My current DAC is Cambridge Audio Azur 851D driving the two channel speaker system in the study. My headphone system consists of a Bluesound Node 2i feeding into a Quicksilver headphone amp. The plan is to put the CA DAC in the headphone chain and sell the Node, so this means I have to purchase a new DAC for the 2 channel system in the study. Here's what the 2 channel system looks like ... opticalRendu >> CA Azur 851D (to be replaced) >> Rogue Audio Cronus Magnum 2 >> Harbeth P3esr
So what am I looking for? Heft, holographic, a bit of warmth, big organic sound, tonal richness. I don't mind sacrificing a bit of neutrality or accuracy. I listen to all kinds of music but am partial to jazz, vocals, classic rock.
I almost pulled the trigger on a Mytek Brooklyn DAC+ but wanted to take the R2R DACs for a spin just for kicks. I was initially interested in the MHDT Pagoda or Orchid, but their no-return policy is a no go for me. I know some people don't mind, but I really don't want to give my business to a company who doesn't trust its own products.
So this leads me to three final contenders -- AudioMirror Tubadour iii SE, Tubadour iii (regular/non-SE) and the Border Patrol DAC. Really interested in hearing from someone who might have heard at least one of the two, or better yet compared the Audiomirror to one of the MHDT DACs.
Now Audiomirror offers two versions of the Tubadour III -- SE and non-SE, with the SE being a $1000 costlier. Wondering if the sonic improvements are worth the higher $$$ in the SE version. Would love to hear from someone who has had a chance to compare the two.
Also wondering how the Tubadour III regular version compares to MHDT Pagoda. Both are around the same price.
Note: If are going to suggest another DAC, I don't mind. But please make sure it's R2R, < $2500 (used or new), has a return policy, and NOT made in China.
Arafiq I think how my purchase came about wasn’t from any reviews I read or even someone’s else’s recommendation ,
Sure comments and reviews are most definitely helpful however what got me to try his USB cables were other respected Audiogon members using Grannyrings other cables that got my interest.Myself and others using his Double Smoked BBQ 🍖 USB are content with them . I use two , one from my Innuos Zenith 3 to a Innuos Phoenix to my dac , they are a huge bang for the buck wires ,. Don / Grannyring may have a return policy , ask him he’s a pleasant guy to deal with ....
@in_shore I'm sure it's a great product, and I most definitely want to support a regular agon member if I can. But I can't seem to find any reviews on this product. More importantly I don't know what kind of synergy is there with my AMT dac. If you can point me to some reviews I would really appreciate it,
@jmolsberg -- it's good to know that you're happy with the upgraded version. If you don't mind me asking, what kind of improvements did you notice? Were they subtle or quite noticeable? Once I upgrade the USB cable, power cord, RCA cables, in that order, I will start thinking about sending it to Vlad for an upgrade.
@pastorbob and @in_shore Thank you for the recommendations. I was trying to search for the Smoked BBQ cable but all I'm finding is expired listings.
I checked out the Curious Cable website, and looks like they sell the regular version for $350 (0.8m). Given that pastorbob has paired it with the same DAC as mine, I at least have a relatable point of reference. They also have a newer, more expensive version called Evolved for $550. A bit outside my budget but wondering if any one has compared it with the regular version and thinks its worth the extra dough. I guess I should be posting in the cables forum.
Hey Arafiq, Even after 20 something years in this audio hobby and knowing that with analogue systems cables can make a big, big difference I never gave USB cables a thought (seems I'll never learn).
As a newbie in computer / digital sound I just didn't consider the USB link & used whatever generic cable came with the component. After all, it's just a data stream. In my "audiophilia nervosa" at one point I decided to upgrade the USB.
I too got an Audioquest Forest considering this was a decent quality replacement & I could rest assured my connection was adequate. With the Forest I heard no difference in sound.
About 2 years later I had a few bucks and decide to try the the Audioquest Carbon knowing I could return it to Amazon if I didn't like it. Wow! It opened everything up, to my amazement.
Apparently USB cables could make a difference in how your system sounded & I used that cable for around 2 years.
Then I began to read about the Curious cable. I decided to give it a try, it also had a return policy. Well it sounded much better than the Carbon, much more like music. Not only did detail improve, but all of those qualities we have shared about the Audio Mirror held true.
It is expensive, but, as I said, I do consider it a component. It made THAT MUCH difference to the SQ of my system.
If you can't spent the 500 or so for the original Curious, I understand. I would love to try the new Curious Evolved, but have to wait.
The only piece of gear I would, consider selling to help the cost at this point is my Sennheiser HD700 phones. And those wouldn't bring enough to offset my enjoyment of them.
Yes the Audioquest Carbon opened my eyes (ears) to the effect a USB cable could have. In fact I have kept it. I would offer to send it to you to try, but Amazon will do the same, more quickly, with painless return.
In addition; I have found that Audioquest has a "house sound" compared to the very best cables. Their stuff sounds very detailed at first, but it can become really bright and etched too.
There are probably USB cables other than the Curious that will preserve the essence of the music, perhaps at less expense. I'm sure others will have suggestions.
Here's the bottom line for me:
DON'T SELL YOUR SYSTEM SHORT BY IGNORING THE EFFECT OF THE USB CABLE ON S.Q.
Again, sorry for the ramble. Hope it contains some useful info.
Arafiq Audiogon member Grannyring manufacturer’s a absolutely fabulous USB cable for under you budget , I use two of his Smoked BBQ cables for my Innuos front end I’ve stopped trying other cables . If you can use a USB cable between your dac and server “without” the 5v leg , find out before buying any USB cable this will further improve performance.
I had my AM Tubadour upgraded to the SE, be ready for a painful break-in with those big caps. It’s certainly worth it. the dac retains its sonic signature, just a better version. I lost my left channel 5977 minis after about a year and a half. I replaced them with 6N1P-EV NOS <OTK-1> and grabbed a pair of backup minis from Vlad, which I haven’t rolled back in. The Russian tubes are really good too!
@pastorbob -- How much of an impact did a better USB cable make in your system? I'm currently using the AudioQuest Forest USB cable, which I bought for around $65. I don't necessarily have any complaints but just want to see if I can take it up by another notch. The owner of SmallGreenComputers is recommending the In-Akustik Reference cable since it has good synergy with the opticalRendu which I own. I'll take a look at Curios Cable as well. My budge for USB cable is $350 max -- new or used. Just wondering what kind of improvements, if any, have folks experienced when moving to a mid-priced (< $500) USB cable.
@yyzsantabarbara IIRC, teejay (Terry London) has raved about the balanced version of MHDT Pagoda as compared to the regular version, so clearly there's a benefit. If the rest of the chain also supports balanced, I'm pretty sure it will offer some benefits. I hope he can shed some light on this topic.
Hi @Arafiq, Spot on advice regarding contacting Vlad about the build. That''s the beauty of dealing directly with the manufacturer (in this case Vlad...LOL)
I run Cardas Golden Presence RCA interconnects & am very pleased with them. I've not had any experience with XLR connections. My understanding is that XLR are beneficial when longer cable runs are in play. Maybe you or someone can educate me about the benefits of XLR to sound quality.
As for the Tubadour; I agree with your comments completely. In concert with tithe the LTA Micro Zotl amp the sound stage & imaging are indeed 3D with the right music.
What USB are you using? I have the original Curious Cable from Australia. It has made quite a difference in my system., so much so that I actually consider it a component.
I have gone through a few power cords, but not as many as interconnects. I have found Audio Envy to be very good. Right now I am using Signal Cable Magic power cords throughout & am happy with those. Both of the above are VERY reasonably priced.
@yyzsantabarbara I think the best thing to do is to reach out to Vlad directly and see what he says. Although, you probably won't hear from him for several days ... guess that's just the way he rolls. Another option is to ask teejay who is very well informed when it comes to such matter. But I must say that RCA is no slouch either.
@pastorbob -- Today I was playing some music via the Tubadour DAC while working. I can say it without a doubt that this is the best I've heard thus far. There is something just so magical and engaging, hard to describe in words. I'm going to keep pushing the envelope and get a better USB cable, followed by a power cord in the next month or so. I think eventually I'm going to ask Vlad to upgrade it to the SE version. Thanks once again for such a fantastic recommendation.
Is there are benefit to using the XLR outputs vs the RCA on the Tubadour . It seems to me you have to choose one of the 2 when the unit is being built. That is it does not come with both outputs. I will be connecting the Tubadour to a Benchmark HPA4 preamp. I would prefer RCA since my other 2 XLR inputs are already spoken for, however, I could make some adjustments if the XLR is much better.
I should have followed my own advice and kept my mouth shut until accumulating 50+ hours on the DAC. I have been running the DAC for 12 hours every day for the last 3-4 days, and the sound has transformed dramatically. I’ve always known that audio equipment requires extensive burn in but never expected such profound changes across the board. The details are there, they’re just not as pronounced or etched as my previous DAC, but after getting used to the sound I actually prefer it now. My system has never sounded so smooth yet holographic. The soundstage depth and width, instrument separation and tonal richness is definitely a step above the cambridge audio DAC. Every thing sounds more natural and organic. But the biggest improvement so far has been in the bass department. Before I was getting a bit of bass bloom. That problem has been solved. As per Vlad, the DAC will continue to improve for another 50-70 hours before reaching its final destination.
Since I still have the Cambridge Audio 851D on hand, I put it back in the chain to see if the gains were real or just conformance bias on my part. While the details were sharper, I immediately noticed the lack of body and tonal richness. I’m beginning to understand the allure of R2R, definitely very addictive.
I paid peanuts for my dac.... You can buy it used around 100 bucks...
Starting points systems NOS dac TDA 1543 +internal bettery, powered by an ifipower in my case...
Dont throw money on many thousand dollars dac...
This one is the deal...Minimalistic design, overall universal positive reviews...
If you throw your money on the 3 embeddings of your audio system,(mechanical, electrical and acoustical) you will smile at the idea to buy a more costly dac....
The right embeddings exceed in valued S.Q. almost any upgrade you can do even most of the times with new speakers if you own already good one....
My grain of salt in this sea of upgrading waves here....But i know there is too much salt already in this sea.... :)
There's no free lunch at this price point and you choose the compromises you are willing to accept. You might visit with Vlad to determine if there is a less boring tube selection you might try. Many enjoy the Tubadour, the Border Patrol and other similar dacs as so many in our hobby are looking to tame digititus and believe the smoother presentation is more analog like.
I own the AM Tubadour III. Great DAC having the qualities aforementioned. I had Vlad add the upgraded capacitors and resistors and the USB power supply. Did not go full out for the SE model. Did not need the additional inputs/outputs or the footers. For my taste I doubt there is a better DAC available at the price.
I’ve put about 20 hours on the DAC so far, and I must say I’m not super impressed. Not only is it not performing better than my Cambridge Audio Azur 851D dac in any particular area, I feel that the soundstage has shrunk, the top end has become dull, e.g. the leading edges and bite of guitars and pianos are gone. A little too sweet and mellow. The first word that comes to find when listening to this DAC: Boring!
I’ll try to live with it for a few more days and then most likely send it back to Vlad. I’m sure it’s a great DAC but it’s not doing anything for me ... yet.
Update: After a long wait, I finally received the Tubadour III yesterday. I decided to go with the basic version but did ask Vlad to add an orange fuse. I will refrain from commenting on sound characteristics until I’ve accumulated at least 50 hours. But TBH, the first impressions (after 3-4 hours) are nothing to write home about. Let’s hope things start to improve as time goes on.
However, one thing that I do want to point out is that the buying experience certainly has room to improve. I found the responses from Vlad very delayed and sparse. At one point, I was tempted to pull the plug and go with MHDT or some other company. It felt like pulling teeth to get any information. I’m sure other folks have had better experiences, but I’m just sharing mine with the wider community. Hopefully Vlad can take it as constructive criticism. Having said that I do understand that there are inherent limitations of running a one-man operation. But still ...
I want to thank everyone who shared their opinions and suggestions. I’m sure I would have been equally happy with MHDT, Border Patrol, Metrum, etc.
I'm looking for a DAC to use for streaming Tidal or Qobuz. For the Tubadour what is the best method for streaming? Purely based on reviews I was considering the Lumin T2 as a one box streamer and DAC.
Also, I'm very interested in the Audio Mirror SET monoblocks, I had not heard of them, so thanks for that!
Yyzsantabara I believe what Ideon Audio and Innuos proprietory design’s from input to output to what Denafrips Gaia design end goal are different though the Denafrips Gaia would be interesting just to try out .Then there’s Ideons Absolute Time now that would be interesting to try out for sure.
Whatever dac you choose you need to look into these one box marvels , Innuos Phoenix or Ideon’s Master Time , it would be far and away the best 3 grand you’ve spent.
If you are content to just play redbook CD consider an older unit like Wadia 15. This uses what has been claimed as possibly the best R2R architecture with the PCM63. As was mentioned previously, you could buy one for about $1000 and sell it for he same if it did not pan out.
I don't think you will consider selling it after hearing it. I will not be selling mine. A short while ago a few of us gathered to compare DACs and without mentioning all of them a standout revelation was comparing my Wadia to a Bryston BDP-3 playing 24/96 hires and all 5 of us agreed, for once, that the Wadia was simply better in terms of being gripped by the music. I looked at the guys standing around and noticed a couple of wry smiles, some foot tapping and head bobbing. Just simply more immersive and fun.
Hi Arafiq, It can take Vlad a few days to reply, but he will contact you. It is worth waiting, as you will be communicating directly with the guy who is going to build YOUR dac the way you want.
It is a small company and has no automated online ordering (hence the wait in email response too). I transferred the payment directly to his account using Zelle.
It is easy and efficient.
He will give you other options.
Ten days later I had my Tubadour. Vlad kept me posted as to receipt of payment, when the dac was built & in testing, and finally a tracking number. Don't be afraid to email again.
Believe me it is worth a little wait. I'm sitting here with my coffee listening to Gottschalk's symphony 1; "A night in the Tropics" and the music just flows so naturally with superb tone and space..........
Mojo Audio call Ben they have a $2500 model that is like buying a hot Rodney unit ,I am a modded for a long time you will find nothing under $5 k that is better it has the classic Analog Devises 1865 K version R2R dac Femto clock Xmos board 9 of the worlds best Bellison super regulator ,medical grade AC filter, and very important excellent power supplies with 247,000 uf in capacitance hand balanced for perfect channel matching Descreet Opamps that are pure class-A, Not integrated circuits like all others,and a few other things made in Newmexico USA , it is modular , 45 day audition, and a full 5 year warranty. His New top Evo dac starts at just over $5k and has just won Audiophilia award and reviewer bought the dac it beats dacs several times it’s cost. I have the $2500 model and spent another $600 for a max upgrade , it is exceptional It was noticably more musical then the Schitt Yaggs, Audiomirror has the same 1865 dac chip but not even close. Power supply filtering ,is critical in digital Mojo Audio knows digital .
Folks, how did you guys order the Audio Mirror DAC? I don't see a shopping cart on the website. I have sent two emails (once via the website and one directly) to the company ... it's been three days and not even an acknowledgment. Not a good sign! I wonder what might happen if something goes wrong and you need to talk to someone at AM to get it fixed. Anyways, I will wait for a couple of more days and then start considering other options mentioned here.
@in_shore I actually considered the Innuos products, but my system in the study is 'relatively' modest .. I couldn't justify the streamer being the most expensive component in the chain. I ended up buying a Sonore opticalRendu which is amazing! But thank you for the suggestion nevertheless ... I completely agree with you that a good music server and streamer have a huge impact on the overall sound quality.
Arifiq this past spring I got a totally unexpected eye opening jump in playback performance after going through a number of dacs over the past three years looking to further improve my system . With the likes of PS Audio senior, Denafrips Terminator, Rockna Wavedream and currently the AudioByte Vox .
Like many the focus is on the dac to get that sound you want or experienced by others for some this is intense focus it’s all they talk about , Well sure a dac is certainly important however this past spring I walked into a dealer to listen to a Innuos server with no intention of buying anything, I just wanted to listen for myself.
The show room dac was MSB with the mid range Wilson speakers the owner without explaining much then plugged in a single box between the server and dac , an all in one box add on that regenerates , re-drives and reclocks the signal to the dac .
I arranged to take the two Innuos components home and 15 minutes into the first cd I ripped I decided to purchase them . After what it felt like chasing my tail going through dacs it turned out my focus was too much on the dac.
Whatever dac you choose you need to look into these one box marvels , Innuos Phoenix or Ideon’s Master Time , it would be far and away the best 3 grand you’ve spent.
At the risk of repeating myself on Audiogon threads. I own the Tubadour III SE. Its staying .. not going anywhere .. not for sale. Best Dac I have ever owned .... so musical.
I have two PS Audio DACs. A DirectStream Junior and a Stellar Gain Cell. Both are wonderful! If you can find a used DirectStream Junior for $2500 or less I would jump on it. It’s an FPGA upgradable type and sounds like something that would be 10k. The only DACs I would consider upgrading to would be dCS or Briscati.
Depends on whether you are open to pre-owned. There are a number of 'vintage' DACs that use the UA20400, and there is a reason it is called Ultra Analog!! Several have tube output stages, further enhancing the analog experience. The great part about used is that you can buy them at market rate, and then try them. If you don't like them, then you can sell them at market rate. Could be you will surprised at what 'vintage' sounds like.
I have the Audio Mirror Tubadour III SE and it is a wonderful sounding DAC. My setup uses highly revealing modified Klipschorn speakers and 2A3 SET amps (current configuration). The AM seems to be the perfect compliment, the sound is smooth with tight articulated bass and the midrange especially for jazz is ethereal. Vlad is also a man of integrity and very helpful. Highly recommended.
@arafiq, Glad I could help. You will not be disappointed with the Tubadour III BTW, @1markr is a veritable wealth of information when it comes to tubes & audio in general. Enjoy!
@pastorbob -- thank you so much for taking the time to reply. You summed up everything so very nicely. The qualities you mentioned are exactly what I am seeking in a DAC. It’s reaffirming to know that the AM Tubadour ticks all the boxes for me. Seriously, this was really good feedback, and to the point.
Based on further input from @1markr and @divertiti, I have pretty much made up my mind to get the Tubadour III (non-SE version).
Oh, and please do continue the tube discussion on this thread if you like. I’ll probably be getting the itch to roll some new ones in a few months anyways, and can certainly learn from you guys.
I have had Border Patrol and quickly sold it, it was overly colored, warmed to the point the instruments sound out of tune. I do enjoy a bit of warmth and sweetness myself, but Border Patrol did not strike a good balance.
I ended up with Denafrips which strikes a remarkable balance between bold, organic sound and dynamics with detail.
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