Curious what people think is the best "value" high end speaker (~5K to 15K)

Even when I do not make it personal. People start to make it personal again. So I put the mirror for their face.

Looks like most people cannot handle the truth. 

Looks like reading comprehension is a problem for you. 

Question to you all: When do you call a loudspeaker highend?

Based on the fact that most loudspeakers which are mentioned overhere are 2-dimensional and miss other aspects/properties of sound as well.

And when do people see it as the best value for money?

I have to admit we also work this way. We listen to many products and are only interested in the best in it’s class.

How can you call a 2D loudspeaker highend?

Highend means in our world that it can reveal all the aspects of sound. Music needs to sound as true to nature.

How do you choose your system? And what is your foundation on which you make all your decisions?

The word highend is being abused a lot these days. People think and believe when they read the word it needs to be GOOOOOD!

Words and reviews do not garantee you anything? Or you don’t care to be screwed by a paid review and you just like to read the words which give you a good feeling.

Bo, I believe you have nothing further to add here. 

Why not relocate to another thread and bore another group of posters?

When people do not know a lot about sound and music how for God sake you can think and believe that you can understand audio?

During many discussions I had with people who work in audio, they had one thing in common. They all became aware that they have no foundation after our discussion. Before I had these discussions with them they never thought about it.

It proofs that the awareness of most people is rather limited. In 1998 I knew I had to learn to extract the DNA of each part. But I had no idea how to create this at that moment. Thousands of hours made me able to think and work in properties.

Without the awareness in 1998 it would never have been possible to create it. When I talk about the way we work, all people understand that it makes sense. We just work on aspects/properties which exists. You need a real foundation on which it all is based.

People often start to laugh when they realize that trial and error is doing audio by random order. Now they are aware that is lacks a foundation. But........before that never have thought about it.

When we demonstarte a Tru-Fi system people hear their own music at a superior level in precision and layers. When music is being played in a big holographic 3D stage, voices and instruments are standing fully free and separate in the room.

Most people play their music is a rather small 2D stage and often the stage is not that wide either.

What their systems do is compressing the stage depth, width and height of the music. Humans can perceive sound in a 3D spectrum. So it would make sense that an audiosystem creates a stage just as in real.

I have done thousands of tests. The facts proof that almost all audio products are 2-dimensional. When an audiosystem is able to create a wide and deep stage. Voices become more apparent and also intimate. The last part has a huge influence on our emotion. I used it when I did run an audioshop

I had a 2D and 3D system always ready for shootout. When people heard the 3D system they all described it as more intimate and intense. That is why I want to use conservatorium students during presentations. So people can learn what I did learn and experience during small classical live concerts.

Music is in my life one of the most important things in life. It is my goal to bring all people more close to the emotion of the music. To feel the connection and become one with their music.

Forgive them for they know not what they do. 😳

I am not God or Jesus. You need to focus more on the facts. And what sound is and how music works. We are not talking about rocket science. People need to get out of their lazy chair and read about music and how our emotion works. 

Like the people who work in audio needs to spend a lot more time in doing research in both sound and vision. And spend time in learning more about sound&vision.

We have access to a lot of data by the internet. People don't use it enough. When I write something people always make it so personal. That is why I stopped using brands and products. They still make it personal or they focus only on products.

It is not about me. You need to look further. People are always talking about brands and products. I can garantee you for 100% that this will never bring you that far. Audio is all about sound. And sound is all about the properties it owns. When you do not start to learn to understand it. You will always limit yourself with an incomplete trial and error created system. With even many faults and limitations.

Audio is all about sound and music. The question for all people is.....what do you prefer to hear?

The truth or the thing you would like to hear. Even if you know it is not true.

The facts proof that when you do audio by trail and error it is impossible to understand the steps you make. And you will never be able to understand what each part you changed really does. This is the main reason why so many people are always in a circle changing parts within their system.

In the last 2 years I had many conversations with people who also work in audio for a long time. The agreed that the way audio is being done is not the right way to give people the best results. I think this is what needed to give people a lot more value for their money.

In over 20 years of time I met too many people who where never focused on listening to music. Often when I visited people I was stunned how little music people owned. The money you spend on your system can only be a good investment when you use it each single day. And it gives you a big smile on your face whenever you use it .

Trial and error will always create systems which miss different aspects of sound. This has nothing to do with personal taste. We are talking about facts. You always will need all the different aspects/properties of sound to experience the emotion your music possesses.

When I meet new clients they are aware that their is missing something. They understrand that their system cannot give them the emotion and satisfaction they hope to find. But they do not understand why their system is not capable of letting them feel the emotion and to find the connection with their own music.

The truth is that their systems lack different aspects/properties of sound. Again this has nothing to do with personal taste. These are facts why those people are not happy. It doesn’t matter what you change in your system. The endresult will stay incomplete.

When people say: audio is a personal taste. I ask them; can you explain how you would describe your personal taste?

Most people hasitate and after some thime they say; it needs to be musical or natural.

So I aks; what do you mean with musical and natural?

And again they have difficulty to find an answer. So they say: it needs to give me an emotional feeling.

So again I ask; when gives your music you an emotional feeling?

They have no idea?

So ask them: do you know how the human emotion works regarding music? And which parts infleunces our emotion. I aksed it far over 50 people who work in audio for a long time. And no one could tell me.

I did read a lot about the human emotion, and I know all the parts and how it works.

Even when I ask people could you decribe your personal taste and where it is founded one?

Again people have no idea or difficulties to describe it. It all proofs how thin the ice is where all people are walking on when they do audio by trial and error.

The thing what was most remarkable, was the fact that when I talked with people about audio. That they realized and it made them aware that they do not have a real foundation on how they choose their audio systems.

First you need to understand sound and music in general. Even here I asked many simple questions to all different people. And again they had difficulties to find an answer.

It becomes very clear that people need to learn to think a lot further. It is needed to create a stunning and involving audio system.

@bo1972...............

Sour Grapes? Now I know who had my post removed. I buy my equipment for me, not to impress you or anyone else. My McIntosh equipment will last long after most come and go boutique audio company’s are long gone. The fact that both my systems put a smile on my face when I listen to them assures me that what I bought is right for me. I have 50 years in this hobby and sold audio for a living for 15 years so I do know a thing or two about audio. Although I am sure myself or anyone else knows as much as you.

While you may think you are an audio god, you are far from it. Perhaps you should petition Audiogon to give you your own forum. A good title would be “Blowhard Bo’s Corner”, where the answers are very long winded, but say nothing.

Yes Bo, you’re the Einstein of audio. 

And far far more entertaining than that goofy Tara Cable Labs thread OP. 

Please continue............

+1 Yes, that was very cruel.

Bo is hitting below the belt again

The question is what do you add stereo5?

When I see the pictures of your system. The facts proof that your insight and knowledge is extremely poor and limited. Based on the fact that the products you bought cannot reveal all the different aspects/properties of sound. And we are not talking about personal taste. We are speaking just about 100% facts!

I'll add a vote for the Vandersteen quattro carbons. I was really impressed. As it seems a number of others are. If you can get a used pair it would fit into your price range.

Sounds like Why-fi to me. 

I do audio by Truy-Fi, this is the opposite of trail and errror. The fact is that it is a totally different way of creating an audio system.

The whole does audio by tral and error what is based on gambling. We create sound. Most  People connect parts together and hope it will work at the end. But based on the fact that you cannot track down what the influence of each individual part. It always will be and stay one big guess.

I am only interested in DNA and the apects each individual audio product owns. And for loudspeakers I am only interested if a loudspeaker can reveal all the apects of sound including diversity in height. In all other situations I would only be abbale to create a hifi stereo system. In our world this is 100% unacceptable

This year I have sold many Monitor Audio Pl-200 II. The thing what makes it so easy for me is that I can outperfrom shops very easy even when they sell loudspeakers of over 20.000 euro. Most of these loudspeakers are 2-dimensional and also cannot create diversity in height.

The problem for you is that a Monitor Audio Pl-200 II is a totally different loudspeaker in any trail and error shop compared to the same Pl-200 II in a Tru-Fi world.

I give you an example; a few months ago I did send a new client from Belgium to an audio shop where they sell the Pl-200 II by trail and error. They also sold his loudspeaker (in the same price range) he owned before the Pl-200 II.

He was not that convinced about the presentation of the Pl-200 II and also not of the loudspeaker he owned at that time. The presentation was in 2D and there was no diversity in height. The resolution was limited compared to the level we create by Tru-Fi. But... the biggest difference is the inferior level of diversity in sound these shops create. The used amps and sources of the same price range we use. I will not call the brands of their products. names of their products.Nor will I name the brands of the products we use.

The day after he visited the shop I did send him to a client who also uses the Pl-200 II in a Tru-Fi system. He called me after he visited my client. His first words; mannnn this is really stunning. Now I understand that my loudspeakers (brand you all know well) are far inferior to the Pl-200 II in a Tru-Fi world.

My client the Belgium client visited plays with the Pl-200 II what has an extreme 3-dimensional holographic stage. His system is able to let you hear the differences in heights of voices and instruments. And a level in diversity in sound most people of you never experienced before in your life.

He said: you can order the Pl-200 II and you can sell my loudspeakers. He also wanted to sell directly his 12000 euro amp of a brand you all think and believe it is highend. He said about this amp, I have to admit it has nothing to do with highend.

Everything he owned had to go. Because all products he bought where all incomplete regarding the properties/aspects of sound. When new clients of us hear a Tru-Fi system with their own music. The know directly the difference. The client from Belgum said: I knew by the first song that I own an inferior audio system.

In 2016 I met a client who owned a 2015 'highend' loudspeaker of 37000 euro.(brand from the US you all know)He plays over 95% classical music. We did a shootout with the Pl-200 II.

It outpefromed the 37000 euro 'highend' loudspeaker on all different apects of sound. His former loudspeaker could not create diversity in height. It played all voices and instruments on the same level in height. Like most loudspeakers do.

But the level in layering of the 37000 euro US speaker was far inferior. And can be easily explained why. Because the material and technique of the Pl-200 II is much more advanced why it can reveal so much more layers in sound. The stage depth and width was also bigger with the Pl-200.

The coherence of sound was with classical music so much better with the PL-200 II. The diversity in height also makes the sound much more involving. When you do audio by Tru-Fi it gives us access to all the aspects/properties of sound. This creates an addictive sound. 

The biggest advantage of Tru-Fi is that you can use it witch each audio product. You always can extract the DNA of each product. This makes clear what the real quality is of each product.

bo1972 said:
“Audio is based on sound.”

Glad I dropped in..........

Magnepan, assuming you have the right room 

bo1972

And your recommendation is??

We only use the word highend, when a loudspeaker can reveal all the different aspects/properties of sound. This is needed when you can perceive all the detail and different apects of a recording. By far most loudspeakers cannot reveal all the aspects of sound. That is why we call these loudspeakers hifi loudspeakers. When a loudspeaker does not own all the parameters of sound it would be even silly to call it highend. You want audio to sound as realisic as possible.  

Audio is based on sound. And sound is based on different properties. And you will find these different properties/aspects of sound on each recording. So it make sense that your loudspeaker is able to reveal all these differerent aspects/properties of sound.

But......when you will judge loudspeakers on which properties they can reveal the facts proof that by far the most loudspeakers are not able to reveal all these different aspects/properties of sound.

And what is missing, never can be revealed. So it doesn’t matter which amp, source, cable or conditioner you will use. The loudspeaker cannot reveal all the properties of sound.

Humans beings can reveal sound and music in a 3 dimensional stage. But almost all loudspeakers which are produced worldwide in all price ranges cannot create more than 1 metre of stage depth. This is a hifi stereo parameter. And has nothing to do with highend audio or 3-dimensiona sound.

The fact that almost all loudspeakers are 2-dimensional proofs that the manufacturers have often only little insight and knowledge regarding sound and music. Because when they would have know this, their products would be able to reveal all the different aspects of sound.

What I wrote before, I will not name the brands who are 2-dimensional and miss other aspects of sound. When I call the brands of the loudspeakers who are 2D and moiss other aspects the people who own these incomplete loudspeakers will feel offended.

Beside 3-dimensional soundstage, there is another important aspect what also can be revealed by even less loudspeakers. And this is diversity in height. This is when a loudspeaker is able to let you experience the differences in height of both voices and instruments.

I call it the 8th property of sound. And why it is so important?

When an audio system can reveal the differences in height of voices and instruments is has a big influence of the harmonics of a recording. The sound has often more layers. This gives music a more emotional touch.

You only can create an audio system what is able to reveal all properties of sound, when each single part of your system own all the asepcts/properties of sound. Each part what is incomplete will always create a limitation in each system where you use it.

Your amp, source, cables, conditioner and even your fuses need to own all the different asepcts of sound. When you judge amps, sources, cables, conditioners and even fuses on their DNA/properties they own. Again the facts proof that almost all audio products in the world (regardless price) which are produced do not own all the different aspectc/properties of sound.

When an audio system can let you hear and experience all the details and aspects/properties of sound it will create a superior level in emotion and intensity compared to any incomplete trail and error created system. Due ot the fact that each individual property/aspect of sound can influence the human emotion during listening to music.

Humans cannot create a stunning and sublime sounding audio system based on the fact that most humans can only focus on 1 till 3 of all the different properties of sound. You all create your personal system by trial and error. Again we are talking about a 100% fact.

This means you connect loudspeakers, an amp, cables and a source together. And you will listen to the endresult. The biggest limitations of this is the fact that you cannot reveal the full DNA of each single part within your own system.

When you are at home and you listen to your system you will listen to all the different aspects/properties of each part in your set together and the influence of your acoustics and other parts who negatively influences your sound and stage; smog, highfrequent noise and magnetism.

This proofs how complex sound really is. But you need to understand it all to be able to comprehend why the sound and stage (only 2 aspects/properties of sound) is what you hear. Trail and error will never make you understand what you are doing. You choices have no founding. This means that you make your choices on random order. That is why trial and error is 100% pure gambling. That is why we call it audiogambling.

You only can understand audio and for vision counts the same. When you think and work by all the different aspects/properties of sound. And you need to understand all the different aspects who influences both sound and stage.

And then we are just only starting. It even goes a lot further than this alone. You need to understand the way our emotion and brains work regaring sound and music. You need to undersrand the 3 aspects who influences our emotion during listening to music. It took me thousands of hours to undersrand all these different aspects. But in 1998 I had a mindset. And I was aware that when I want to understand why all different loudspeakers/amps/sources etc all sound so different . I need to understand each property and influence on sound. This is why I did thousands of tests to be able to extract the dull dna of each individual part of an audio system.

I did the most reseach regaring the acouctics based on the fact that is has the biggest influence on both sound and stage. But in the last years I also did a lot of reach in smog, highfrequent noise and magnetism.

Trial and error creates incomplete audio systems. They miss essential parts of sound. You need them all to feel the full emotion on a recording.

Audio is all about sound and the aspects/properties of sound. You never can understand audio when you do not understand sound and music.

The last thing what is also needed is that you know how voices and instruments sounds in real. And how big they are in size. And the way they are projected in space. Money does not garantee you anything in audio. And for loudspeakers counts the same.

Gershman Acoustics GAP - unfortunately they are no longer made, but second hand can be had for around $7k-$8k in pristine condition.

Stunning to look at and listen to and completely transparent.

I have the Sonograms and sound wise they are exceptional - but they are no longer made either.

The Avant Garde's are smaller and perform to the same level as the Sonograms

Their newer models are less attractive - more techie looking, but easier to build.

Regards

Persona 3f with anthem str amp was unbelievable, but when I heard it with naim setup, it sounded dead. In the end I bought used totem wind,  closer in my price range 6k. With my amp it sounds beautiful.  

@steve59  I feel for you. And understand. I've been working on system wide improvements short of 2 years now. Though it has taken significant effort and time and finances, I now have 'that' highly emotional and intellectually satisfying and rewarding musical result. Keep at it. Stay emotionally available. : )

I've been trying to fit some large, tall full range speakers into my basement with little luck. I've sold speakers that i've been happy with that fell a little short in 1 area or another in hopes that throwing more money at the system would bring me closer to the event and somewhere along the way I became a spectator. Maybe I'm getting old and practical, but the music has become intellectual instead of emotional and my intellect can't justify the $$$. Rats

Know one has mentioned them yet
Q Acoustics Concept 500 at $6k they are a bargain and for sure the best cabinet for under $10k the Gelcore is magical!

Spendor D7, D9, & A7 are all very impressive as well...

@mrdecibel  I appreciate what you are saying. The Klipschorns  will not fit my space.  I don't have defined corners plus not sure I would want to use all that space if I did.  The JBL's are high on my list but have decided that I now do not want to spend more than $9000.  I have bought a used set of Tekton DI's for nothing near the price of my budget and yes they are awesome I will probably go forward from hear trying to do an A/B test of all my top picks versus the Tektons as well as my Paradigm S8's although in a different listening area on a different floor.  The problem is that I may not get to listen to them in my space necessarily  but now I can take my time finding the right set for my basic $10K limit. 

I am also making changes in my overall system (ie. DAC's, speaker cables, and other preamp  (C48, C40, & Vincent SV236MK integrated) vs DAC (NAD M51, Mytek Brooklyn & several others) comparisons so that may make things more difficult in evaluation.  One thing that really has made a difference is the older Modwright Oppo 95 I have been using. It really is making a huge difference but I am tired of listening to all the same reference CD's over and over again. lol

Rega RS 10s are remarkable speakers if you can find a pair.  Extremely detailed fine textured sound and they give correct tone and weight to instruments such as cello and double bass and clarinet.

OP, the 3 best recommendations from above, that I recommend, are the Klipschorn, some of the JBL models, and the Volti Allura speakers. I own Klipsch Lascalas ( horns ), supplemented with powered subwoofers, as I do not have corners. Why do I say this. As horn designs, they do not exhibit compression ( hold back dynamics ), and I have determined, " for me as a listener ", this is vital in the creation of a realistic sound scape. The 3 Tekton models mentioned, based on everything I have read ( I have read everything on them, but never had the opportunity to listen to them ), seem to be excellent as well, with dynamics. Horns are not for everybody, nor are any of the above suggestions. I believe you stated somewhere that you would like to " open up " the speakers near their max ( listen loud ). Tone, imaging, coherence, all of these things are important, but without dynamics, I get utterly bored. I am getting it all. Yes, I am biased, but all I am saying, is that " I have determined what I like ". Many of the recommendations above are great, but only you will be able to determine what you, and, your ears, like. As a retired audio consultant ( and current audiophile, music listener and hobbyist ), I recommend for you, to take your time, and listen to as many speakers as you can. Keep in mind, also, that whatever speaker you wind up living with, you will likely need to do some room treatments, to extract the most from your speaker purchase. Trust your ears, and no one else's. Take a few recordings that you like, are familiar with, but at least one or two " audiophile " recordings as well with you. Best of luck to you. Enjoy ! MrD.

Three or four of these posts had excellent suggestions. What sounds great to one set of ears can be painful to another. Once you have listened to everyone's idea of nirvana you will know which way to go!!

I heard the Kanta 3 at a local dealers and very nearly bought it myself I was so impressed with its musicality and clarity, that even handled my 70's rock! That's a first for any focal speaker before it in its price. 

Definitely (insert speaker you currently own) the Sopra 2’s.

I own a bunch of high end stuff all of which has been acquired used- All of it is in my office and runs constantly 7 days a week. My everyday set up is tidal to a oppo ha1 Dac to a moon 350p pre into a Bryson 14b and out to an aging pair of nautilus 802s. Pryor to the 8o2s I ran cdm9nts for about 2 years- the B&W stuff just seems to deliver for me- I have been thinking of getting some 8o2d2’s but honestly, my somewhat beat up N802s sound great. When I’m feeling mellow I switch gears to some sonus Cremona auditors and vac tubes but since I’m primarily rock, the b&w’s get the most air time

So, assuming purchased new at or near MSRP.

Not saying "best" at those price points, but value?  Here is a short list I would look at depending on your priorities

Ohm Walsh 3000
Salk Song 3 Encore
Tekton Double Impact
Golden Ear Triton One Reference

Sub 3k

Spatial Audio M3S Turbo

I like JBL, but don't think they are a good value for the build.   That said, there are places you can get the M2's AND amplification for 10-11k NEW.  That is a tremendous value. you are just going to have to use the pro-amps (for the most part).  

But the build on the M2 is pretty basic.  The drivers however are tremendous.

The M2's are awesome.   

I really enjoyed the Verity Parsifal Encore.  When they pop up for around $5k in good condition they usually sell in a day.  A pair was listed last night.  Gone this morning.

A lot of interesting responses but one speaker that I would really like to hear would be the Volti Alura. 

I've only purchased speakers used.  For high end after I turned 25, the Acoustat Xs, Acoustat 2&2s, Martin Logan Quests, Martin Logan Monolith IIIs and for the past 20 years, Legacy Focus and Signature IIIs.  The Legacy speakers were a bargain used 20 years ago and have lost about 1/3 of their value since then since they are considered "old" models.  I'd have to spend $50-60K for significantly better speakers to do what they do in tone quality, dynamics, bass, off-axis wide response (for multiple listeners) and high sensitivity all wrapped into one for a medium large size room.  There are better speakers for less but they give up something of that quintet of features, usually bass, off-axis response or sensitivity.  I'm never going back to stats or panels and horn speakers are also out.

Manufacturing cost does not cover overhead. You missed the cost of IP.  Speakers are more than mounting a couple of drivers in a box. 

There are some Vivid speakers listed on agon at a big discount. I think the former distributor. I have their smallest model, 1.5, and love them.
Look up the Soundstage reviews.

consider loudspeaker markup is 4x. manufacturing cost $2500 double for profit makes them $5k now entice dealers so double down again and your $2500 speakers list for $10K. Like Cars, trucks, and motorcycles I prefer to let someone else take the hit and i'll buy used. I get closer to the actual value then. How Raidho and Magico come up with pricing their speakers I couldn't guess.

Sonus Faber Olympica III

A pair of 8 month new JBL 4367 for a little over $8K. 

There is no 'Value' to buying a pair of speakers that are arability built by someone else's listening preferences and environment..... with the hope that they'll fit your needs.

With 5-15k I would measure, or hire someone to measure and design and or build speakers around your preferences, speaker parameters and environment. Its what I do! I don't think Dave Wilson has a 'One size fits all' solution to anything, because no speaker manufacture does!. Custom environments and listening preferences need customs speaker designs!

Sure you could spend 15k on a shiny pair speakers (which are built on the cheap with disgraceful markups), but what happens when someone buys a few drivers from parts-express or madisound for a fraction of the price, and blows your ears off?