Thank you for the advice so far. Since the entire room is being wired I do not think it will cost anything much more to run more than one dedicated line if that seems best. I see arguments for and against that so far but cost is not going to be a factor I don’t think so I could run more than one or just one whatever is most advantageous to the sonic outcomes.
on another thread much earlier in the year or, last year, at least a half dozen people recommended getting a whole house suppressor to protect gear, not just for the audio system, but for protection elsewhere in the house. But you are saying skip it, MIller? |
Continued thanks for the advice. I looked back at some earlier threads about this and found the following. There is some good confirmation of one dedicated line from Almarg and some other views about more than one. There is confirmation of a whole house suppressor from Almarg and another member. Still listening. dletch2455 posts
04-26-2021 12:15pm
To understand lighting / surge protection, you have to think of the path from outside your house all the way to equipment.
Whole home surge protection is an excellent idea and one I have myself. They can withstand very large event. Not a direct hit, but a fairly close hit. Let’s say you get a surge a ways away, perhaps your whole home unit clamps the peaks to 1000V. The inductance/resistance in the house wires is enough that the small amount of surge protection in your electronics will protect them. Now let’s say you get a close hit. Your whole home unit now clamps to 2000V. Unfortunately, even with your house wire this is enough to blow some of the electronics.
Now if you add local surge protection in a power bar, your whole house protects to 2000, and then the local surge unit perhaps to 1000, which is what enters your equipment which survives. If you didn’t have the whole home, the local surge would say take 4000V, and pass 2500 to the equipment destroying it.
It is not unusual to lose home appliances in surge events.
************ itsjustme313 posts
03-12-2020 6:06pm
Oops, one mroe thing. Put dirty things (computers, digital streamers, your Roon core) on another circuit, on the other side of the filter. Otherwise you are locking the noise **in** :-)
************ lalitk2,802 posts
05-01-2020 8:36am
@hilde45,
If you’re going to go through the trouble of running dedicated power line, I suggest you run two dedicated lines. One for Analog and the other one for digital. Once you do, install high quality passive power distributor (strips) for each line. As far as surge protection goes, install protection at breaker box, all the sub-par power strips with surge protection are worthless. This is one area, one shouldn’t go cheap or cut corners.
************* almarg
05-03-2020 6:54pm
FWIW, in my particular case I believe that the quality of my incoming AC is relatively good, as there is no commerce or industry within more than two miles of my house and nearly all of the town is zoned two-acre residential. So I’ve chosen to adopt a "less is more" approach to power conditioning (no regenerators for me!), but without compromising the protection of my system.
What I’ve done is as follows:
-- Installed an Audience aR2p Surge Suppressor/Conditioner ($695).
-- Installed a Wiremold UL210BC Power Strip ($71) to expand the two outlets of the Audience to 10.
-- Plugged a Shunyata Venom Defender ($225) into one of the outlets of the power strip, to attenuate noise that may be generated by digital components and the power amp and fed back into their power cords, from whence it could potentially couple into other components.
-- Installed a single 20 amp dedicated line, which powers the entire system via the Audience.
-- FWIW a "SyCon" whole house surge protector was installed by an electrician at the service panel, when I had him replace the entire panel a few years ago.
As I said I’m in an area that presumably has relatively clean power, so this approach may or may not be a good one in other circumstances. But it works well for me.
Best regards,
-- Al ************** One thread is here: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/extra-power-or-cleaner-power |
@tvad I had that in my notes from before. On my list. |
Been consulting some very experienced audiophiles with long scientific backgrounds. They've been testing audio for a long time and have fantastic systems.
1. The idea of designing a power supply scheme around defeating ground loops is one way to go. But many people never experience ground loops. If I run more than one line — which is quite cheap when everything is bare wall and a new panel is coming — is smarter than accepting, from the get go, that ground loops are a likely result.
2. If I ever want to have the ability to run high power class A amps? If so, having dedicated 20 amp circuits is the way to go.
3. If I live in an area where electrical storms are common? (I do). If so, then one better be thinking about surge protection and/or unplugging everything when not in use. Some do both.
4. Recommendation: at least two dedicated 20 amp lines; one is for power amps, the other is for everything else. More dedicated lines makes sense, if the cost is reasonable at time of build.
Oh, and Miller -- I agree about listening. I'll put in the additional lines and listen -- for a ground loop, for sound, etc. And if it sounds better on a single line, or if I hear a ground loop hum, I'll let everyone know. Promise. |
P.S. You mention Fremer. He's a smart guy. So is Robert Harley; here's Harley on dedicated lines: "The room’s five dedicated 20-amp AC outlets for the audio system are wired with identical lengths of 10AWG on the same phase…. I specified five dedicated lines for equipment-placement flexibility. In practice, I need only three: one for each power amplifier and a third for the front-end components." https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/building-a-listening-room/3Here's Atkinson: Stereophile editor John Atkinson writes “For less than the cost of a budget power amplifier-a mere $373.45—the electrician ran two new 20A lines to the listening room, one with the hot on one side of neutral, the other on the other. Each had its own circuit breaker and each fed two hospital-grade wall sockets. (These orange receptacles grasp the prongs of AC plugs with a clasp akin to the Vulcan death grip.) All source components and the system preamplifier were plugged into an Inouye AC conditioner, in turn plugged into one of the new lines; power amplifiers were plugged into the other new line. The sonic effect was nothing short of stunning. https://www.psaudio.com/ps-how/how-to-install-a-dedicated-ac-line/Here's Paul McGowan on Ground Loops and dedicated lines: https://youtu.be/uWqLbiqKMPY?t=260 |
That is the whole point of the test. To educate yourself and your ears to actually maybe understand what everyone else is merely talking about. The fact of the matter is until you have actually done this stuff you just don’t know....It is nice to cut and paste stuff others have done. Do you see the difference between cut and past and knowing from experience? To "maybe understand." Thanks so much. So "maybe" you can understand that you’re not the only one who listens or tries things. I do know the difference. So do others. And I am not disputing your (insultingly simple) advice to try things and listen. But bear in mind that you gave an instant and fairly definitive answer -- one dedicated line, no surge suppressor. That instant answer to my question shows what’s worked for you. But by researching what others have found -- relayed, I admit, via the vaunted "cut and paste" method -- what do we discover? Oh, that there are others beside you who have as much experience and acumen as you do (can you, maybe, understand that is possible?). Lo and behold! They, too, have also listened and tested -- and look! they found that *more* than one dedicated line was better. And they found that ground loops are not the best rationale for going with only one dedicated line to the exclusion of more. At least, you know, until there’s a chance to listen. You see the difference? You see why it is possible to learn so much from seemingly simple research like looking what other testimony report? It is nice to dismiss stuff others have done. Do you see the difference between entertaining there are other points of view besides yours and simply promoting your experience as if it was universal truth? I’m hoping that maybe you can understand the difference, but I won’t be betting much on it. Once again, I invite you to throw up your hands and say "Oh well" and stop (again) polluting my OP's with your snide remarks. You don't like me, you don't respect me, and I would rather forego your advice (and yet another invitation to genuflect at your system) than be exposed to your toxic personality. Begone. |
@ditusa @audioman58 Thanks -- taking notes and following those links. Appreciate the actual help. |
Thanks, @audioman58
Another vote for multiple dedicated lines, and all the other details are being noted! |
Thanks, all. As the present space is unfinished, and we’re already needing (for future capacity) to add an additional sub-panel, I suspect that adding multiple dedicated outlets will be relatively inexpensive to do. As I am in Denver and know a few folks with good systems here (including a co-founder of RMAF), I hope to get connected with an electrician who has done this for audio before, or at least get good local advice about codes. If necessary, I can reduce my use to just one dedicated line, and, if and when we sell this house, I can advertise the "media room" as having multiple dedicated outlets. That might be a selling point, down the road. |
@lalitk Thanks so much. Yes, the advice has been good, overall, after getting some "my way or the highway" stuff sidelined. |
@yogiboy Gist of what you're saying is -- 15amp is sufficient? |
Searching around on this topic, I see it's a time-worn debate. Lots of advice out there. My usual M.O. on things like this is that if I cannot see which side of a debate is right and it's possible to get extra running room without spending a premium, I do it.
In the case of this project, we're talking about a panel on the same unfinished wall as the location of the duplexes -- 12-15ft from panel to duplexes, straight shot. If it seems that even with this most simple situation that extra lines or higher amps is a lot more money, I'll economize. |
@nickaboy1 Thanks for your reply.
@grillo451 Not quite following your reply. Too much like code. |
