Interesting! I'd also be interested in what you think of the Yamaha EEEngine amps. :) Kind of a digital / linear hybrid approach.
Best,
E
Best,
E
Crown XLS 1502.... real life test.
I was at guitar center yesterday cruseing the used pedal case and noticed they had the XLS1502 was on sale. With there 45 day return policy, that i have used with great success in the past, i bought the amp.
With my Logan’s the crown was very clear and full. 525 watts at hand per channel brought the speakers to life. I adjusted the input to around 3 o’clock seemed to be a good match. I went thru a few cd’s and they all sounded great with Steely Dan winning the show...
I put the Mac back in the loop and noticed the soundstage was a bit bigger and a good amount more subdude.
This was my first foray in the class D world and I was surprised at how good it sounded. At 329.00 its kinda hard to beat. I have no idea what the current measurements are but the XLS made the Logan’s sing. If i read the article correctly, doesnt the JBL Everest’s come with XLS amps? That’s the way it read... please correct me.
Anyway, it was a fun afternoon and the Crown is going back today. I haven’t bought the 10t’s yet... prob June is when I can pick them up... I will buy another crown then to use when I send the 7100 to a mac repair center to get a checkup... I have a gut feeling something is amiss with her. All in all I really enjoyed the XLS and in a blind test i feel it would hold up to many good amps that cost $$$$$.
I want a 300 watt Mac but at 3-4 thousand dollars that is a big stretch for this retired chef... lol
BTW... the XLS was DEAD silent ... nothing!
6f46e9d1 45ca 46fd 8370 73d2abece53b
With my Logan’s the crown was very clear and full. 525 watts at hand per channel brought the speakers to life. I adjusted the input to around 3 o’clock seemed to be a good match. I went thru a few cd’s and they all sounded great with Steely Dan winning the show...
I put the Mac back in the loop and noticed the soundstage was a bit bigger and a good amount more subdude.
This was my first foray in the class D world and I was surprised at how good it sounded. At 329.00 its kinda hard to beat. I have no idea what the current measurements are but the XLS made the Logan’s sing. If i read the article correctly, doesnt the JBL Everest’s come with XLS amps? That’s the way it read... please correct me.
Anyway, it was a fun afternoon and the Crown is going back today. I haven’t bought the 10t’s yet... prob June is when I can pick them up... I will buy another crown then to use when I send the 7100 to a mac repair center to get a checkup... I have a gut feeling something is amiss with her. All in all I really enjoyed the XLS and in a blind test i feel it would hold up to many good amps that cost $$$$$.
I want a 300 watt Mac but at 3-4 thousand dollars that is a big stretch for this retired chef... lol
BTW... the XLS was DEAD silent ... nothing!
6f46e9d1 45ca 46fd 8370 73d2abece53b
53 responses Add your response
I've been powering my Infinity Intermezzo 4.1ts with a Crown XLS 1502 and I've been happy with it. The price can't be beat, it puts out a ton of power, and it barely gets warm even after a spirited listening session. Are there amps out there with better specs? Sure, though the specs on the 1502 are very good, and there's nothing else out there I've seen that comes close to matching them with the same kind of output, efficiency, and low price. The Everests don't come with amps that I'm aware of. The JBL M2s can come as a 'system' with the Crown iTech series of amps though, that may be what you're thinking of. The iTechs aren't the same as the XLS though. The XLS uses the joint Harman/TI developed 'drivecore' chip amps, the iTech uses something Harman calls 'Class I BCA' which, to my limited understanding of the technical data, reads like a hybrid of Class A and Class D - Class D operation but with constant power delivery to both sides of the output stage. The iTechs also have much higher power output, much more advanced DSP, considerably higher idle power draw, and a much higher price. |
Does the Crown XLS 1502 sound the death knell for all the overpriced big buck amps? I am curious! The death knell has been sounded every year for the past 30 years, so no. However, the more inexpensive options audiophiles have, the better a system they can assemble for little cash, which is a great thing. My goal is to listen greatly, not to spend greatly. Best, E |
I have 2 of the XLS1500s which are of course the model before these. I thought they sounded good when I first bought them. But after having them for awhile I started to notice how tipped up they are in all freq. If you listen to vocals that you are familiar with you can hear this fairly easily. I really got fatigued after awhile with them and just couldn't listen any more. My biggest complaint was the high freq. because they would really start to bother me and I'd have to stop listening. I suppose if you have the right speakers or other gear that is on the warm side maybe they would balance everything out. They work great for subs thou or as part of a surround sound system. |
From what I understand with my research on the class D side is Crown made some elemental improvements on the new “1500” series. When I get my Aerials in June I will buy another 1502 and give it a good a-b test with the Mc7100 and my trusty 1967 DC-300 which seems to be immortal. The 300 is a fun piece. I really injoy the wisdom here... thank you |
I don't use pro amps in my hifi rig although I own a few and do live sound professionally from time to time (using self powered speakers and subs often). For my listening rig it's a single ended tube amp with relatively low power as I like the tone of that sort of amp. I was reading an article in an audio mag about Magico and one of the pics showed a model of amp I also own sitting on a rack at their shop…a QSC GX3 300 watt per side class A/B power amp, that you can get for maybe 300 bucks. I use mine generally to drive passive monitors, but it's one of the best sounding PA amps around…the fan is too noisy for my recording space, but for live stuff it's great. |
I purchased a Crown XLS 2000 from a college student who seemed puzzled why he had bought it in the first place. For $100. I thought I’d get to hear a Class D (Crown Class I) amp. Somewhere I read that using the quarter inch line outputs as inputs would give a higher 20k ohm input imp. and be an easier load for some preamps. (The line level inputs are specified at 10 k ohms.) That proved to be the case. The sound is very smooth, a bit soft in the highs (mosfet outputs). This suits my taste as an ex tube guy. The Crown sounds almost identical to an aging Hafler D-120 while lacking the vice like grip in the bass of my Bryston 4B NRB (no surprise there)! It’s dead silent with the gain pots set to 12 o’clock and has become my preferred amp. Recommended! |
Well, I did it. I ordered a Crown XLS 1502 from Amazon today. It won't be here until around May 8th. This will be the first time for Class D in my system and I am very curious to see how it compares to my other amps. Obviously, at its low price I am not going to make a global judgement about all Class D amplifiers based on the way this one sounds. My main motive is to see what it does for lower efficiency speakers that like power, and of course its overall sound quality. I will report my findings once I have given it a fair try. |
@kclone The Crown line is Harman's pro-equipment line of amps, so not a lot of features designed for home use. That doesn't mean they don't sound great, but they don't do integrated amps, preamps, etc, that's all left to Mark Levinson. I do find it a bit odd that they don't have a series of home-oriented gear at a lower cost. They used to market that under Harman/Kardon along with their receivers, but they seem to have pretty much pulled entirely out of that market. I have my XLS 1502 paired with an Emotiva PT-100 preamp. It's inexpensive, very well built (aside from a cheesy remote), and does everything I need a preamp to do, may be worth checking out. |
Hey @roxy54 The Crown amplifiers use their own DriveCore technology. They call it Class I or BCA (Balanced Current Amplifier) https://www.crownaudio.com/en/technology Without seeing the schematics or at least a block diagram it is very difficult to tell how different it is from traditional Class D which have at least a few common modules. So far all I read is "patents, yada yada, proprietary design yada yada..." I will say this, based on the pictures, they sure do look extremely light and small even when compared to Class D designs. Best, E |
Besides the usual suspects, there are a couple of companies who have taken on some sort of hybrid approach, in some cases closely resembling earlier work by Bob Carver. NuForce, Yamaha’s EEEngin and NAD which uses a curiously unusual hybrid designed by Hypex. The last is unusual in that all the other amplifiers I know of from Hypex are pure Class D designs. For Bruno to put together something like that for NAD is a fairly rare and obscure thing. I believe that, like Carver, they rely on Class D to move the voltage railes, and put a relatively small Class-A amplifier between them. This combination has relatively very high efficiency (compared to Class A), small size. On the other hand, things are much more comlpicated, and it is unclear to me that the little Class-A section in the middle can perform much better than the rails. I will say I’ve grown quite fond of my NAD 3020D though. :) Also, NAD uses a variety of approaches to their Class D amps, relying on nCore for HT amps for instance, so I'm not making blanket claims for NAD here. Best, E |
@erik_squires Drivecore and Class I aren't necessarily the same thing. I believe the Class I amps have integrated some of the Drivecore tech, but not all Drivecore are 'Class I'. The MacroTech i series and iTech series are the 'Class I' amps, the others are just Drivecore Class D, except for the XLI series, which is class AB. I may be leaving a few out because Crown has over a dozen different lines of amps aimed at different use cases (cinema, touring/live sound, commercial installed sound, studio mixing, etc) and many variations with different I/O options and varying levels of DSP capability. |
So I found a white paper on Class-I. It seems, simply, like a balanced Class D. http://educypedia.karadimov.info/library/137234.pdf What I cannot find anything about is what exactly "DriveCore" is. Maybe this includes the reactive power handling circuitry? Hard to tell without actual patent numbers. Best, E |
@erik_squires The big thing with Drivecore is that it integrates almost the entire amp onto one chip. You need a power supply and an input stage, everything else is on the chip including waveform generator, clock, drive stage, feedback, output stage, etc. Harman says one Drivecore chip can replace 500 parts on a traditional Class D design. Apparently having everything run on one chip also allows tighter tolerances with the clock and waveform generator, allowing for better sound quality. |
@erik_squires I believe the Ice Edge still uses multiple chips for control and driving while the Drivecore integrates it all into one, both seem to have had the goal or reducing component count on the board through. To my understanding TI's role in the Drivecore chips was primarily in the manufacturing stage. Harman designed the technology but didn't have the experience in manufacturing ICs so they turned to TI to handle that part. |
I believe the Ice Edge still uses multiple chips for control and driving while the Drivecore integrates it all into one, both seem to have had the goal or reducing component count on the board through. You are right, but I don't think the count matters quite as much. In a stereo setup the difference is ICEedge needs 1 more IC. It will be interesting to see how these markets develop. Will Harman keep DriveCore proprietary? Maybe they won't even market it and put it into HT receivers. There's so much more to this besides sound quality, but I am happy to report I am confident the future for most audiophiles is high-efficiency, small and less expensive amplifiers and that's a good thing. Best, E |
I tried the top of the line of the XLS amps (the the 2 Drivecore 2 modules forget the specific model). Trash. Very low-fi experience, no inner detail, dead, just junk. I can’t help but read these glowing reviews as evidence that a lot of people here have never heard high-end audio even once in their lives. |
I've had the 1502 for over a year. I tried it on ATC, JBL, and SP Tech speakers. It sounded terrible - thin and grating on the ears. It now resides in my basement powering a pair of PA speakers for band practice. The best class D amp I've heard is my new Mivera Purepower. The Crown doesn't hold a candle to it. |
Update... The Crown XLS 1502 that I bought came a few days early. I have already given it a good audition, compared it to my Mac on my less efficient speakers, and the verdict is...it's going back. I'll start by saying that this would be a really good choice for a young person on a budget, like a college student, or just someone with a lot of other things more pressing that require their hard earned dollars. However, to my ears, it is not a destination amplifier; not that I really expected it to be. So, sonically it wasn't very good, but I was surprised that it didn't seem more powerful, given that it was driving a 4 ohm load that would have put it at over 500 watts per channel. It didn't sound any more dynamic than my old Mac 2105 at 105 wpc. So...the sonics. Not really bad. Everything was ok, and instrumental separation was quite good, but that was almost part of the problem. If my 8 watt 300b integrated would be considered a model for musical "wholeness", and I think that it is, then the 1502 would be towards the other end of the spectrum. It was hard to quantify, but somehow, after listening to a number of different discs of jazz, rock etc.; I came to feel that the parts of the music were a little disjointed, not all of one piece. It was a little distracting. In addition to that, the upper vocal range and lower treble were slightly prominent and somewhat dry sounding. The trait that I found most distracting was really hard to describe, but easier to feel. I noticed, especially during slower more intimate passages of music, like Suzanne Vega's "Small Blue Thing", that even when music was slow and thoughtful, this amp subliminally made it feel "busy" to me. To conclude, it was not possible with this amp to suspend disbelief, because it didn't sound close enough to reality. Returning to the Mac 2105 last night was like coming home. I am glad that I tried it, and I certainly won't let this experience keep me from experimenting with better quality class D amps in the future. I am sure this is a great amp for it's intended purposes of DJ gigs and sound reinforcement. John |
@roxy54 This Crown amp is a low budget pro amplifier. It comes with full protection, pro in / out connect, fan, remote start, DSP, etc. It packs many mandatory features and power for the money. And it's Crown, a pro audio leader company that's been there for a long time. So this amp is a typical low power DJ amp. Soundwise, it's commercial pro stuff. Don't expect to get marvelous and clean sound out of this. As a retired DJ (and now electrical engineer), i'd say that it's in the right spot for the money and use. We typically use those amps at high volume with DSP in front: EQ, multiband compression, etc. If you expect to get more HiFi sound, this is not the right product. Then for higher sound fidelity Class D, go Peachtree, ICEPower, etc. Soundwise, any decent HiFi amp will beat the Crown hands down. |
@speceroo You put the Crown at the right usage / place! The Mivera Purepower seems to use Audio Bricks (B&O before) ICEPower modules. Sure it'll sound better than the Pro Crown, it targets HiFi home systems. https://img.canuckaudiomart.com/uploads/large/2057154-mivera-audio-purepower-amp-takachi-case.jpg See inside, the ICEPower module, Mivera is just a packager. |
This is a revelation, however I am having a hard time believing this amp is this good. I just picked up a pair of kef reference 1's and did what I knew I shouldn't- assume my current amp would do them justice. Big mistake. My musical Fidelity m6i-even at 200 watts per, is woefully incapable of properly driving these speakers. Is it possible that the crown could make these sing? My other option is the $6000.00 Hegel h360, but spending that right now is not in the cards. Thoughts? |
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Well, two days ago I took delivery of an xls1502 and the ifi Zen Dac. I’m using the Zen purely as an preamp for the crown amp and streaming Spotify, speakers are Monitor Audio Bronze. I’m a professional classical guitarist and teacher and rate my ears as good and I have to say this setup sounds absolutely incredible; clear lush sound, warm, amazing bass, and lots and lots of power. I’m blown away. I think those dismissing the crown amp on grounds of being ‘pro’ audio gear are doing so for reasons other than what it actually sounds like. |
I have the xls 1502 and 2502 also an xti 6002, all were hooked up to a pc. The xls series makes a hiss and some hums from high sensitive speakers, I am using Cerwin Vega xls-215s and a Klipsch RP-250C with Bose 301 and two Cerwin Vega self powered bass speakers, CVX-21S and a el-36DP. Pretty good sounding mix of components not going to lie. The XTI makes no sound out of the speakers at all when the pc is powered off, some noise it does make when pc is on but hard to hear if playing music, the XLS is more audible especially when the pc is running even if the pc is off there is still a noise or a hiss. Now I know the XTI 6002 is more than 3 times as much but it does sound good and if you need that extra power in watts you won’t be disappointed, I am also using a balanced connector by using a direct box and there is still a hiss coming out of the speaker using the XLS 2502 even using xlr cables from the source to the amplifier. For the money XLS is good but for even more the XTI wins hands down. |
I have an xls and a dci4/300. The DCI new is around 2k but you can find them used for CHEAP like I did. Crazy damping factor and tons of power. The bass is better and highs less grey than the XLS. Super fast as well. I think for the right speaker it's a really great amp. I've had some other class d amps I did not like at all. |