DAC choices -- help me cross the line

A friend brought his Border Patrol DAC over a few months ago. At the time, I was using a Schiit Yggdrasil A2. The Border Patrol was smooth sounding, a bit laid back, and more forgiving than the Yggy. On my system, I preferred the Yggy with it's punchier bass, better dynamics, more forward presentation, and more detail. 

I've owned an orchid, border patrol and tubadour. As far as my preferences, I like the Border Patrol better but it isn't as detailed at the tubadour, it is more detailed than the orchid and I'm sure the se of the tubadour is even better. I have not heard the sei version of the Border Patrol. Gary Dews of Border Patrol is brilliant and the Border Patrol is almost no risk. It has a reasonable return policy and the resale demand is exceptional if you want to try something different. I asked Gary recently if he was going to come out with a more full featured dac someday and he could make a few changes to the existing dac for around another $1,000 that would make things interesting. The thing is, if you are just going to sit down and enjoy some music, its hard to argue at the BP pricepoint. The Lampizator dacs are also quite good but they have shifted away recently from pure r2r and now utilize a special digital engine with a DS dac. Good luck, there are alot of great dacs and gear out there. The BP dac sei is a really cool option and you can reach him on the phone. The td1543 dac chip isnt the last work on detail or sampling rate varietals, but it is one of my favorites for value and musicality on most recordings. It is so outdated in the minds of many and yet, some really musical dacs use it. Audio note's new integrated even uses it and its not like Audio note makes rash decisions or puts out a product that doesnt meet their standards. Good luck.

There are a few threads on here related to all of the DACs that you are interested in , including a couple of reviews by member teajay that might be worth checking out . Some of those threads have comments about how they sound one to another

I have owned both the BP and AM (my current DAC).
I purchased the Border Patrol after reading some reviews that attributed an "analogue sound" to the BP. 
IMHO it is a pleasant sounding DAC, but nothing special, lacking detail and air.
I decided to replace it after about a year.

After reading various reviews (a dangerous undertaking) I decided to purchase the RME ADI 2 DAC. I really liked it and had it in system for around a year. A lot of detail and very clean sounding.
I also played around with a couple of Chinese DACs (Musical Paradise, and Audio-gd).
In short none of these were the "one" for me.

Just recently, again after perusing reviews, I came across some really positive remarks about the Audio Mirror.
I contacted Vlad at AM and to make a long story short bought the basic AM Tubadour.
It is a fantastic DAC.
It is detailed and musical, both. The best DAC I have had in my system by far. Vlad is great to do business with too.

One word of advice; give it time to burn in. It will take 50-60 hours before showing the promise of what it can do.

The AM is head and shoulders above the Border Patrol (again my opinion).

Look up teajay's reviews and other threads here about the dacs you're researching.I like my Tubadour lll very much.Mine has the upgrades caps only,so not really an se.All I can compare it to is the tubes Vincent CD player that it replaced.I loved that player but the laser gave out after 9years and couldn't be repaired.The Tubadour has more detail and dimensionality.The Orchid and Border Patrol were on my list to try also if it didn't work out,but I 've had it for a year now with no desire to change.

What is your problem with China. Denafrips makes some great days and Audio-GD the same.

I would fully recomend the Metrum Onyx. It is an incredible DAC. The company should be back up to their old standards as the original owners have bought back the company. I used to own one before I got a TT2 and now am on th the dCS Bartok. 

I am currently using a Border Patrol SEi DAC and love it.  It really has a way to connect you with the music.  It just makes me feel good.  It made such an impression on me that I sold my very highly regarded Schiit Yggdrasil A2 and have not looked back.
I have read good things about the MHDT Orchid DAC but haven’t had the opportunity to audition it.

Just buy the Mytek Brooklyn+ or Brooklyn Bridge+.  Sometimes our first ideas are our best ideas.  You won’t be sorry.

I have Mytek DAC+ with a linear power supply. It needed a month of break-in to reach full potential.  
It’s been a year and I’m very happy with it. You won’t be disappointed.  

Thanks for the advice. I know I can always count on the members here to hep me make the right decision. I feel that both AudioMirror and Border Patrol are excellent DACs in their own right, as is obvious from the posts.

@pastorbob thanks for your feedback about the regular Tubadour. I'm really hoping that someone will chime in and tell me whether spending an additional $1000 on the SE version is worth it. I will really appreciate it if you can compare it to the RME since you've had both. In what ways do you think the AM is better than RME?

I've also added Yggdasil to my short list. Since it's been around for sometime, I hope it's easier to find a used unit. 

I had not heard about the Metrum Onyx. Thanks for the suggestion, will definitely check it out. All great suggestions!

@chilli42 and @veerossi: I haven't completely written off the Brooklyn DAC+. I'm sure it's a great DAC but I just have to scratch that R2R itch. Maybe I'll buy the Brooklyn after I've gotten R2R out of my system, who knows!

BTW, although not an R2R DAC, but I've heard that Chord Qutest does sound very analog like in the right system. Any opinions?

Maybe I'll buy the Brooklyn after I've gotten R2R out of my system, who knows!

Never, once bitten by a good R2R dac your hooked for good, they just sound more real.

Cheers George

If you are interested in the Yggdrasil Take a look at their Gungnir Multibit. It is said to have a more "laid back" or mellow presentation. I have the Gungnir and love it

The Sonnet Morpheus sounds like it checks all your boxes.
Sonnet is Cees Reutenburg’s new company. You may have heard of his last company Metrum Acoustics.
The Morpheus is the next inline where the Metrum Adagio left off without the expensive case. Hence the retail price of $3200
BTW I used to own the Azur 851 and all the things you described is what the Morpheus does differently from the 851.

Arafiq,
I just want to say that the Border Patrol & RME are both very good DACs.
I enjoyed both.
There are just so many from which to choose, and I don't think you can go "wrong" with any of the above suggestions.
The issue is finding a DAC that coincides with your idea of how music should sound.

Of the BP and RME; the RME ADI 2 was a better fit for me.
I really found nothing "wrong" with that DAC & enjoyed it.
It has a ton of options in tailoring sound & allows a deep look into each track.
It can be sort of "clinical" sounding but not overly so.
Again, it is very clean & detailed. If you want to hear exactly how the track was engineered that should be a DAC you consider. It is entertaining to listen like that.

But ultimately that is not what music sounds like to me.
I appreciate a sweet, emotional sound, a connection with the music, as someone said above.
Yes, that "musical" quality is very important to me, but not at the cost of detail.

I also value spatial qualities; depth, air surrounding each voice or instrument, and solid imaging within the recorded space.

Sounds like a tall order, and it is.
But that's what the search is about; finding the equipment that fulfills our musical predilections.
Enter the Audio Mirror Tubadour III.
To me it hits all of those qualities that I find important in listening to recorded music.

Read Terry English's review in Stereo Times.
His review can probably make it a bit clearer relative to the sound, build quality, etc.  of the AM.

So, you asked about the SE version for an extra 1000.00.
When I spoke to Vlad I asked about the upgraded caps and resistors.

Vlad very frankly told me that unless your system is extremely revealing you probably will not get the full impact of the upgrades.

My system is entirely headphone-centric:
Linear Tube Audio microZotl amp with upgraded power supply and ZMF Auteur, Beyerdynamic T1, and Sennheiser HD800 phones, depending on my mood.
So, how revealing, I don't know.

Contact Vlad. He will communicate very honestly with you.

Anyway, I chose to try out the base model (also budgetary considerations..LOL),
And, obviously, I'm extremely happy with the Tubadour III base right now.

In the future there is always the availability to send it back to Vlad for the upgrades. 

Sorry for the long scribe.
I hope I answered some of your question.
Kind Regards;
P.B.

I enjoy my Audio Mirror Tubadour III very much! It replaced the decent Metrum Onyx, with no regrets.

A vairiable to keep in mind with the Tubadour, SE version or not, is the ability to tailor the sound using a pair of any flavor in the 6DJ8/6922/7308 family of tubes.  It takes to tube rolling very well if you are looking for a diff sound from Vlad's stock tubes (2 pairs of 5977 subminiature tubes, configured as one pair).

@pastorbob, agree with your assessment 100%; btw the reviewer is Terry London (not "English", lol). Are you using the 5977s?

Let's throw Holo Audio / Kitsune's offerings into the mix.

Hi 1Mark,
Whoops, yes Terry London of course, my face is red. Thanks!
He is a well respected reviewer.
If you look at the DAC's he has had for review it is amazing he has chosen the Tubadour III as a reference!

Yes, I am using the 5977's.
I am sure I will eventually get the urge to tube roll as I did with my microZotl.

My "go to" guy for tubes is Andy as Vintage Tube Services.
What is your tube rolling experiences with the AM Tub?

@pastorbob, we can take the tube rolling conversation offline, since I don't want to hijack this @arafiq thread, but I seem to end up going back to a pair of Philips Miniwatt SQ E188CC tubes from Holland.

I had the pleasure of hearing Teajay's systems last year, and we had a great time at his place. I learned that his tastes are quite similiar to mine, so he is a great audio reference point for me when he reviews new gear. However, I got my Audio Mirror T3 SE quite a bit before he got his in house. That reminds me... I need to head over there at some point soon!

Apologies @arafiq.
No intention of hijacking your thread.
1Mark I'll be in touch.

I have had Border Patrol and quickly sold it, it was overly colored, warmed to the point the instruments sound out of tune. I do enjoy a bit of warmth and sweetness myself, but Border Patrol did not strike a good balance.

I ended up with Denafrips which strikes a remarkable balance between bold, organic sound and dynamics with detail.

@pastorbob -- thank you so much for taking the time to reply. You summed up everything so very nicely. The qualities you mentioned are exactly what I am seeking in a DAC. It’s reaffirming to know that the AM Tubadour ticks all the boxes for me. Seriously, this was really good feedback, and to the point.

Based on further input from @1markr and @divertiti, I have pretty much made up my mind to get the Tubadour III (non-SE version).

Oh, and please do continue the tube discussion on this thread if you like. I’ll probably be getting the itch to roll some new ones in a few months anyways, and can certainly learn from you guys.

@arafiq,
Glad I could help.
You will not be disappointed with the Tubadour III
BTW, @1markr is a veritable wealth of information when it comes to tubes & audio in general.
Enjoy!

I have the Audio Mirror Tubadour III SE and it is a wonderful sounding DAC.  My setup uses highly revealing modified Klipschorn speakers and 2A3 SET amps (current configuration).  The AM seems to be the perfect compliment, the sound is smooth with tight articulated bass and the midrange especially for jazz is ethereal.  Vlad is also a man of integrity and very helpful.  Highly recommended.

Depends on whether you are open to pre-owned.  There are a number of 'vintage' DACs that use the UA20400, and there is a reason it is called Ultra Analog!!  Several have tube output stages, further enhancing the analog experience.
The great part about used is that you can buy them at market rate, and then try them.  If you don't like them, then you can sell them at market rate.  Could be you will surprised at what 'vintage' sounds like.

Will be worth waiting for the Bakoon dac. 

Out of the current options Denafrips and LessLoss would be worth considering.

I have two PS Audio DACs. A DirectStream Junior and a Stellar Gain Cell. 
Both are wonderful!  If you can find a used DirectStream Junior for $2500 or less I would jump on it. It’s an FPGA upgradable type and sounds like something that would be 10k. The only DACs I would consider upgrading to would be dCS or Briscati. 

Give a Cary DAC-200-TS a try. Use a good digital cable. This DAC will reward you for it.

The analog output is tube or straight out. 

Powerful and dynamic. It has a volume control so you could go straight to an amp.

At the risk of repeating myself on Audiogon threads.
I own the Tubadour III SE.  Its staying .. not going anywhere .. not for sale. Best Dac I have ever owned .... so musical.
 

I own the Tubadour III SE.  Its staying .. not going anywhere .. not for sale. Best Dac I have ever owned .... so musical.

A good R2R dac that's why.

Cheers George

I just picked up the RME and think it's a great DAC.  I think it betters my NAD M51 which sounds pretty good given that its 7 years old... 

Its is connected to a c-j Classic 2SE pre and a pair of Quicksilver Mid Monos running KT 77 power tubes and it is a great pairing.  

Arifiq this past spring I got a totally unexpected eye opening jump in playback performance after going through a number of dacs over the past three years looking to further improve my system .
With the likes of PS Audio senior,  Denafrips Terminator,  Rockna Wavedream and currently the AudioByte Vox .

Like many the focus is on the dac to get that sound you want or experienced by others for some this is intense focus it’s all they talk about  , Well sure a dac is certainly important however this past spring I walked into a dealer to listen to a Innuos server with no intention of buying anything, I just wanted to listen for myself.

The show room dac was MSB with the mid range Wilson speakers the owner without explaining much then plugged in a single box between the server and dac , an all in one box add on that regenerates , re-drives and reclocks the signal to the dac .

 I arranged to take the two Innuos components home and 15 minutes into the first cd I ripped I decided to purchase them . After what it felt like chasing my tail going through dacs it turned out my focus was too much on the dac.

Whatever dac you choose you need to look into these one box marvels , Innuos Phoenix or Ideon’s Master Time , it would be far and away the best 3 grand you’ve spent.

@in_shore I actually considered the Innuos products, but my system in the study is 'relatively' modest .. I couldn't justify the streamer being the most expensive component in the chain. I ended up buying a Sonore opticalRendu which is amazing! But thank you for the suggestion nevertheless ... I completely agree with you that a good music server and streamer have a huge impact on the overall sound quality. 

Folks, how did you guys order the Audio Mirror DAC? I don't see a shopping cart on the website. I have sent two emails (once via the website and one directly) to the company ... it's been three days and not even an acknowledgment. Not a good sign! I wonder what might happen if something goes wrong and you need to talk to someone at AM to get it fixed. Anyways, I will wait for a couple of more days and then start considering other options mentioned here.

Metrum makes R2R exclusively and will be back in biz next month - they are Dutch. Very good dacs, but closer to 3K than 2K.

Mojo Audio call Ben they have a $2500 model that is like buying a 
hot Rodney unit ,I am a modded for a long time you will find nothing under $5 k that is better it has the classic Analog Devises 1865 K version R2R dac Femto clock Xmos board 9 of the worlds 
best Bellison super regulator ,medical grade AC filter, and very important excellent power supplies with 247,000 uf in capacitance
hand balanced for perfect channel matching Descreet Opamps that are pure class-A, Not integrated circuits like all others,and a few other things made in Newmexico USA , it is modular , 45 day audition, and a full 5 year warranty.  His New top Evo dac starts at just over $5k and has just 
won Audiophilia award and reviewer bought the dac it beats dacs several times it’s cost. I have the $2500 model and spent another 
$600 for a max upgrade , it is exceptional It was noticably more musical then the Schitt Yaggs, Audiomirror has the same 1865 dac chip but not even close. Power supply filtering ,is critical in digital 
Mojo Audio knows digital .

Hi Arafiq,
It can take Vlad a few days to reply, but he will contact you.
It is worth waiting, as you will be communicating directly with the guy who is going to build YOUR dac the way you want.

It is a small company and has no automated online ordering (hence the wait in email response too).
I transferred the payment directly to his account using Zelle.
It is easy and efficient.
He will give you other options.

Ten days later I had my Tubadour.
Vlad kept me posted as to receipt of payment, when the dac was built & in testing, and finally a tracking number.
Don't be afraid to email again.

Believe me it is worth a little wait.
I'm sitting here with my coffee listening to Gottschalk's symphony 1;  "A night in the Tropics" and the music just flows so naturally with superb tone and space..........


Kind regards,
P.B.

Arafiq Vlad is one of the better guys you can deal with in the audio business , have patience .

If you are content to just play redbook CD consider an older unit like Wadia 15. This uses what has been claimed as possibly the best R2R architecture with the PCM63. As was mentioned previously, you could buy one for about $1000 and sell it for he same if it did not pan out.

I don't think you will consider selling it after hearing it. I will not be selling mine. A short while ago a few of us gathered to compare DACs and without mentioning all of them a standout revelation was comparing my Wadia to a Bryston BDP-3 playing 24/96 hires and all 5 of us agreed, for once, that the Wadia was simply better in terms of being gripped by the music. I looked at the guys standing around and noticed a couple of wry smiles, some foot tapping and head bobbing. Just simply more immersive and fun.

@in_shore

Whatever dac you choose you need to look into these one box marvels , Innuos Phoenix or Ideon’s Master Time , it would be far and away the best 3 grand you’ve spent.

Are these products you mentioned Digital-2-digital converters, like the Denafrips D/D products? https://www.denafrips.com/products

I am researching the Denafrips D2D stuff on Headfi forum.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/new-denafrips-ddc-iris-and-gaia.931695/

The Denafrips Iris ($400) can take a USB input from say a OpticalRendu and convert it to I2S format to input into a Tubadour.

I was thinking of trying the Denafrips T+ but this Tubadour SE III seems like the one to try first.

It looks like the answer to my initial question is answered here:
https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/reviews/review-innuos-phoenixusb-reclocker-r906/page/3/#comments

Yyzsantabara I believe what Ideon Audio and Innuos proprietory design’s from input to output to what Denafrips Gaia design end goal are different though the Denafrips Gaia would be interesting just to try out .Then there’s Ideons Absolute Time now that would be interesting to try out for sure.

I'm looking for a DAC to use for streaming Tidal or Qobuz.  For the  Tubadour what is the best method for streaming?  Purely based on reviews I was considering the Lumin T2 as a one box streamer and DAC.

Also, I'm very interested in the Audio Mirror SET monoblocks, I had not heard of them, so thanks for that!

Update: After a long wait, I finally received the Tubadour III yesterday. I decided to go with the basic version but did ask Vlad to add an orange fuse. I will refrain from commenting on sound characteristics until I’ve accumulated at least 50 hours. But TBH, the first impressions (after 3-4 hours) are nothing to write home about. Let’s hope things start to improve as time goes on.

However, one thing that I do want to point out is that the buying experience certainly has room to improve. I found the responses from Vlad very delayed and sparse. At one point, I was tempted to pull the plug and go with MHDT or some other company. It felt like pulling teeth to get any information. I’m sure other folks have had better experiences, but I’m just sharing mine with the wider community. Hopefully Vlad can take it as constructive criticism. Having said that I do understand that there are inherent limitations of running a one-man operation. But still ...

I want to thank everyone who shared their opinions and suggestions. I’m sure I would have been equally happy with MHDT, Border Patrol, Metrum, etc.

I’ve put about 20 hours on the DAC so far, and I must say I’m not super impressed. Not only is it not performing better than my Cambridge Audio Azur 851D dac in any particular area, I feel that the soundstage has shrunk, the top end has become dull, e.g. the leading edges and bite of guitars and pianos are gone. A little too sweet and mellow. The first word that comes to find when listening to this DAC: Boring!

I’ll try to live with it for a few more days and then most likely send it back to Vlad. I’m sure it’s a great DAC but it’s not doing anything for me ... yet.

Try to audition a Sonnet Morpheus.
Very nice Dutch DAC with volume control.
A used one would fit your budget.

I own the AM Tubadour III. Great DAC having the qualities aforementioned. I had Vlad add the upgraded capacitors and resistors and the USB power supply. Did not go full out for the SE model. Did not need the additional inputs/outputs or the footers. For my taste I doubt there is a better DAC available at the price.

There's no free lunch at this price point and you choose the compromises you are willing to accept. You might visit with Vlad to determine if there is a less boring tube selection you might try. Many enjoy the Tubadour, the Border Patrol and other similar dacs as so many in our hobby are looking to tame digititus and believe the smoother presentation is more analog like.

I paid peanuts for my dac.... You can buy it used around 100 bucks...

Starting points systems NOS dac TDA 1543 +internal bettery, powered by an ifipower in my case...

Dont throw money on many thousand dollars dac...

This one is the deal...Minimalistic design, overall universal positive reviews...

If you throw your money on the 3 embeddings of your audio system,(mechanical, electrical and acoustical) you will smile at the idea to buy a more costly dac....

The right embeddings exceed in valued S.Q. almost any upgrade you can do even most of the times with new speakers if you own already good one....

My grain of salt in this sea of upgrading waves here....But i know there is too much salt already in this sea.... :)