Constant noisy tubes maybe go solid state?

One example, having a humming (unclean) coax cable from a cable TV company plugged into nearby boxes sharing similar or conjoined AC outlets on the same circuit back to the junction box can do this too.  Amps with big transformers can simply amplify this too, right to your speakers. Bzzzzzzzzzz. Many years ago finally caved and went to a dedicated AC circuit and power-conditioning station. Much better.  

It should not be noticeable AJ. I had a problem with minor buzz/hiss with the volume on at normal volume without music from a few feet away and it went away completely when I got a power conditioner.

Of course I use SS - not sure about tubes, but I know they can be noisy.

I was just asking a general question about hiss/hum from speaker drivers either ear up to driver or 3 feet away. As one turns the volume up when should it be noticeable and then turning it down when should it not?  Thx !

So are you saying the QS tube preamplifier is working reasonably for yournow paired with your Odyssey solid state amplifier?

Doing some research on this the past weekend having gotten lucky with prior tube pre and SS amp combos along with tube amp combos, wondering what you might be experiencing. And, back to what jackd said, as you already know.  

The QS preamp is a "low noise" line stage preamp with only 100 ohm output impedance, 18db gain.  Your Odyssey amp apparently is more favorable when matched with preamps with no more than 14db gain. A notable output/impedance mismatch more than voltage.  So, I guess I sorta see why you would be fishing for low gain tubes on the preamp side. Your preamp is more ideal for good low noise tube amps, single-ended or ultra linear. When ready, down the road, and pending on your speaker types and efficiency, maybe try a good pair of mono tube amps with your preamp. Its a lot of fun. Good luck.  Look up impedance, matching too, not just voltage, gain.  

https://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/lowering-impedance/

Called quicksilver and no one answered. Left message again. The replacement tube from Brent Jessee showed up though so we are back in business. Interestingly enough, the slight gain reduction from the Sys is as good on the RCA’s as it was in the Philips. So it’s a momentary fix. The Millard will be here Friday so that will be fun. I have a few preorders that finally showed up after months of delay. 

nos small signal tubes are fine - they can sound excellent and are still worth it even at current prices, if your gear doesn't run them too close to the edge

playing with nos power tubes at current prices is not smart unless you truly have money to burn

otoh, i have gaggles of true uk gec kt77’s mullard el34’s hoarded from the 1980’s... they are fun to listen to and sound wonderful!

I had used and loved NOS tubes. After a couple costly quick failures, I've never purchased NOS again. These day I only use Upscale and for the most part Gold Lion reissues and from time to time Mullard reissues. I have a gallon zip lock baggie full of NOS and reissues tubes just to keep me on path.

@gochurchgo 

No experience with EJ's phono stage just the preamp which I still have around and a pair of amps from about five years ago.

You can't assume one tube brand will have less noise than another, each tube must be individually tested.

Gochurchgo: noise testing is a must on any tube you order, especially since it's been established that your system gain is high.

I believe tubes from Upscale include testing for noise and microphonics. As far as "Kevin's Stash," I'd like to hear your impression of these tubes. His Platinum rated tubes have a triode balance of
10% or tighter, I wonder if the "Stash" will make an audible difference.

@jackd  I will definitely look to the W4S preamp. Semi OT, but have you any experience with their phono stage?

Worth a try if you already have a set and you may or may not hear a difference with one of the Pro Audio versions. I only had one combo where I thought there was a slight dulling of the top end but that was a different brand of amp than Odyssey.

As to the SYS, who cares about sexy if it works and fits in your current budget.

If down the road you decide to swap preamps and don’t want to deal with a tube one a great option with your speakers is to find a used Wyred4Sound STP-SE which is a really good combo with the Odyssey amps. The first two thirds of it’s volume control is passive and then the active buffer kicks in. I never had it kick in with the Odyssey amps or even get anywhere close even with 83db Vandersteen Treo CT’s.

Also if you haven't heard back from Mike about using 12AU7's in place of the 12AT7's via e-mail pick up the phone and call him as that's the preferred method of communication for a lot of the "old timers" in the industry. 

@jackd  agreed. I have a Schiit SYS now in the chain between the QS and the Odyssey. A slight drop on the SYS’ volume knob helps as well as switching the input at startup. Not sexy but it works.

As for attenuators, I have a pair of 12db one (I forget the brand but not Rothwell) and I’ll dig those out and try them again. I did use them briefly after getting these speakers and felt they degraded the sound but I’ll try them again. 
Thanks

@decooney 

And it's still true over two years later.

@gochurchgo 

Until you can resolve in your mind what to do going forward about your gain mismatch once you get a pair of clean tubes then there are two relatively inexpensive things you can try between the Quicksilver and the Khartago that will help resolve your problem.  Number one is an inexpensive passive like the Schitt Sys and the other a set of passive attenuators.  Neither one will "greatly effect" the sound you are getting and both will buy you some time while letting you enjoy what you have now.  I have used the Rothwell attenuators from the UK with many different gear combo's and never found any "dramatic" effect on the sound but there are also less expensive versions from the Pro Audio world available at places like Guitar Center and Sweetwater. I have used Odyssey amps since 1999 with a number of tube preamps based on 12AU7, 6DJ8 and 6SN7 tubes and the issue was always the same if there was a gain mismatch between the preamp and the particular Odyssey amp and the speaker sensitivity got close to or over 90 db.  Just  how it is.

06-06-2018 5:23pm by Jackd
...As the Odyssey amps have low input sensitivities in the 1 volt range you need to be careful of tube preamps with high gain especially if your speakers have sensitivity ratings much over the mid-80's range.

Was member jackd on to something a few years ago, about pairing higher gain preamps with the Odyssey Khartago amp, 9th post down?

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/preamp-suggestions-for-hot-rodded-odyssey-khartago

@gochurchgo

an obvious point perhaps

but if your tube preamp has too much gain for your power amp then slightly noisy tubes in the pre get highlighted moreso than if the gain match were more appropriate, right?

so the issues are inter related which is why we have been talking about both - ’’component synergy is the lifeblood of a truly well performing system’’

@yogiboy the purpose of the thread was bad tubes. Gain is a design issue. For now good tubes are the answer until I can search more into other varieties.

You should clean out your tube sockets, it may have some residue in there.

@ gochurchgo
I hate to burst your bubble but I think your spinnin’ your wheels. You said the problem was too much gain with the QS preamp. You are replacing the At7 with a 6201. Both of those tubes have the same gain. Good luck and all the best!

waste of time....KISS

@yogiboy  Upscale suggested it. It’ll be high gain obviously but I’ll give it a shot. I’ll also look into AY and AU as well. Spent more than I planned but it’ll be a test to see how good the betting is I suppose.

@decooney  with my mostly quiet but slightly microphonic Phillips tubes in its mostly back to business. 

Sure seems like there is something else going on here.  

Several colleagues with your same preamp with few issues like this. 

Sourced several tested and matched pairs 12AU7 and 12AT7 tubes from many of the same providers you have with minimal issues. 

A good tech?
Might be worth taking the amplifier and preamp to a good tech, checking with clean power and to confirm if any damaged occurred to the amp or preamp during all of these tests. Or, to at least find the real root cause.  Could save you a lot of time and $ too. Best of Luck. 

Jump on SS ASAP!!

@gochurchgo
 Why did you get a 6201 tube if you need less gain than a 12at7? Just curious!

@aj523 the newest pair I got the noise was so bad the neighbors can hear it. Its not subtle. I thought speakers were going to blow. Volume position makes no difference.
I sent the bad tube to Brent Jessee, along with a return paid label to ship back on my dime. In the meantime I swallowed it and ordered a set of "Kevin’s stash" Mullard 6201. More than I wanted to spen but f*ck it. We will see what we will see (or hear) I guess.

I had similar problems with my Eastern Electric pre-amp that uses 12au7s.
I have discovered if I use only premium tubes from Mullard, Cifte, and Telefunken I have had no issues.
My favorite between the three? It's a toss up between the Ciftes and the Telefunkens.
Give them a try, you won't be disappointed. 

Question.  Ear to speaker driver, or some distance away, at what volume level determines noisy problem? Half way ?  For example at 50 (halfway on my knob), barely audible with ear to drivers but at 60 start to hear hiss more prominently.  

@aj523.....the noise I was hearing was audible much farther than that.  My turntable is 3 feet to the right of the right speaker and I could hear when I was standing there.  

The whooshing sound during tube failure was a bit louder but nothing significant.

It was not noticeable during music, but if it was a soft jazz album then possibly audible at times.  

Much of this is how we obsess over details.  Even if I could not hear during music playback....the fact that I COULD hear while flipping a record was enough to frustrate me.  Having better components and hearing nothing now is quite satisfying.

Never had a problem you got the wrong stuff.

If you want to be an audio equipment hobbyist and tinker with extra things to worry about, then tubes are for you if you think they sound better. I think they heat up a room and tend to not have enough power.

It all depends where you draw the line....some think vinyl is too much of a pain or too expensive or whatever...it's all I play, but I don't constantly experiment with different cartridges, phono stage settings (I set it up to what I liked and haven't touched it since) or VTA (I have a Rega table). I believe in KISS.

You can get as good or better sound from solid state amps - one technology is not better than the other, although solid state is more efficient.

I'd rather listen to different records and enjoy the music than have to worry about things to keep the status quo. The only thing I have to worry about is a cartridge rebuild or replacement every 4-8 years.

  If you try 12AU7’s , cut to the chase and get a pair of NOS Telefunkens, the highest grade you can find . I have multiple pairs . The Tektronix and the black G73-R’s are outstanding . If you want a smidge brighter the Seimens Silver plates are the way to go . Either will out perform any RCA . 

If you have to stick with the 12at7 I would order the phono stage graded tubes from vintage tube service, Andy really does test them for microphonics.

@rodman99999  I will try that after thanksgiving. We have many turkeys to buy this year.

@yogiboy  well it’s not anything to make people gasp. But it makes me happy when I actually get to spin a few sides. No piece over $1700 other than the speakers which I did get 1/3 off. So still a good deal. Looking forward to upgrading my phono stage (Lounge LCR MKIII) to takes things up a notch. 

@gochurchgo
" I think my system sounds better than it has any right to considering it’s all mid-fi stuff. "
 You should try the SYS in-between  the phono preamp and the preamp.
Why do you consider your gear Mid-Fi?

Yep; nice gear.     Just mismatched.    If I were trying to adjust the system, from the preamp end; I’d start with the 12AU7, which will reduce gain by around 60% (compared to 12AT7), in that stage.      No need to spend a lot, just to get an idea of how things are affected, at first.

@noromance  I swear I read they may not be interchangeable due to plate voltages and heaters and what not.

I’ll definitely roll in some AU7’s and SY7’s then. See where I end up.

@yogiboy  I saw a post of you saying how good the WS phono is and I remember thinking “why 47db for mm?” I guess if I can drop down the gain via tubes I should reconsider it.

@rodman99999  you are correct. The speakers I ended up with were not what I was originally aiming for. So yes the high  gain amp and high sensitivity speakers are a mismatch. Add in high gain preamp and here we are. 
But that said I’m very happy with the sound. I’ve had people over who came to hear “a car wreck of a system” and were impressed by it. 
It shouldn’t sound as good as it does for what it is but yet it does. 
Originally, 4 years ago when I started I was looking at Odyssey Liquids, used Pulsars and Cantons. I heard Heresy IV’s on an all Pass slabs system and that was it. 

It’s a preamp. No power tubes. Just swap in the other 12A*7 tubes. Nothing’s going to blow up as they all have the same pin configuration and heater current.

Edit: @rodman -snap!

You won’t hurt the preamp, by trying a 9 pin, 12 Volt, with lower gain.     ie:https://amptubes.com.au/my-amp-uses#:~:text=You%20can%20interchange%20a%2012AX7,gain%20and%20others%....         You're still going to want the lowest noise tubes possible, obviously.          The major misalignment, in my opinion, seems your power amp/speaker combo.

@invalid I wish Mike from Quicksilver would have replied to me. I’d be really curious to know if I could swap in 12AU7 or AY7 to lower the gain. I’d have some in the mail already.

oh well.

Personally speaking, even after visiting a high end dealer listening to $50k  to $100k speakers (Wilson) run by ARC or Naim gear, I think my system sounds better than it has any right to considering it’s all mid-fi stuff.

@oldhvymec the Schiit silenced the BOOM when the preamp comes off mute on startup. Also reduced gain.

as for breathing fields, I live in the center of the 5th largest city in the country. So no...

I would give andy at vintage tube service a call and see what he recommends. He has tubes rated for phono stages that might work better in a high gain setup.

What do you mean? It quit working, or the noise went away?

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


All these problems with valves... It almost sounds like your system is right in front of the house main. Some crazy field expanding and contracting, "like breathing".. You ever consider that? Am I crazy for thinking that? Does location change the problem with the unit?
Have you yo,yo ed the unit. Pick it up and set it down, while playing. I know you have to be very careful.

BUT at one point I’d just about try anything.. LOL I’ve found some weird stuff, BY doing weird stuff.. Get creative!!!!My good man...:-)

Regards

@tvad I’ve looked at the MZ2 but I need 2 sets of outputs. The MZ3 is about triple so it’s not in reach. Plus both have speaker jacks, headphone jacks and junk I dont need Inflating the price.
If I move on from the QS, $2k would be my budget. Which is a bummer. Overall I like the sound, wish I could crank down the gain. As a stop gap I resuscitated the Schiit SYS from my closet and looped it in between the QS and Odyssey. I gave the volume knob a light twist counter clockwise to bring the gain down. And now when we power down the QS we click off the subs and select unused inputs on the SYS, now no sound happens when powering up the QS.

for a truly deep black silent background, tubes just cannot match top notch solid state

ayre gear is what i think of when i think of deep dark black background, from which the music emanates - it is magical, almost eery, hegel comes close to that too with their amps

but you get something from tubes that ss just doesn’t give you -- so like everything else, there is a tradeoff involved...

I worked with tubes for 20 years in the late 60's and into the 80's. Granted, the applications were in communications, a field not ruled by feelings and subjective "I can hear a difference" consensus, but by how the equipment functioned, and, God forbid, measured. When SS came along, there was a collective sigh of relief.  No more lethal voltages (for the most part) inside (try working on a 5,000 watt linear power amplifier sometime. Getting close to the pws caps creates a real pucker factor). I have a tube preamp now, but the magic has limits. If I start to experience the scenarios the OP has posted, I'll go back to SS gladly. Besides, well designed and executed SS sounds as good as well designed hollow state. The differences are no more than personal preference, assuming you don't have noisy tubes, or 60 cycle hum to contend with.  

Don't go solid state, the quicksilver preamps are great and amazing value. I have both versions (remote, non remote), super quiet with any tube (maybe I am lucky with the tubes). I now am using NOS RCA's. QS stock tubes are pretty decent. Mike is a great engineer, he knows what he does. 

May not be just the tubes that are noisy.  I have had some noisy pre amps (Schiit, Decware) and changing tubes makes a difference but could never get a black background until I changed to Allnic.  Allnic doesn't have any sense of tube bloom, it is very detailed and quiet like solid state but has a sweet almost holographic presentation and a very strong accurate low end.  I can turn the volume almost all the way before I hear noise in my speakers.  I would never listen at that level.  I also found using single ended RCA IC's added to the noise.

+1 for Vintage Tube Services !!!