.

Wheres that coming from? Read the OP’s original message.

 

I personally say stick with Southwire NM cable or spend more and get grain oriented twisted.

You can have your opinion. I have mine. Of course there has been testing comparing NM sheathed cable to MC armored cable.

NM works fine providing the installer of the cable takes extra care not to twist the cable while installing it so as not to distort the lay, placement, of the bare EGC between the two current carrying conductors.

With MC cable that can’t happen. The Hot, neutral, and insulated ground spiral twist is held tightly together it’s entire length by a plastic wrap and the metal armor. Be it aluminum or steel.

The testing I talked about. I have two white papers for you to read.

An Overview of Audio System Grounding and Interfacing

.

Take a look at page 16.

Read pages 31 thru 36. Pay close attention to page 35.

Page 35 chart.

Al armored MC cable beat out NM cable. I wonder how careful the techs were with the NM. I bet they didn’t twist it, changing that exact lay, position, of the bare ground wire between the two current carrying conductors.

There is a magnetic “null zone” exactly midway between line conductors

Of course you can’t always count on it.

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Power Distribution and Grounding of Audio, Video and ...

Read pages 11, 12, and 13.

Pay close attention to the chart on page 13. Again Al armored MC beat out NM cable.

Oh and look at the picture of the test board. The NM is laying flat. No twists. Wish they would have tested it with at least a couple light twist in it. Just like in the real world.

Good luck pulling NM cable without getting any twists in it.

You still want to recommend NM cable over AL armored MC cable?

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or spend more and get grain oriented twisted.

There’s a sales pitch to buy your 2 conductor with insulated ground THHN, maybe, THHN/THWN twisted cable assembly.

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Best regards,

Jim

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Remember the Dead Poets Society when Robin Williams told the kids to stand on their desks.  To see the world from a different perspective.  I don't even know if you all have put your boots on the ground.  Wiring an AV room is not the same as wiring a 2 channel audio room.  Proper grounding has little to do with the electrode in the earth.  You don't use metal encased wire with a hot, neutral and ground.    I don't care if its AC, MC or Steel/Aluminum pipe and wire.  If you wrap you wire in metal you have to be very careful in how you do it.  If you make a single mistake, you will have a very loud ground loop.

Many recording studio are wired with metal raceways.  And many of those studio have a large isolation transformer that feeds everything.  But the guy who designed the infrastructure is many times at the site during installation to oversee the project and make sure the electrician does it right.   An electrician is your worst enemy when it comes to powering your audio system.  They will ignore the spec and drawings, say they know best, then ask for a change order to remove and replace materials they installed incorrectly.  Your much safer using NM.

And, you have to make a shop where you can limit variables and listen to what you preach.  You have to go through 5 or 6 homes and step by step change out 1 variable at a time, then listen and learn.  Let it sit for a couple weeks and get the owner feedback.  Then go back and make 1 and only 1  change, then listen again and let it marinate.  I have been fooled myself.  I made a change to feeder ground and was all smitten with the resultant bass.  The owner told me 3 days later to rip it out.  It was all wrong.  He could only turn the stereo on for about 1/2 an hour, then he was completely unsettled and turned it off.  I changed it back and he said it was night and day better.  He was back to listening for hours on end.  I shared the experience with an industry professional and he explained why what we heard happened.  WIRES HAVE A SOUND.  Every one of them.  Maybe your a denier and think every power cord sound the same.  If that is the case, then why are you even arguing.  It doesn't matter.   If you do believe power cords have a voice, then why wouldn't 40 feet of wire in the wall also have a voice.  Technical jargon is just that.  Its indispensable to be educated, but you have to listen to what you do.  I am constantly learning.  I'm not perfect.  I have made mistakes and stumbled.  Like the ground above.  But hey, the internet if full of people saying oversize your grounds.  So I tried it.    But every time I do experiment I know more.  At times I go back to projects I did in the past and refine the installation to get a little more out of it.  Like I said earlier, the NEC is a minimum.  Just because it meets code, does not mean its anywhere near as good as it can be.

If you decide to put some holes in your walls and bring 5 or 6 different wires from your distribution panel out to your rack with the same termination on the end to listen, I would love to hear your impressions.  I like to do this with my amp and my DAC.  As well as phono preamp at times.  And don't forget to let it rest in your system for a couple weeks.  There is a big difference between back and forth listening and living with something for a while.  What might sound WOW to you at the moment might end up quite grating over time.  I find 24 hours or constant play with maybe 2 or 3 on off cycles is enough time to get a wire stabilized to hear what its doing.