Crazy crazy crazy

"...on one hand hundreds of thousands of dead people through gross incompetence."

MC, You seem to have a death wish for your fellow forumites.  You continually post anti vaccine links, even though it is clear to any rational, free thinking individual that the Covid-19 vaccines are safe and effective.  The VAERS site mentioned in your youtube link is from a US Health and Human Services group that compiles all adverse events reported to it following any and all vaccinations.  There have been a lot of vaccinations in 2021 which is reflected by an increase in reports.  The fact that the Covid-19 vaccines are in the news daily has undoubtedly caused an increase in reported events also.  Like me, if you get a slightly sore arm following a vaccination, you are free to report it as an adverse event.  Minor sniffles and a headache like I typically get from the temporary inflammation following a flu vaccination, go ahead and report it.  Temporary fast heartbeat, temporary slow heartbeat, let em know.  Dizziness, confusion, changes in eyesight or hearing, tell them.  They are obligated to include any and all reports in their summary reports.  

But, be aware that the VAERS site itself states that a causal relationship between the adverse event and the vaccination cannot be established by the data.  They continue “Some adverse events might be caused by vaccination and others might be coincidental and not related to vaccination. Just because an adverse event happened after a person received a vaccine does not mean the vaccine caused the adverse event“.   There is not a control group to compare the data with, which makes most of the data data pretty much meaningless, unless a specific adverse event shows up that is unusually high compared to the unvaccinated and can be explored further.  As of August 13, 2021 the VAERS system had documented 497 cases of myocarditis and about 100 cases of Guillain Barre Syndrome.  These have been studied in greater detail and they do in fact seem to be vaccine related.  Out of 200 million vaccinated, the incidence of these events is miniscule and is dwarfed by the number of lives saved by the vaccines.  Over the summer, YaleNews reported that the estimated number of lives saved by the Covid-19 vaccines approaches 279,000 as well as 1.25 million hospitalizations prevented.

So, I’ve got to ask you what on earth is your motivation to mislead people ?  I am really curious about this.

So you have an alternative reality, just like KellyAnne?   Nothing I have said here is untrue.  Facts as posted by the US Dept of HHS on the VAERS site and an estimate by Yale, yeah, that Yale.    You really are a piece of work.

Just 3 weeks ago, in a September 6th 2021 interview for TheAge, a Victoria Aus. news site had a story with a headline “Almost all COVID-19 patients in Victorian hospitals are unvaccinated: Foley” a quote from Health Minister Martin Foley who is speaking in your youtube video.  “Ninety-two people are in hospital as a result of infections driven by the Delta coronavirus variant but only one of the cases in the state’s hospital system on Sunday was fully vaccinated.”  A copied and pasted quote from the story.  I find it very difficult to believe that the Covid infection demographics have changed so dramatically in 3 weeks.  It seems more likely that he misspoke when mentioning the 78 as a percentage rather than 78 of the 375 in hospital are vaccinated.  I don’t have access to the raw numbers, but of the numbers he mentioned in the video (375 in hospital, 81 in icu, 61 on vent), “78% were vaccinated” is the only number mentioned as a percentage, likely in error.  It would be just like a right wing youtuber to capitalize on a misstatement like this for clicks.  I’ll take the written statements as fact.

@jond,
"I don’t just "believe what I’m told" I read incessantly and do research the difference being I research facts and not crackpot conspiracy theories. This has led me to be vaccinated."


I hope its working for you, but just for the record, can I ask just how protected you now feel?

Up to the 95% as originally promised by the likes of Fauci and others?
Or is it now closer to 0% as indicated by the good doctor himself and innumerable infections of the double vaccinated?

Next question, ’To booster jab or not to booster jab’?
What thereafter? More boosters?

Did you even consider you may already have natural immunity from antibodies? Something dozens of times more effective that some experimental jab.

Besides, wasn’t herd immunity passed some time ago?

What about the fact most people are well over 99% safe from this man made weapon?

Or the fact that children are unnecessarily dying from the vaccines?

Nevermind the fact that long term effects of this vaccine are completely unknown.
[Not even Pfizer can help you out with that - remember they have legal protection from any damages caused by their vaccine. You might want to think about that too.]

Perhaps you might want to consider just where you got the information upon which you made your decision. It doesn’t hurt to look a bit deeper sometimes, does it?

Finally, you may want to ask why this ’virus’ still hasn’t been isolated, well over a year after it was promised that it would be?


Conspiracy theories are often derided just as conspiracy theories, but occasionally when vast sums of money are involved, they might be more than that, mightn’t they?

I wish you well, I really do.
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The logical fallacy of innuendo, or implication, occurs when a conclusion is suggested to be true without directly stating the point. This is a fallacy because it is a deceptive tactic. Innuendo is generally used as a substitute for evidence. In other words, the innuendo technique is used as the only proof for a claim. It is often more persuasive than a straightforward statement because a clear statement is easier to evaluate for logical fallacies, to realize that a claim (implied) has no basis, no proof. Note that this is different from simply being unclear. What makes this a fallacy is that there is no evidence and the use of innuendo is a mechanism to hide the fact that there is no real evidence.

Millercarbon _ I willfully admitted that I made an assumption in my earlier reply, but the post by coys21 makes it clear that my assumption was correct and that your youtube post was not.  Thanks coy21.  The Victoria Minister of Health misspoke one of the the many numbers he stated.  This is the classic situation where we can present the truth for you, but we cannot comprehend it for you.   You are beginning to remind me of a former co-worker who was often described as “always certain, seldom right”.  BTW, I am not even going to look at your recent youtube link.  If you have something to say, please have the courage and courtesy to say it directly.

For CD318 - I just had a booster and feel fine about it.  Fauci never stated that vaccine efficacy was now at 0%.  Breakthrough cases have been discussed ad nauseum in the media – you just need to read a bit more.  I do suspect that additional vaccinations against Covid -19 will be recommended in the future, just as influenza vaccines are recommended every single year.  You really need to read a lot more.  No one that has not been infected or vaccinated has any “natural immunity” to Covid-19.  If you have been infected, there is no way to determine that your immunity is “dozens of times” more effective than vaccination.  Both degrade over time.  Herd immunity to the original Covid-19 alpha variant was originally estimated to be at about 70% or so total immunity.  We might be approaching that number with infections and vaccinations combined, but Delta changed everything with regard to numerical estimates of herd immunity, so it is likely now about 90 or 95% ? not sure.  We will likely never approach that number thanks to some of those involved in this conversation.   Do you read anything at all?  99% of people are not anywhere near safe from the effects of this virus.  You must be from another planet.  Adverse effects from vaccinations predominantly are immunological in nature and typically occur very early, days, weeks, not years later.  Do you know what the long term effects are of the hot dog you had for lunch?  How long term?  Very recent studies show that about 36 minutes of lifetime is lost for each hot dog you have ever eaten.  I've had a few.  As published in many major medical journals, the virus was identified, isolated, sequenced, replication rates studied, and cell culture characteristics were documented back in March of LAST year.  Do you even know how to read or use Google?  

Mahgister – From reading the forums, I first thought you were a bit different, but I have come to appreciate your posts, approach, and insight.  Different can be good.  Words to live by.  I checked your links and though the Flemmingmethod post may have some pertinent information, there is just too much info to digest quickly from the link you provided.  I will try to check it out later.  Geert Vanden Bossche seems to have some credibility.  Vaccine leakage is really more a characteristic of a mutating virus, and doesn’t imply that there is a problem with the vaccine.  These mRNA vaccines were developed quickly to target a very specific protein.  With mutations occurring (it’s what viruses naturally do), very specific vaccines might show some limitations.  The alternative is to not have a vaccine at all right now, and have millions more dead, while we wait in lockdown conditions for a better vaccine.  I am certain that work is continuing to make improved Covid vaccines.

These mRNA vaccines were developed quickly to target a very specific protein. With mutations occurring (it’s what viruses naturally do), very specific vaccines might show some limitations. The alternative is to not have a vaccine at all right now, and have millions more dead, while we wait in lockdown conditions for a better vaccine. I am certain that work is continuing to make improved Covid vaccines.

Mahgister – From reading the forums, I first thought you were a bit different, but I have come to appreciate your posts, approach, and insight.  Different can be good.  Words to live by.

The alternative is to not have a vaccine at all right now, and have millions more dead, while we wait in lockdown conditions for a better vaccine.

I will apologize in advance for the length of this, but the questions and issues are complex and cannot be addressed easily.  I am also going to publicly apologize to CD318 as my remarks to him last night were out of line, and I regretted them almost as soon as I hit submit.  Questions in a public forum need to always be welcome and never discouraged.  This is mainly a response to a few individuals I have been debating with, so if you have no interest in reading it, please ignore it.

At some level, I get the freedom issue.  In the US, we have a long history of well defined human rights that are guaranteed to us as individuals.  Free speech, religious choice, assembly, voting rights, bearing arms, etc. are all guaranteed to us by the Constitution, and cannot be taken away.  We also enjoy a multitude of undefined additional freedoms every single day.  Freedom to travel, what to wear, what to eat for breakfast, what kind of music to enjoy.  There are limits here though.  I have to wear shoes and a shirt to enter almost any public business, I cannot play my music so loud that I create a public nuisance.  And maybe someday, the government will mandate that all corn production go into the production of ethanol fuel, so maybe I will not be able to have corn flakes for breakfast.

Freedom is discussed every day by some, and often not even given a second thought by most.  I contend that there are some freedoms that really matter, and some that matter not so much.  Take away my right to vote, and  I will be marching in the street.  Take away my corn flakes by government mandate, and I will happily switch to raisin bran.

Several times a week we see cell phone footage of an airline passenger getting into a fist fight with a flight attendant who asks the traveler to put on a mask.  I am going to contend that mandates for mask wearing, social distancing, a reduced number of patrons in a restaurant or a bar are not the draconian infringements that some people claim, but well intentioned directives.  

The reduction or loss of business for restaurants, bars and mass attendance businesses was a serious side effect of the pandemic, and though the government tried to help with temporary monetary assistance programs for individuals and small businesses, all is not well.  Jobs were lost that will likely not come back.  Many/ most urban office buildings bars and restaurants still do not have full occupancy and many are still suffering.  These businesses would have suffered an extreme loss of customer base in any event due to the pandemic itself.  Personally, I would not have gone into a bar, restaurant, gym or concert last year at this time even if they were open.

There is indirect evidence that these mandates were incredibly successful at limiting the speed of spread of Covid-19.  It cannot be proven what the numbers of infections would have been without mandated behavior limits, but anecdotally, last season due to the mandates in place, the US cases of influenza resulting in death were reduced from about 30,000 during the 2019/20 flu season to just 646 during the 2020/21 flu season an incredible decrease of 98%.  It is easy to argue that without the limits on our (lesser) freedoms, at least hundreds of thousands of additional lives in the US would have been lost due to uncontrolled spread of Covid-19.  The governments of most of the industrialized countries of the world made similar calculated decisions to limit some freedoms in order to save lives.  Exceedingly difficult decisions to make.

Sweden was mentioned as an example of a successful alternative.  The numbers show that Sweden experienced a similar sharp economic downturn during 2020 with their GDP declined 2.8%, compared to declines of 2.8%, 2.7%, and 0.8% for their most comparable neighboring countries, Finland, Denmark, and Norway respectively (Nordicstatistics.org), each of which had taken some lockdown measures.  According to worldometers , the death rates per 100K in Sweden are about 3 fold to 5 fold higher and infection rates are also 2 to 3 fold higher than their Scandanavian counterparts.  Was staying mostly open really worth the cost?

You have more confidence in social behavior than I do.  I think that for the most part, people are predominantly ill-informed about public health matters and when given a choice many would make selfish decisions in their own best interests that would have adverse effects on everyone else.  Therefore, we have laws governing our behavior.  It might be desirable to some to drive 130MPH, and to ignore stop signs.  Governments enact rules and laws to protect commerce, personal property, and other people’s rights to travel safely.  I don’t think that anyone really takes issue with those laws.

Ah, but enforced vaccination is different people say.  I remember requirements for vaccinations for measles, mumps, polio, and probably others that I do not recall, in order to attend grade school.  Vaccinations have been required for some international travel for many years.  I had to receive a Hepatitis B vaccination in order to keep my job.  Is Covid-19 vaccination any different?  Perhaps if I fear getting Covid, I should get myself vaccinated, mask up, stay home, and let other individuals be free do as they please.  Maybe, also I need to drive a halftrack, and change my work and shopping hours to let others drive 130MPH and ignore stop signs if they feel like it.

In any case, the Covid vaccine is not actually forced into peoples arms.  You are given a choice to get vaccinated or submit to weekly testing, or to get vaccinated or lose your job, or to get vaccinated or not be allowed to travel.  Harsh rules, no question, but for the safety of society, maybe a reasonable approach.

I am not so sure that there are reasonable, effective, affordable treatment options.  Chloroquine, and Ivermectin have been touted as treatment options, but when tested rigorously, they have come up short.  Remdesivir shows promise, but has a typical treatment cost of over $3,000 and is useful only after you have been infected.  Same story with convalescent plasma which has recently been shown to not be as effective as hoped.  Monoclonal antibody treatment seems to be effective but comes with a price tag exceeding $2000 per infusion, and again only an option after you have been infected and likely have been publicly contagious for days.

I know there are R & D costs, distribution costs, etc associated with vaccine production, but as a consumer, receiving the vaccinations have cost me exactly $0.  They are pre-emptive, work well, and have been shown to be safe in the arms of billions of people throughout the world.