Dedicated Circuits - Subpanel importance?

Thank you, everyone for the humor and solid advice. I literally chose to spend my time posting here today instead of running to home depot with my shopping list. Thankful I did. Eager to speak with the three local electricians tomorrow.

It's because I caught the audiophile bug that I am looking to save pennies everywhere I can, but maybe this isn't the place to save despite my experience. 

Separate ground for subpanel is against code,  you need to run THHN in conduit not NM and can be run lower on the wall when used in open area.  BX/MC can't be run where it could be damaged, usually it's run high in corner of wall and ceiling and needs to be attached more than conduit. 

 A subpanel just adds joints. 

I agree with Carlsbad's above statement!

@izjjzi,

IMHO, I would run a 10-3/AWG BX/MC cable with solid copper core conductors from the breaker panel to a metal receptacle box. The metal sheathing on the BX/MC cable absorbs the (EF)) electric fields emitted by the wires and shunts it to ground. Now from panel to plug is shielded. The upside is low line noise and reduced antenna effect on AC power lines/branch circuits.
Downside is BX/MC cable is pricier. I would run at least two dedicated 20 amp lines for audio. I have four in my audio rig. All four dedicated audio circuits are 250 volts 20 amps with no noise or ground loops. Also, all four dedicated audio circuits are at the top of the breaker panel numbers 1-8. See the links below. Hope that helps. Mike                                                                                                                        https://healthybuildingscience.com/2013/01/15/residential-wiring-best/#:
 R

 https://www.msbtechnology.com/faq/house-power/

It is legal here as well.

My plan before starting this thread was to purchase 10,2 romex and run it through wall-mounted conduit to an audio grade outlet. I would use a 20A breaker matching the rest in the system as you should. 

I think MC is the one who suggested metal-clad 10,2 because the metal casing would reduce interference, noise or other...? I hoped to drill into this more to see if I should entertain it..

I think the only benefit of a subpanel is if the main can be split. This way you are not subjected to the noise of a shared common / grounding bus with the rest of the house. In fact, it is no longer a subpanel in this configuration. However, I would NEVER entertain splitting a main line. 

I have 3 electricians calling me tomorrow. Looks like they are video calls where I can walk them through my ask. I will follow-up here with the result. Hopefully others can learn from whatever comes to pass. Appreciate all of the input!

@izjjzi 

Hey, I'm not trying to ta;lk you out of it. My thought is that if it is illegal to do, then you have just waved a big flag by trying to get the permit. I' with Oldhvymec about permits.BTW I did my own too, but its legal

1. A subpanel just adds joints. I would just run heavy wire from the main panel.

2.  Conduit is a great option if you can handle the aesthetics.  You don't put romex i conduit.  Pull individual single 10 ga wires.  

3.  are you thinking metal clad instead of conduit?  Either is fine.  You really just need to meet the building code.  I don't think either affects how the power will support good sound.

I just installed (finished on Friday) a 30 amp 240v dedicated circuit for my stereo.  I did it inside the wall and ran 10/3 romex.  Everything is 10 gauge all the way to the outlets (both 120 and 240 volts).

Jerry

@artemus_5  I started the online permit application and it accounts for homeowner work. I stopped filling-out the form and booked a few quote calls with local electricians. I know what it will cost me to do the work and I will contrast it to a few quotes. I did get one quote for a single run in December of $800 that did not include mention of materials used. I know I can do it for less and why I've considered it. 

@oldhvymec Any chance you live in MA? :)

No sub panel needed, although doesn't hurt. Grounding is perhaps most important aspect, grounding rods, no cold water pipe grounding. I also individually ground all my dedicated circuits, exact same ground wire length so no potential issues.

A sub panel is great for adding shorter runs. It add 220/240 if you want. I use it on my bass amps.

Romex is for running on it’s own. No conduit. There is flex armor that meet code in the bay area.

# 10 is great for a subpanel feed

# 12 for 20 amp circuits

# 14 for 15 amp circuits

Use copper not clad they sell that crap everywhere. COPPER, not cryo anything just Copper romex or if your going to use conduit use the correct wire for inside conduit or Flex armor. BTW a lot of the new flex armor is aluminum with copper clad..

ALL grounds must be tied at the main

Any breaks in runs must be put in a box

ALL boxes must have a 2 hour fire rating

It’s actually easier for me to run the wire in the wall after it’s all said and done. You just have to ask someone that knows how to string wire without tearing up the whole house. It usually involves a couple of fancy drill bits and just a little patience. Time wise there is an increase but only because of drywall mud setting. I’ve used hot set mud and only had to primer and paint, still a 2 day wait.

PERMITS: Permits mean you bought permits and paid for something. It doesn’t mean you got anything for your money. The home, building or any thing else could burn down and take out half the neighborhood and the inspector is responsible for absolutely nothing other than looking (if they do at all) and signing the little box. My neighbors house was worked on by a contractor, signed off on by the city and caught fire within a year.. THREE issues all via inspection after the fire. All boo boos, caused an electric mickey mouse clock to burn the joint up. You can get a loan easier for selling or buying if you use OPM, I don’t. Pretty simple.

Sell a house or buying one, I pay cash. I buy "AS IS" I sell " AS IS". I have for 50 years and 22 pieces of property. Same goes for most of the people I deal with, unless I carry the paper or something.. We both shake hand call each other suckers and wait until the next time we meet.

Regards

Before you go to pull a permit for the electrical, you need to know IF you, the homeowner, can legally do the electrical work in your state.If not, you cannot even get the permit. Some states require a licensed electrician to do any and all work. I know the state of MD used to be that way. Don't know what other states have the same rules. I'll leave it at that

Consider a Furman with LiFT and SMP.  Living in an apartment until recently I always could hear when the Furman was missing from the system.

The backstory here, which I may have mentioned in another thread, is that I learned "the hard way" of how important a dedicated line may be. My system was sounding pretty good, but I was listening alone during the day and at night. My brother visited twice and loved what he heard. My point - my system was the only thing using electricity during these times, something I didn’t realized until last Thanksgiving when we had a houseful of guests (as did the neighbors) and my brother said to everyone "you have to hear xxxx’s system". Practically every light, television, Christmas lights and tree were on at the time and a number of us headed down. The SQ was atrocious. Embarrassing! My brother walked out blaming my gear and exclaiming "what a waste of money"... A total disaster I want to avoid or greatly mitigate in my next system.

@djones51 Can you PM these potential violations or post them here? 

@All - Based on your responses the subpanel would reside right next to the main panel, so I do not see any advantages vs a pair of 20A breakers in the main panel. There is plenty of room. This simplifies things and I will look into a permit and inspection. Thank you.

I see 2 possibly 3 code violations in your questions maybe you need to rethink your don't need an electrician stance. At least pull a permit and get inspected unless you never plan on selling the house. Forget insurance covering fire damage.

Does a subpanel help? Is it required? Subpanels are typically supplied from a breaker off of the main panel’s bus, so I’m guessing there is no advantage in terms of SQ? Perhaps if I can independently ground the subpanel it might make a difference?

The big advantage of a subpanel is the heavy gauge wiring to the main panel as well as the convenience of short local circuits. The heavy gauge will reduce any possibility for voltage drop that you would get from running 12 or 14 gauge wiring given the same current.

Always follow the National Electric Code for grounding, which means NO independent ground.

Do put in a panel surge suppressor on your main panel and sub panels.

There has been a lot of audio chatter about grounding.  Michael Fremer did an extensive electrical upgrade and has a YouTube video that may be helpful.  I have an audio friend that also did a sub panel addition as well as install a new ground system for his home.  It was based on a three rod grouping that went very deep (30 feet) into his rocky soil to get the resistance as low as possible.

izjjzi

Does a subpanel help? Is it required? ... Perhaps if I can independently ground the subpanel it might make a difference?

There's no advantage to a subpanel, imo, unless perhaps it can be located close to your system and simplify the rest of the install. As for grounding, all grounds must be bonded together at the main panel and only at the main panel to ensure a fault to ground will trip the breaker.

I have also done my own electrical work with good result. I do recommend getting a permit if required (it was in my case) and then having your work inspected. It's cheap insurance.