Cryogenic Tubes - Time for a Change

@immatthewj 

My original (brand new) tubes are only a year old.

I'm not an expert on tubes but I'd venture to say they're pretty close to "peak" after 500 hours of burn in.

I believe I just got a bad one from Psvane that red plated on me. 

If it sounds better to you, that’s what counts.

But I would say that if you had been listening to that previous set of tubes for quite some time (as it sounds as if you have been) you hve been hearing, and are experienced with, the sound of them gradually degrading after they were at their peak.

I am thinking it is possible that what you are hearing now (that sounds so good) is the sound of tubes that have not degraded from their peak. For the comparison to be fair and accurate, I would think you would have to have the original sound of those original tubes, when they were new, fresh in your ears/mind.

@thecarpathian 

That's a good question. CryoTone removes the original branding from the tube and replaces it with their label. My thinking is if they're providing top quality tubes they would want everyone to know about that. My guess is they're probably using a mid quality tube. Starting with a poor quality tube seems to defeat the purpose. I'm going to replace the (1) blown tube with a similar tube (Psvane) and do some A/B comparisons with the CryoTone tubes. Not because I'm questioning my initial impressions but because I feel I owe it to everyone to follow through with this story. Also, it's only fair to let the cryo'd tubes break-in. 

How do you know they weren't just simply better tubes, cryo'ed or not?

If this was answered somewhere in here, my apologies.

I guess the only real test is to buy non cryo'ed tubes, get used to their sound, then have them cryo'ed and see if you can hear a difference.

Four EL34's arrived on my doorstep yesterday morning. Christmas came early this year.

Based on many people's comments on this thread, describing their experience of cryogenic tubes as a waste of money, clever advertising, and providing no measurable improvement over their stock tubes, I was simply hoping the CryoTone tubes were not that obviously inferior to the upgraded Psvane tubes I originally purchased with the amp (Willsenton R8).

I spent about 4 hours listening to them in my system yesterday and 5 hours today. I can say without any reservation this was money well spent.

The difference between the old tubes and the new cro'd tubes is not huge, not it's not small either. It was about 2 minutes in that I realized I was hearing something different. It took another 2 minutes to figure out what the difference was. I noticed textures were more vivid with more nuance. Further listening revealed improved micro details. Details that reside deep in the mix are now more articulate. At the extremes, small almost imperceptible "pop" sounds on electronic tracks, like static from old records take on more character. Some of these "pops" now render themselves as wet, or dry, some have bloom and decay where they used to come and go without adding much to the presentation. I guess what I'm saying is I'm hearing deeper into the music.

When comparing old gear to new gear, we often "listen harder" to the new gear because we are naturally biased and are listening so intently that we can't help but pick up on differences and interpret these differences as improvements. While that may be true I have listened to some of these tracks hundreds of times, if not thousands, and I'm 100% confident I've not heard what I'm hearing now. 

I asked my wife, who's not a critical listener what she thinks and she said "the music sounds cleaner". 

I hate to put a number to it, because that just doesn't do justice to the overall change to my system, and i's always going to be subjective. But what I'm enjoying now is at least a 10-12 percent more vivid and colorful presentation. 

Not all cryogenic offerings are the same. Like a lot of tech in this hobby it's all about the alchemy, the synergy of small differences that make music more enjoyable. 

To those that have reservations about measurable differences of cryogenic treated tubes, I recommend watching Decware''s video on CryoTone.

As to the manufacturer's claims about longer life I'd take that with a grain of salt.

5 that he had a hand in writing and composing for the movie. Tom

There were 5 songs in Top Gun??

Years ago, after contacting and then receiving the reply below from 2 NASA scientists I decided to send my endpins for cello off to be cryo,'d. At first, I sent only the removable coupling tip from the rods. After treatment these tips were sent to members of the Cincinnati Orchestra for comparison and confirmation as they had purchased endpins from me a couple months prior that were untreated. They tried them and one member stated that whatever you just did please continue. The result was better sound with easier and faster string play. After that I send all elements and contents of the endpin to the lab to be treated. Some parts as small as 0.011 in diameter. 

Here is the post from years ago.

theaudiotweak

2,715 posts

11-14-2005 at 08:21pm 

This is an e-mail I received in response to questions I had after much heated discussion to the benefits and effects of cryogenic treatment here on Audiogon, this was in 2002.My inquiry was originally to a Dr. Louis Salerno at NASA. As I found out later Dr.Barron who most graciously sent this reply and is considered the leading authority on cryogenics in the United States.  Tom

Dear Mr. DeVuono:
November 23,2002
In your e-mail to Dr. Salerno (which was forwarded to the Cryogenic
Society of America office), you had asked about the effect of cryogenic
treatment on electrical conductors, such as copper, silver, and gold.

In general, the cryogenic treatment has a permanent effect (there is
no change in the wear properties with time), unless the part is heated up
into the annealing temperature range for the material. Properly heat
treated materials will maintain the effect of cryogenic treatment until the
material is heated into the annealing temperature range. The cryogenic
treatment produces a change throughout the bulk of the material, and not
just at the surface, also.

We have conducted experimental tests on lathe tool materials
(generally, high-alloy steels), in which we conducted wear tests for
samples subjected to various "on-the-shelf times" ranging from one day to
60 days, and we found no statistically significant change in the material
wear properties.

I trust this information will be of help.

Sincerely yours,

Randall F. Barron,PH.D
Professor Emeritus
Mechanical Engineering
Louisiana Tech University
Ruston, Louisiana U.S.A.
 

Jump ahead today.

Today I received a box of materials back from the cryo lab and when I spoke to David about the treatment of tubes, he offered up that it takes nearly 12 hours longer to safely treat the tubes than other materials. If you don't follow a careful sequence of temperature control moving slowly down and then backup, they can fracture.

David said he treated a tube belonging to a singer songwriter who lived nearby. This tube was from the musicians' microphone used in his home recording studio, 
demos he makes which are then sent to LA for editing. The engineers at the studio said they heard a noticeable improvement in fidelity in the recordings sent after the cryogenic treatment. The musician songwriter co-wrote 5 songs for the movie Top Gun.  Tom

"Since tubes are composed of various materials, all of which expand and contract at different rates, one might think that cryo-treating tubes may cause micro cracks, fissures, or gaps where two or more materials meet, causing deleterious effects on the sound and possibly the longevity of the tubes. How does your process address these effects?"

@69zoso69  I bet they’re going to say they control this by cooling VERY GRADUALLY, and SLOWLY over time (several days?), and that their totally proprietary, patent-pending (lol) process is better than any competitors because <fill in the blank, but expect some aerospace credentials to be flashed>.

That said, I agree it’s a very good question, and no amount of "we just do it really slowly" is going to 100% assuage all doubts. The reality is they’ll probably test & match again AFTER the cryo process, which will screen out tubes that might have been negatively affected by the process.

Anyways, just to reiterate I made my own determination over many years' of tube purchases, and I no longer seek to purchase cryo-treated tubes. 

@tomcy6  Prior to posting I ran a search on the discussion board. Most of the comments were quite old. I was hoping to garner more up to date info. That said, there were a few interesting questions/comments I ran across and I've forwarded these to the manufacturer (CryoTone).  

@curiousjim Your question (how can Cryo make a tube run cooler??) is a good one. I've included it with the one below. 

"Since tubes are composed of various materials, all of which expand and contract at different rates, one might think that cryo-treating tubes may cause micro cracks, fissures, or gaps where two or more materials meet, causing deleterious effects on the sound and possibly the longevity of the tubes. How does your process address these effects?"

Just to smooth things over for the OP-

Simply trying different BRANDS, and hearing the subtle(sometimes profound, sometimes no) differences is the more reasonable thing to do-especially among us audio weirdos in an internet forum.

Just like many things in audio- thawed out tubes are nothing but another wallet draining, anecdotal exercise. IMHO.

Carry on.

I've tried cryo'd tubes in the past, not so much for the cryo, rather for claims of hand picked. I've never had an issue, but can't say for sure I heard any difference in sound quality, don't worry about cryo vs no cryo.

While I don't run EL34 amp anymore, I question quality of new EL34, I have a number of 1990's era Svetlana, last good Svetlana. I've checked into those Decware tubes, other than cryo, nothing special. I'd try to find some NOS EL34 for best sound and durability.

Lower operating temperature and extended tube life "

How can Cryo make a tube run cooler??

Over the years, several times I’ve opted for Upscale’s cryo option at $8 a tube. I’ve also opted NOT to cryo for several sets (many of the same tubes). I’ve not noticed any difference with the cryos, other than the cool sticker on the boxes. I no longer order cryo. Their plain “Platinum” grade has always been fantastic, and easily sufficient for my needs. I’ve also tried ARC Select and Kevin’s Stash. All I need is Platinum.

@woodsage Thanks for the input. CryoTone tubes come recommended by Decware so I thought I'd give them a shot. I've got a Decware 25th anniversary Zen amp on order and figured I try them out on my R8 before the Zen arrives. I spoke with the owner of CryoTone who happens to have the same twenty year old Swart guitar amp (5 watt) as I do. After our conversation he offered to sell me a set at 50% off, so I'm essentially getting them at the same price as non-cryogenic tubes. Sometimes my curiosity gets the better of me. 

I ran some cryoed Black Sable EL34’s in a Melody integrated very similar to the R8. All of them ran away and red-plated one at a time very early in their lives. Never had that problem in that amp with any other EL34’s. So, for me, never again on cryoed tubes. 
I also happen to own the R8 now and much prefer running KT88’s in it. 

Good luck and good listening!

Before you ask a question about a topic that's likely to be controversial, it's best to do a search and see if it has been discussed before. Just type Cryogenic in the search box at the top of the page.

@69zoso69

I was really hoping to hear a few thoughtful "informed" impressions. Guess that's asking too much here.   

you got the answers you got not because we think we are funny or in any way not serious... but rather, because we viewed your question as inane

"The benefits listed are: 

Expanded dynamic range

Smoother and more refined high frequencies

Increased Bass depth, definition, and articulation

Deeper and more focused soundstage

Lower dynamic noise floor 

Reduced micro phonics

Smoother midrange 

Lower operating temperature and extended tube life "

Looks like the marketing got you and your wallet!

Just go with it, and you'll hear those attributes.

Some of those claims....oh brother

I'll let you know my impressions once they're in my system, hopefully this weekend. 

Whatever it is you guys do during the day, you should quit right now and take your act on the road. You're hilarious. 

I was really hoping to hear a few thoughtful "informed" impressions. Guess that's asking too much here.   

I really wish I could blind A/B comparison test these against my PSVANE (non-treated) tubes. Not having that option means you'll only get my impressions of the CryoTone valves.

never ventured never gained.

Are they Walt Disney tubes? 

Vacuum tubes aren't manufactured to withstand cryogenic temperatures.

Next , we will see ´´ Quantum entanglement ´´ tubes and ´´ superconductor ´´tubes .

Anyway , tell us your evaluation .

Everything NASA sends into space is preconditioned with a cryogenic treatment probably in helium. Generates more space. Tom

The guys selling cryo'd tubes are laughing all the way to the bank.

Cryogenics is for surviving the coming apocalypse to listen to music on the other side.

don't bother