FWIW, I would be HAPPY to pay for an audition. I think this would alleviate this whole mess.
Could I be a Retail Wretch?
I started a discussion here this morning to get some feedback on whether an external DAC would make an appreciable improvement over an internal processor’s DAC. During the discussion, I said that I typically visit a local audio dealer, to experience the equipment and then, comparison shop to find the best deal. The particular dealer I was referring to, emails me weekly, sends postcards monthly and catalogs quarterly. It’s always with an invitation to “see and hear the difference”. So I visit, and occasionally buy some small ticket items. But, when it comes to spending thousands on nationally available equipment, I don’t feel any obligation to limit my shopping to that one location.
When I shared my buying habits with the forum, I received responses that said using any brick and mortar stores to demo and then buying elsewhere “cuzz” it’s cheaper is just plain wrong…
I was surprised at that statement. I’m a value oriented person. I enjoy quality items. But I search for them at the best price - is that wrong? If there’s no competitive pricing or added value, why should I feel obligated?
123 responses Add your response
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Viridian, It is hard to tell dealer that I will buy or not buy the car if I never drove it. Test drive and presentation is treated as a service on behalf of the car maker. I just bought a car few months ago - 2019 brand new design. This car will not likely get to rental places ever. Do you think that I should still buy this car from this dealer if they ask couple thousand more than everybody else. There is no way of knowing how much, and they won’t tell you, unless you’re ready to buy. |
@viridian If after your auto rental experience, you decide this is the car for you, do you visit your local dealership and pay the window sticker price? Or, do you try to negotiate a lower price? If you do choose to negotiate and the dealer tells you the sticker price is firm - what would your decision be? |
Well GW, compare two scenarios. 1. You do your internet research and buy something. But it's not what you want. You sell it at a loss of $2000. 2. You audition that equipment and decide it's not for you. You buy something else instead. See the difference? That audition was worth $2000. And you won't pay a dime? |
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"...as long as they are in the ball park, I will give them the business, as their service is stellar..." I'd do it this way I'll haggle with the B&M who let me audition, to as near as I can to the online price plus shipping to give the B&M a chance to get my business. If it's off a few bucks I'll get from the B&M. Call it idealisticl but nowadays I try to support local b&m's because when they're gone there'll be no one left to display what we want to buy. |
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Well terry9 1. I wouldn’t have spent $5800 for a $7000 list item online, if that item wasn’t returnable. Plus, it’s the perfect audition, in my room, with my gear. No loss, great demo. 2. I audition that equipment and decide it's not for me. I buy something else instead. Agreed. Do you see a difference? I don’t. So, I wouldn’t pay a dime for an in-store audition, considering it would cost me $1200. |
gwbeers, I am sorry up front if I am wrong, but I can’t help but believe that when you go into a brick and mortar store and test their equipment you already know that you are not going to buy it from them, but will purchase online. Why do I think that? Because no one is naïve enough and has been hiding their head in the sand long enough to not know that online dealers do not have the overhead that a brick and mortar stores have and by and large need to charge more. I will tell you one thing, get ready for the impact of the recent Supreme Court decision that online retailers are now required to collect sales taxes on purchases, unlike before. This will add another 6% or so to your (and my) purchase costs. Now, if you go into the bricks and mortar store and tell them that you want to listen to their equipment but will pay the vendor that sells it for the least, that's being a man upfront. By and large, what I am writing is geared towards dedicated audio stores, not so much Best Buys type stores. |
jetter, sure all is in the intentions, but I also feel that demoing equipment is a part of manufacturer's service thru the dealer in order to promote their product. I cannot imagine car maker authorizing any dealership that doesn't provide test drives or charges for it. Honda wants me to buy their car and not the Ford, no matter where. Also, dividing all available sources into local stores and internet only stores is oversimplification, since many brick and mortar stores, including local one, have websites and sell over internet as well (that's how I bought my current speakers). I will always give my local store a chance to compete wiling to pay more (to support them), but will buy somewhere else if they are unreasonable (greedy). |
jetter, There’s no reason to feel sorry. I understand your point completely. However, if you look at some of the earlier posts here, you’ll see the shops I bought from, after my online searches ,are B&M shops with web and e-commerce sites, one does charge me tax (8.625%) and occasionally shipping. I do shop my local dealer for sundries and ironically he’s very competitive with those. But on bigger ticket brand names, there’s no flex. So, I don’t feel an obligation to pay him $7000 plus tax for the exact same item that another reputable, authorized dealer sells me for $5875 that included tax and shipping. You did make me wonder, if Mcintosh authorizes dealers who don't have B&M showrooms. I know there's a McIntosh presence on Amazon, but it's for third party sellers who sell through Amazon for their logistics. Most of the search results I come across are B&M sites who advertise items either at list, "call for price" or "not available online". |
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Not sure if they still do this, but Guitar Center had a computer station designated for shoppers to look up pricing on line (only new stuff) to compare it to their pricing of the same item, and if you found something for less, even if it was "sale priced," they would sell you the thing for that price. A great idea. |
Guitar Center is an American music retailer chain. It is the largest company of its kind with 269 locations in the United States. They dominate the industry already. So they also dominate pricing. Not sure what they bring to the discussion. In the case of the guitar center, it is them stabbing everyone else. Because they can. That's what the computer station was about, IMO. |
About a year ago, mostly out of curiosity, I asked Gryphon distributor for a current price list thru email. Next day I got the complete price list and also another email from a local dealer inviting me to come listen to Gryphon. Now that's different, they invited me. So if you come to a dealer and say that you have no intention to buy anything at the moment and you are still invited to audition that's alright. No, I still didn't go to listen to Gryphon because I was not going to buy anything but I could have. |
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Everyone has different life experience and a different perspective of right and wrong. In my late teens, I worked for a HiFi chain, later I have worked as a manufacturer, a manufacturers rep and have owned my own HiFi Retail Store. If I spend time at a dealer and am going to purchase an item that they sold me on, I will certainly give them a chance to match a price or see how close they can come. For me, the retailer has earned this. I have however been to retailers that their goal is to sell what they have.... period. Being old and educated for decades in Audio, it is easy to spot someone selling rather than listening to your interest and trying to help. I don't feel obligated to these salesmen. |
There’s no denying that the buying strategy of Showrooming is real. It evolved from a technology that will continue to grow and continue to change the way we shop. I understand that some consider it a questionable consumer behavior that can have a negative effect on retail structures and competitive relationships. But, if Showrooming is a known and present consumer behavior, isn’t it incumbent upon the business to respond with a competitive strategy? |
"In the case of the guitar center, it is them stabbing everyone else. Because they can." Maybe they cannot... "Sales have fallen off sharply in recent years, which, while a problem on its own, is compounded by the fact that brand finds itself sitting under $1 billion in outstanding debt." "Moody’s warned investors that the brand was facing an imminent default with its bondholders. That immediate disaster was held off with an emergency loan renegotiation of $615 million in debt — a relief, perhaps, of the most pressing concern of default." To be continued... |
Guitar Center was a public company in 1997 with 28 stores that started to expand quickly across the country. In 2007 Bain Capital, a private equity firm took GC private with a grossly over-estimated value and highly leveraged buyout of just over 2 billion dollars. The debt service would have been a strain in a normal growth environment. Unfortunately, the timing was on the cusp of the greatest recession since 1929 and the music industry just stalled. In 2014 Ares took over GC in a 500 million dollar debt for equity swap and there’s been some noise about taking GC public again. The problems GC endured weren’t the result of a poor marketing strategy but, simply a matter of someone dramatically over-paying for the company with borrowed money. Their “come sample and enjoy” environment never wavered. And, till this day there are trays of guitar picks throughout the guitar area, choices of drumsticks in the drum rooms and keyboards with headphones for anyone to enjoy. All available at the guaranteed lowest price! |
FYI - June 6, 2018 "Despite the financial challenges, the retailer plans to open six more Guitar Centers and complete two store remodels, including a significant overhaul of its flagship and largest-volume store on Sunset Boulevard to be completed by the fall. It also plans to add up to 30 Music & Arts stores, smaller outlets that sell and rent band and orchestra equipment. They also provide lessons on strings, horns and other instruments played in schools — some 1.5 million last year alone. The division, with more than 175 locations, has seen a recent return to profit growth, company executives say." |
Let’s see if that profit growth will be enough and sustained. They are running on borrowed time and money at this point. Obviously, restructuring plan is betting on expansion. It will be interesting to revisit this topic a year or two from now. All available at the guaranteed lowest price!For whatever it is worth, it seems the problem was not the price but interest in general. https://www.digitalmusicnews.com/2018/05/10/electric-guitar-sales/ |
There was a good independent musical instrument store on Santa Monica Blvd. in W. Los Angeles named West L.A. Music, which everyone preferred to the Guitar Center on Sunset in Hollywood. They did a good business, and thrived. But the owner finally couldn't turn down GC's offer, and sold the business to them. GC immediately closed down the store; they just wanted to eliminate the competition, of course. GC tried to do the same with Professional Drum Shop on Vine St. (opened in 1959!), whose clientele includes all the L.A. studio drummers (they make Jim Keltner his calfskin heads) and other professionals. Owners Stan and Jerry Keyawa resisted, thank God. The best drum shop in the world! |
Like everyone, I want a good deal. However I also value personal service. I"m looking at my rack of equipment and there's only one item I didn't buy new locally . That item is a Magnum Dynalab MD102 that I bought direct from MD after I sent my MD 90 in for service. They took my unit in trade and I was into the 102 for cheap. My amps were used but everything else was new and I paid less than I would have on line. My last few purchases were with Audio Visual Therapy in NH where theres no state sales tax. Great guys to deal with .When I bought my speakers they pulled out several amps, including a pair of amps that I owned along with setting up a sub with them. They spent time, were not pushy , and it was a fair price, not to mention saving $120 in tax . But most importantly they spent time with me so they earned my patronage and loyalty. |
You write "If there’s no competitive pricing or added value, why should I feel obligated" Don't you think being able to audition and talk to a knowledgable rep is added value. I enjoy being able to go to my local store so I shop there hoping they don't go out of business because other people are just using them and giving their money to anyone online that hasn't provided any service |
Exactly, added value... when I had a driver fail my dealer did all the legwork to get me a warranty replacement ....they took care of me a year after the sale. I live in the Boston area, 20 years ago their were dealers everywhere around here, now most are gone. Amazon, eBay, online grey market all contributed to their disappearance |
This might be the time to start a local Audio Dealer fund raiser. What better way to assure the longevity of our local retailers than by giving them our continuous support. For just $19 dollars a month. just 63 cents a day, you can be a savior. You’ll be able to visit your local dealer anytime, during business hours, sample any piece of equipment and all without any guilt, because you are a member of the Audio Sustainability Society. As a member you’ll receive courteous, knowledgable, service with value-added decor and perhaps a generous selection of mints at the register. Of course you will still need to purchase at list price. Your membership fee won’t be deducted at the time of purchase as it is considered a donation for preservation. To extend the value-added experience, retailers could place donation boxes outside their front doors, for when they aren’t open. Just imagine the joy we can bring to every local audio retailer - when they realize that their community will support them and they will be able to survive charging full list price! |
The funny thing is good dealers don’t have to charge MSRP , and many times don’t if you ask. I bet you paid MSRP for your iPhone and any other Apple stuff you own.... In my industry the MAP price is often only a few % off the MSRP, sometimes the MSRP is the price no matter where you buy it. I do love it though when a potential customer of ours gets a "good deal" from another vendor and that item gets drop shipped and then they call us to install it.... that's the best !!! We install anything you buy from us at no charge, if you buy it elsewhere you will pay us $500 to $1000 to install... or more. Where's the savings? Your last post in addition to being extremely sarchastic is a slap in the face to all the good dealers out there that work hard for their customers. |
About a year ago I auditioned some very well known speakers at a local store. Since the dealer had been so accommodating and helpful I decided to buy the speakers, which sell for $3500 everywhere, including online, from the local dealer. Imagine my surprise when he quoted me a price of $3000. This was not for a demo pair either, he had to order me a new pair. So it is at least worth asking about the price, as dealers want to make a sale and you never know. |
@oddifyll - The genesis of this post was my question, which was in regard to a local retailer I shop at. They discount lower priced items ($500 or less) but don’t discount the more expensive name brands… “If there’s no competitive pricing or added value, why should I feel obligated?” Many responses assumed that I hadn’t made an attempt to negotiate, which, of course I had. The fact that I knew the item I was interested in was available at a lower price and this particular retailer was not willing to sell below Manufacture’s SUGGESTED Retail Price, I had no feeling of obligation to make the purchase. My sarcastic (and I apologize if it offended you) suggestion for dealer support, was intended as an ironic parody for those who want me to believe, it’s every audiophile’s obligation to sustain their local dealer at all costs. This shouldn’t be interpreted as “a slap in the face to any good dealer out there…” but a kick in the pants, to the ones who don’t quickly adapt to the buying channels of webrooming and showrooming and develop a strategy to compete in this environment. As to my iPhone, I get a pretty enticing discounted offer from my carrier every 2 years. |
@oddiofly - I’m not being factious. Please be explicit and explain to me how you perceive my interaction with a retail salesperson has wasted their time and resources. It may be a difference between urban and rural shopping. I live in Manhattan and East Hampton, Long Island. There are 2 shops close to me on Long Island and 4 within walking distance in Manhattan. Your dealer may display prices in their high end audio rooms, but that’s not the norm and none of these 6 locations do. I have never seen a crowd at any of the 6 shops and more often than not, there’s no more that a half dozen shoppers in any listening room. So, if the only way to find a price is to engage a salesperson - please tell me what resources I’m depleting and how I’m wasting that salesperson’s time? |
"There are 2 shops close to me on Long Island and 4 within walking distance in Manhattan." How far is "walking distance"? Shopping and selling in Manhattan has slightly different reality than shipping from a warehouse in Kansas. Some of the expenses are higher and business model may be aimed more towards people who shop in a different way than you do. In the end, you may be happy you outsmarted the dealer and he may not care about it that much. Win-win situation. A month or so ago, a dealer with showrooms full of nice/expensive products (along with less esoteric, for sure) responded to a seriously-interested youngish prospective buyer with "If I could get a dollar for every person who came in, got interested, and then said he would be back...". He did not seem dismayed, he simply stated the fact in some way. He actually offered significantly lower price on a $5000 amplifier. |
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oddiofyl, We actually had fun there. It was not me who was interested but the one I was with. Bonuses are coming in January or February (I forgot) so he will be back and will not be shopping around much. To add a twist, said amplifier may be cheaper in the store than on the Internet. I am not sure they offer discounts on the Internet. |
It’s low rent to use this guys time, knowledge and equipment and not even ask him to price match. He values you as a customer and you do not reciprocate. I’m a GC and people ask me for itemized bids just so they can shop their job out and have my numbers as a reference. No class. What is wrong with people? It’s pathetic that people think this type of behavior is even slightly legit when years ago you would’ve admitted it was a scumbag move. |