Dedicated lines — how many? Other advice?

@nickaboy1 Thanks for your reply.
@grillo451 Not quite following your reply. Too much like code.

Guidance document on appropriate management of suspect/confirmed ... Care Centre must necessarily be mapped to one or more Dedicated.

I have a 20a Furman elite that gets 1 dedicated 20A outlet and thats used for everything tv/avr/dvd,DAC,cable,accessories , then I have another 20A just for my dual PB16 subs, then I have another 20A dedicated outlet for my 4- Buttkicker transducers in my couch because im using a DJ amplifier and it uses allot of power and has tripped out my furman so I added one more outlet so I now have 3-20A for my theater and lighting is separate on a 15A , I got the orange hospital grade outlets and they seem to do the job just right. when I had 1 15a there was allot of sag and no way it could support , if your going to run 1 20a just go ahead and run a second while your at it and tell the electrician to do his job , they are all cut from the same cloth unless you find an audiophile electrician 

Searching around on this topic, I see it's a time-worn debate. Lots of advice out there. My usual M.O. on things like this is that if I cannot see which side of a debate is right and it's possible to get extra running room without spending a premium, I do it. 

In the case of this project, we're talking about a panel on the same unfinished wall as the location of the duplexes -- 12-15ft from panel to duplexes, straight shot. If it seems that even with this most simple situation that extra lines or higher amps is a lot more money, I'll economize.

A 15 amp circuit= 1800 watts
A 20 amp circuit= 2400 watts
 Your gear would never use anything more than that. You can do the math!

It might not trip the breaker, but when I had one 20 amp dedicated circuit it definitely made the lights blink with the bass notes at high volume.

Yes it is! As a matter of fact my system is on a 15 amp circuit with a few other things and the breaker has never tripped. 1 amp=120 watts. IMO, having more is pure overkill! Of coarse there will be many here that disagree with me!

@yogiboy  Gist of what you're saying is -- 15amp is sufficient?

A 15 amp circuit= 1800 watts
A 20 amp circuit= 2400 watts
 Your gear would never use anything more than that. You can do the math!

@lalitk Thanks so much. Yes, the advice has been good, overall, after getting some "my way or the highway" stuff sidelined. 

@hilde45,

You’ve gotten great advise so far. To summarize / reiterate,

1) If possible don’t limit yourself to one dedicated line, it limits your flexibility for gear placement. I have two dedicated lines installed on both sides of my room (30’W x 15’D), no ground loop hum :-)
2) Another vote for Environmental Potentials EP-2050, add EP-2750 Ground Filter to the main panel as well.
3) Use atleast 10awg wire for 20amp dedicated circuit.

Once you have installed dedicated lines, it does not matter how you group your components on each line. As far plugging your gear, I will PM you couple of options to consider.

Good luck!

Thanks, all. As the present space is unfinished, and we’re already needing (for future capacity) to add an additional sub-panel, I suspect that adding multiple dedicated outlets will be relatively inexpensive to do. As I am in Denver and know a few folks with good systems here (including a co-founder of RMAF), I hope to get connected with an electrician who has done this for audio before, or at least get good local advice about codes. If necessary, I can reduce my use to just one dedicated line, and, if and when we sell this house, I can advertise the "media room" as having multiple dedicated outlets. That might be a selling point, down the road.

When I had one dedicated circuit I didn't have enough power. I have a big krell amp and a pair of apogee duetta 2 speakers that are only 80 db sensitivity, but they sound great. It also helps if you run your dedicated circuits at the top of the service panel closest to the main feeder lines.

@hilde45  I have no advice but will share my experience. I have one dedicated 20amp line that was installed as soon we purchased the house.When I decided to move the system to the opposite side of the room on a  20amp circuit that is shared,I heard zero difference.I was quite surprised as I had planned to get down in the basement and move that wire and redo the other circuit. I never bothered.I'm out in the boonies too with pretty clean power (I think).The shared circuit has nothing noisy on it, only a couple of lights and several outlets. I use a surge protector/conditioner that separates digital and analog.

I have tried one dedicated circuit for all my audio gear, but I've found that multiple dedicated circuits works better. You might get away with one dedicated circuit if your amp doesn't have much power.

4 wire dedicated for sure improvement my friend is a Audiophile 
and top electrician one common ground , 2nd ground insulated isolated ground ,and for-sure Dedicated  20 amp line minimum awg 12. It’s well documented ,if someone wants to not do anything that’s fine. 

A follow-up on my early 1-line comment. I tried 2 x 8 gauge lines. One for power amps and ESL power and one for turntable and phono preamp. It sounded fine but not much of an improvement over the existing 14gauge 15amp shared line. There was also a little hum. I killed a breaker and wired everything into one line. Immediate clarity and blackness. 

Thanks, @audioman58 

Another vote for multiple dedicated lines, and all the other details are being noted!

A seperate dedicated line for with a good line conditioner would’ve optimal Audioquest ,has the  model 12000 , 2000, or2500
and 5000 , like myself the bigger wire the better awg 10 is what I used , 20 amp breakers , and 4 wire Not Two, using a dual ground , one common ,the other a insulated isolated ground ,noticeably 
lower noise fooor and for sure and pure silver Circuit breakers or silverplated over copper .much better then stock ,and won’t oxydize like copper, and Copper gold AC outlets pangea 
not expensive $50 each have at least 3-4 outlets installed you 
will use them ,and cap the openings if not using to prevent dust
Getting inside, if you budget can handle a higher priced line
conditioner buy it ,it has better technologies. Also for equipment 
protection Siemens make a nice  surge suppression that installs at
the breaker box.  it’s less then $200 Everything counts.
2 seperate 4 wire dedicated lines better then 1 . Copper wire only 
and all your power cords should have -0 Brass which most cheapest ones have 3 x less conductivity-more resistance = noise
i build some of my own powercords ,and use Furutech  about $120 per per mid grade, VH audio is very good for assistance , email Chris he builds them too if you want quality  ,less $$ then commercial brands , triode wire audio cables are very good value- quality.

Glad to help , happy 4th to all 🇺🇸 

@ditusa @audioman58  Thanks -- taking notes and following those links. Appreciate the actual help.

Myself has a electrician audio friend install 2-20 amp circuits 
to low resistance ,and isolate I had Awg 10 wire , Pangea to HD 
Solid Copper Gold plated AC outlets they are very good ,
the lines are 4 wire ,have 2 grounds ,1 common ground , the other 
is a insulated Isolated ground , it made a tremendous difference .
I had stock awg 14 originally the noise floor is dramatically lowered 
also the 20 amp circuit breakers are Silver and were $60 each but well worth it ,he had to order them for these are only use in critical 
installs he said and I had installer a Siemens big surge suppressor 
installed at the breaker box to protect it.

@hilde45,
Run a 10/awg BX/MC cable solid core conductors from the breaker panel to a metal receptacle box. The metal sheathing on the BX/MC cable absorbs the (EF)) electric fields emitted by the wires and shunts it to ground. Now from panel to plug is shielded. The upside is low line noise and reduced antenna effect. Downside BX/MC cable is pricier. Run at least two dedicated 20 amp lines for audio. I have four in my audio rig. No ground loops See the links below. Hope that helps. Mike.                                                                                                                                 https://centralindianaaes.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/indy-aes-2012-seminar-w-notes-v1-0.pdf

 https://healthybuildingscience.com/2013/01/15/residential-wiring-best/#:

That is the whole point of the test. To educate yourself and your ears to actually maybe understand what everyone else is merely talking about. The fact of the matter is until you have actually done this stuff you just don’t know....It is nice to cut and paste stuff others have done. Do you see the difference between cut and past and knowing from experience?

To "maybe understand." Thanks so much.

So "maybe" you can understand that you’re not the only one who listens or tries things. I do know the difference. So do others. And I am not disputing your (insultingly simple) advice to try things and listen.

But bear in mind that you gave an instant and fairly definitive answer -- one dedicated line, no surge suppressor. That instant answer to my question shows what’s worked for you. But by researching what others have found -- relayed, I admit, via the vaunted "cut and paste" method -- what do we discover? Oh, that there are others beside you who have as much experience and acumen as you do (can you, maybe, understand that is possible?). Lo and behold! They, too, have also listened and tested -- and look! they found that *more* than one dedicated line was better. And they found that ground loops are not the best rationale for going with only one dedicated line to the exclusion of more. At least, you know, until there’s a chance to listen.

You see the difference? You see why it is possible to learn so much from seemingly simple research like looking what other testimony report? It is nice to dismiss stuff others have done. Do you see the difference between entertaining there are other points of view besides yours and simply promoting your experience as if it was universal truth? I’m hoping that maybe you can understand the difference, but I won’t be betting much on it.

Once again, I invite you to throw up your hands and say "Oh well" and stop (again) polluting my OP's with your snide remarks. You don't like me, you don't respect me, and I would rather forego your advice (and yet another invitation to genuflect at your system) than be exposed to your toxic personality. Begone.

The circuit breaker test I described can be done by anyone, any time. I have described this test at least a half a dozen times now. Once you have your system warmed up and running it takes at most a few minutes. As far as I know no one has ever bothered to try it. 

This is the one area I have yet to hear anyone talk about. It is great what Harley and Atkinson did. For some reason people get all caught up in BSD. I say good for them. But Atkinson compared normal wire to dedicated lines with a conditioner. Harley likewise wired his room, one and done.  

I thought all good audiophiles know you must make only one change at a time to be able to comment on what did what? That is still a thing, right?  

So there really is no conflict at all between what I am saying and what these guys did. All that is missing, neither one of them can say what contributed to what.  

Because I did all my stuff 30 years ago back before the internet I had no choice but to try and see. So my room was wired first the normal way, because the electrician and everyone else had me convinced it couldn't possibly be worth a dedicated line. Then I changed one thing, to a dedicated line. That right there was huge. I have actually done just this one thing, and heard the difference. Then I changed that dedicated line to larger gauge. So I know what that does. Then changed it from 120V to 240V with a step down. Then I added a dedicated earth ground. So I know what that did. Then ripped all the wire out and had it cryo'd. Same wire, nothing else changed. So I know what that does. That was all years ago. Now the last few years I've done a whole slew more things, to the point virtually every inch of wire from where the service comes in the breaker panel to where it solders onto the drivers is treated one way or another.  

The thing about ground loops and hum, it is not a case of if you do it wrong you will get hum. Lots of people get away with doing it wrong, for a couple of reasons. One, it takes a pretty decent voltage differential to result in audible ground loop hum. How much? Depends! And two, a lot of AC "noise" is inaudible as noise. You do not hear it as noise, per se.   

That is the whole point of the test. To educate yourself and your ears to actually maybe understand what everyone else is merely talking about. The fact of the matter is until you have actually done this stuff you just don't know. Atkinson and Harley know they have it better now. They just don't know for sure why, because of the way they did it. 

Having done this stuff has taught me every inch of wire is an antenna funneling noise into the system. I would not want more wires running to my system simply because that is more antenna, more noise. Also I know the value of treating the wires. The more wires the more wire treatment. Double the treatment does not yield double the improvement. It just costs double. 

You see the difference? You see why it is possible to learn so much from seemingly simple tests like flipping breakers? It is nice to cut and paste stuff others have done. Do you see the difference between cut and past and knowing from experience?

P.S. You mention Fremer. He's a smart guy. So is Robert Harley; here's Harley on dedicated lines:

"The room’s five dedicated 20-amp AC outlets for the audio system are wired with identical lengths of 10AWG on the same phase…. I specified five dedicated lines for equipment-placement flexibility. In practice, I need only three: one for each power amplifier and a third for the front-end components."
https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/building-a-listening-room/3

Here's Atkinson:

Stereophile editor John Atkinson writes “For less than the cost of a budget power amplifier-a mere $373.45—the electrician ran two new 20A lines to the listening room, one with the hot on one side of neutral, the other on the other. Each had its own circuit breaker and each fed two hospital-grade wall sockets. (These orange receptacles grasp the prongs of AC plugs with a clasp akin to the Vulcan death grip.) All source components and the system preamplifier were plugged into an Inouye AC conditioner, in turn plugged into one of the new lines; power amplifiers were plugged into the other new line.

The sonic effect was nothing short of stunning.
https://www.psaudio.com/ps-how/how-to-install-a-dedicated-ac-line/

Here's Paul McGowan on Ground Loops and dedicated lines:
https://youtu.be/uWqLbiqKMPY?t=260

Been consulting some very experienced audiophiles with long scientific backgrounds. They've been testing audio for a long time and have fantastic systems.

1. The idea of designing a power supply scheme around defeating ground loops is one way to go. But many people never experience ground loops. If I run more than one line — which is quite cheap when everything is bare wall and a new panel is coming — is smarter than accepting, from the get go, that ground loops are a likely result.

2. If I ever want to have the ability to run high power class A amps? If so, having dedicated 20 amp circuits is the way to go.

3. If I live in an area where electrical storms are common? (I do). If so, then one better be thinking about surge protection and/or unplugging everything when not in use. Some do both.

4. Recommendation: at least two dedicated 20 amp lines; one is for power amps, the other is for everything else. More dedicated lines makes sense, if the cost is reasonable at time of build.

Oh, and Miller -- I agree about listening. I'll put in the additional lines and listen -- for a ground loop, for sound, etc. And if it sounds better on a single line, or if I hear a ground loop hum, I'll let everyone know. Promise.

Bear in mind a lot of things people say that seem to make sense don’t really pan out when tested. The idea of separating things on different circuits for example. I have done all kinds of stuff that proves this does not work the way everyone thinks. There is even a very simple method anyone can use to demonstrate and prove this for themselves.

Simply listen to some music, flip off all the non-system circuit breakers, and listen again. The improvement you just heard was nothing to do with the system circuit. You didn’t touch that. It is all the other "separate" "isolated" circuits that made the difference. If things on other circuits are isolated or separated then disconnecting them would make no difference. But it does. Therefore they cannot be isolated.

Next do the same thing only this time flip off only circuits with nothing running on them. Another improvement, this time not as big but it is there. I have done this several times for different people, they always hear it. I have done this before and after adding a power conditioner, step down transformer, system dedicated earth ground, etc. All things that are supposed to eliminate and prevent things like this from ever happening. They do not. They do not make even the slightest difference. The breaker flipping trick makes a big improvement, no matter what.    

So what is going on? I could tell you but it is better if you actually do this and think about it, because that is the key, to think and not just repeat stuff everyone else is saying.

@tvad I had that in my notes from before. On my list.

Environmental Potentials EP-2050
https://www.vhaudio.com/acpowerconditioning.html

Actual user since 2007.

FYI, VH Audio in USA and Audio Sensibility in Canada sell cryo-treated 10awg Romex.

+1 @invalid

Continued thanks for the advice. I looked back at some earlier threads about this and found the following. There is some good confirmation of one dedicated line from Almarg and some other views about more than one. There is confirmation of a whole house suppressor from Almarg and another member. Still listening.

dletch2455 posts
04-26-2021 12:15pm
To understand lighting / surge protection, you have to think of the path from outside your house all the way to equipment.

Whole home surge protection is an excellent idea and one I have myself. They can withstand very large event. Not a direct hit, but a fairly close hit. Let’s say you get a surge a ways away, perhaps your whole home unit clamps the peaks to 1000V. The inductance/resistance in the house wires is enough that the small amount of surge protection in your electronics will protect them. Now let’s say you get a close hit. Your whole home unit now clamps to 2000V. Unfortunately, even with your house wire this is enough to blow some of the electronics.

Now if you add local surge protection in a power bar, your whole house protects to 2000, and then the local surge unit perhaps to 1000, which is what enters your equipment which survives. If you didn’t have the whole home, the local surge would say take 4000V, and pass 2500 to the equipment destroying it.

It is not unusual to lose home appliances in surge events.

************
 

itsjustme313 posts
03-12-2020 6:06pm
Oops, one mroe thing. Put dirty things (computers, digital streamers, your Roon core) on another circuit, on the other side of the filter. Otherwise you are locking the noise **in** :-)

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lalitk2,802 posts
05-01-2020 8:36am
@hilde45,

If you’re going to go through the trouble of running dedicated power line, I suggest you run two dedicated lines. One for Analog and the other one for digital. Once you do, install high quality passive power distributor (strips) for each line. As far as surge protection goes, install protection at breaker box, all the sub-par power strips with surge protection are worthless. This is one area, one shouldn’t go cheap or cut corners.

*************

almarg
05-03-2020 6:54pm
FWIW, in my particular case I believe that the quality of my incoming AC is relatively good, as there is no commerce or industry within more than two miles of my house and nearly all of the town is zoned two-acre residential. So I’ve chosen to adopt a "less is more" approach to power conditioning (no regenerators for me!), but without compromising the protection of my system.

What I’ve done is as follows:

-- Installed an Audience aR2p Surge Suppressor/Conditioner ($695).
-- Installed a Wiremold UL210BC Power Strip ($71) to expand the two outlets of the Audience to 10.
-- Plugged a Shunyata Venom Defender ($225) into one of the outlets of the power strip, to attenuate noise that may be generated by digital components and the power amp and fed back into their power cords, from whence it could potentially couple into other components.
-- Installed a single 20 amp dedicated line, which powers the entire system via the Audience.
-- FWIW a "SyCon" whole house surge protector was installed by an electrician at the service panel, when I had him replace the entire panel a few years ago.

As I said I’m in an area that presumably has relatively clean power, so this approach may or may not be a good one in other circumstances. But it works well for me.

Best regards,
-- Al

**************
One thread is here: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/extra-power-or-cleaner-power

How many lines again, Michael? https://youtu.be/H07NpWk_Xf8?t=947

Surge suppressors? Almost everything electrical it is low voltage that causes problems not high. All my sensitive electronics from computers to CPAP run right off 240 when I travel just fine. The reason is they all have power supplies. The first thing that happens in a power supply the voltage goes through a transformer that steps it up or down to whatever the device requires. It then goes through diode rectifiers that convert AC to DC, which is stored in power supply caps. Voltage surges do nothing but help the caps charge faster.

That's if the voltage surge is from say 120V to 240V, which is a pretty big surge, but nothing can't be handled fine anyway. So surge suppressor no good.

What if you are hit by lightning? Then the surge can be 60kV, 100kV, the skies the limit. This kind of voltage takes out your roof or wherever it hits, and arcs right through your circuits in a surge so big and fast only seriously designed protection is gonna do any good- and maybe not even then. Go look at what a direct hit can do.

People buy these because it makes them feel so good to imagine they are maybe gonna be safe from something that in all likelihood never will happen, and are willing to pretend this all comes at no cost in terms of sound quality.

We spend thousands and go to great lengths to run a direct line to eliminate extra connections and the noise they introduce, then turn around and believe none of that matters any more because, "surge suppressor". 

But fear will cause people to do all kinds of things. Remember your Dune: "Fear is the mind-killer."

Run at least two dedicated 20 amp lines, you can always Revert back to one line if you think it sounds better. I have 6 in my dedicated audio room, and I don't have any ground loops.

Thank you for the advice so far. Since the entire room is being wired I do not think it will cost anything much more to run more than one dedicated line if that seems best. I see arguments for and against that so far but cost is not going to be a factor I don’t think so I could run more than one or just one whatever is most advantageous to the sonic outcomes.

on another thread much earlier in the year or, last year, at least a half dozen people recommended getting a whole house suppressor to protect gear, not just for the audio system, but for protection elsewhere in the house. But you are saying skip it, MIller?

Use one direct (dedicated) line for the audio. This will be your high end system line. Everything connected to this system must be plugged into this circuit. Nothing else. This is to a) provide the best power and b) avoid ground loop hum and other noise problems.  

Everything else can be on as many circuits wired however you want. I would recommend one circuit for lights, one for all other outlets, and plug all the other stuff (video, etc) into those other outlets. 

Do not use more than one line for the audio. Use one power conditioner and plug everything into that one AC source. Does not matter how you group components. (There is a lot of misinformation around all these topics. Study my system. See who has what experience. Nuff said.) 

Skip the surge suppressor. Waste of money.  Spend it where it will do more good. Get the Decware Zen https://www.decware.com/newsite/ZLC.html

Use 10awg wire, 20A, and do not stress the details. For what you can spend on stuff you will never hear you can buy one fuse that will make a hundred times more difference. I know. I have wired my room several different ways and heard what all these different things actually do. There is more benefit to a good AC outlet for less money and work than what you can do paying an electrician, trying to convince him, etc.   

Try and keep some perspective. The single biggest improvement by far is to run the one line direct. Otherwise, electricians will always wire a circuit to go from outlet to outlet in a daisy chain of connections. Eliminating all these connections is by far the biggest gain. I have wired my room at least three different ways, including ripping it all out and having all the wire cryogenically treated. By far the biggest improvement was that first step of running the line direct. So do what you want but realize there are things that are extremely cost effective, and then there is a lot of other stuff that you could do way better with the same money any of a dozen other ways. 

It’s probably not much more expensive to run two dedicated lines than one, so I’d run one for analog and one for digital for the dedicated audio only. I wouldn’t bother with the A/V stuff — just get a good power conditioner with surge protection with power regulation to protect/prolong their less-robust power supplies and electronics.  FWIW.

(b) How many dedicated lines for the audio alone? How would you group components on each line?

One. 20amp. 10 gauge.