Cheapest way to enhance SQ with digital streaming

@sns Thank you for your great explanation.  Very easy to follow and makes clear sense of it all.  Still learning a lot about streaming music.  Appreciate your efforts.  My current set up is:  Router-FMC-fiber optic-FMC-Macbook pro with AQ jitterbug-asynchronous DAC.  Adding the fiber made a big difference and it sounds very good.  I was inquiring if fiber could be added between the Mac and DAC.  Seems that my next step down the road would be to replace the Mac with a dedicated streamer with fiber input like the opticalrendu.  

@tksteingraber I’d think installing the fiber stuff after the MacBook would be more effective. Second, the Jitterbug is not a DAC — it just reduces jitter and, frankly, it sucks. It ruined the sound coupling it with my Dragonfly Red, and speaking with an industry insider AQ knows it sucks and is reworking it. And yeah, a dedicated streamer annihilates using a noisy computer as a source. Noise kills digital sound, and a general-use computer is extremely noisy. Just my $0.02 FWIW.

@soix thanks for your input. Yep realize the JB is not a DAC just a jitter filter. I was just listing it was on my MAC.  The dash above is the connection change.   The JB has worked for me much better than iFI purifier and does make the Mac sound better with blind tests. (Nothing like adding the FMC’s and fiber cable) I can see how the JB wouldn’t help out in other set ups. Agree the next step up will be a dedicated streamer down the road. Right now pretty darn happy with my Mac with Amarra.

Did this today and I am loving this simple upgrade.

Hi Everyone... I am interested in this and am in the process of exploring DAC upgrades for the digital streaming source.

I have ordered the suggested hardware to see if any improvements can be achieved in my current setup. I was wondering if you can confirm with me if I have understood how to implement correctly. 

My setup is as follows:
-Router to blue sound node 2 via ethernet cable
-Bluesound unpacks the MQA files 
-Bluesound to Eastern Electric external DAC via COAX 
-Eastern Electric DAC to amp 

Question:

1. Would I be adding the fiberoptic cable and boxes between the router and the Bluesound?
2. if so does it matter how much ethernet cable exists between the router and the first box?
3. does the length of fiberoptic cable have an influence ie- 2ft Vs 8ft?

Thanks in advance 

1. Yes, requires two fiber media converters, two ethernet cables,one into first fmc, one out into bluesound.

2. Shorter is better.

3. Lengths your talking about, no.

The FMC-fiber-FMC experiment is over for me.   It was a definite net negative to sound quality in my system.  I don’t know why that happened while almost everyone else reported good results because it was the exact opposite for me.  I gave it 4 days of 24x7 powered up and 14 hours of listening time. Although it did improve a little with burn-in it remained very tilted-up sonically with almost no bass. Even worse, the center soundstage was very thin. Anemic even.  It was like listening to Army of Darkness musicians. I went back to my old config and within minutes music had soul and fleshiness and weight and 3-dimensions again.

 I’m posting to let future readers know that your results may be system dependent. But it was an interesting experience!

Also, my system has a Node 2i with the power board upgrade modification and a Mean-Well medical grade SMPS. There’s 130 hours play time on the mod and 24x7 powered up for over a month.  It needed that.  I’ve found the mod to result in much better detail. Maybe the combination of that mod with the FMC didn’t work out even though it all went into a Chord Qutest DAC and a fully tubed int amp.

Thanks @sns ​​@romney80 for sharing your learnings and for replying to my questions. 
I am very new to posting on here and I don’t really have the technical know how or the vocabulary to talk about my setup or listening experience like the most of you do on here. 
I have however managed to drain my resources over the last years into what I think has ended up to be quite a nice HiFi. 

I’m running a Leben cs600x + Sophia KT88’s into Devore 096’s 

I have been auditioning a Schiit Yggdrasil Dac this weekend as I thought my current Dac might be a weak link in my digital streaming playback. 

Well the Schiit certainly was quite a difference in sound and detail but what I didn’t like was it kind of made my system sound a bit solid state, modern and analytical. It  was doing a better job of revealing the music in more detail but somehow the music seemed less musical.  

My fiber optic supplies arrived over the weekend and knowing I have been messing with my system quite allot in the last couple of weeks I might find it difficult to tell the difference, if any, this modification might make I decided to connect it up anyway. 

To my surprise this new Dac is now sounding much more natural in my system. I was expecting to be looking for detail improvements but I don’t think I am hearing them. I do however seem to be enjoying the tone I am hearing and whilst I wouldn’t describe the sound as analogue I would say it has moved in that direction.

Looks like I might hang on to this Dac now. I was thinking I would return it next week and look for something warmer sounding. 

Thanks again and I am happy I tried this out 👍
 

@mantis007 this is the fmc to usb converter i was referring to…wouldn’t allow me to message. Hopefully this will post.

@tksteingraber 

thanks!

sns, I'm still confused about the distinction between server and streamer.  To be specific, my router, Roon Nucleus, and Ayre QX-5 (Roon endpoint) connect to an Ethernet switch.  So is the Nucleus the server and the QX-5 the streamer with a builtin DAC?  Output from the QX-5 is balanced analog to a KX-5 preamp.  

A MESH node that serves a remote ultraRendu is also connected to the switch, so I assume the ultraRendu is also a streamer.  It sends USB to an Ayre QB-9 DSD DAC.

db 

@dbphd  You got it. Streamers take ethernet or optical input (in rarer cases), use various outputs to dacs. Streamers can also be built into dacs, like your Ayre in which case they are streamer dac. Your ultrarendu is also streamer. If using usb output on any streamer its also called usb renderer, if using Roon also called Roon endpoint.

As mentioned previously, a server can also be streamer, although simply called server, all servers connecting to dacs are inherently servers with streamer capability.

Just installed this inexpensive solution and frankly, I was not expecting much if any benefit. Well, I was wrong. In my system, the impact was signfiicant in its dynamics, soundstage and detail right out of the gate. Last night I made a point of listening to the system and putting some tracks aside for an inevitable comparison.

As it turns out, wasn’t even necessary. For my tube monoblocks system, the impact is outstanding. I won’t belabor folks with lengthy dissertations on the sound improvements because you can discover it for yourself (or not).

My system is 65-watt monoblock amps, the RME ADI-2, McIntosh LS340 speakers, and a 2011 Mac Mini running Audirvana Studio.

Used the basic recipe as stated here with 2 one-foot ethernet cat 8 cables from a Motorola dual wifi router. It’s a stunning impact here folks in what was (as I thought) an excellent sounding system. I’d have a tough time indicating how much but it’s probably on tier with a major component upgrade. It certainly spared me more internal debate about getting a streamer as this has definitely hit the fiber spot here. Hard.

Thank you @romney80! Thank you very much.

@romanesq that is some serious improvement in your system. I will be honest, I have spent quite a bit on components (a lot), but still, to date the best bang for buck (by big margin) has been fiber optic in digital chain. It might not be for everybody, especially with already very high end Ethernet switches (which also do job of reducing noise) in chain, but I can imagine it will be big improvement in most system. Best thing about them is they are inexpensive to test/ experiment. 

You’re completely on target here. If someone already has an audio grade ethernet switch theoretically addressing noise, can't speak to that. Have been trying to get my head around this simple fiber optic cable change and it’s the biggest audio "upgrade" I’ve experienced. My mono blocks likely played a role here but I’ve been in this hobby for some time. Had the original Sony SACD player (what a tank) and I had that upgraded not once but twice. That was very nice and doubled the cost of the unit but this is simply astounding improvement for under $100.

Understand some folks are looking at linear power supplies and I’m not sure I’ll dive in on that for the moment. Have a Richard Gray and the generic switches are getting powered through that. I do use a battery powered device for the RME ADI-2 DAC and that produced a very nice improvement. So, I’ve had to get up to speed on this whole end of things from the streaming perspective. Eye opening.

Just read a July 2020 Absolute Sound article and there is reference to further improvements using audio switches replacing the generic FMCs with Sonore’s OpticalModule and higher-quality power supplies. That’s a significantly larger investment and can’t touch this bang for the buck. It will for the moment remain an open question. So thanks again for sharing this.

Generic FMC without lps good start, get lps on second fmc next move, lps on first last move. Opticalrendu would be most effective if rest of streaming setup top notch, if dac is weak link replace that prior. Once all this in order Opticalrendu can bring substantial improvements to streaming sound quality, remember to calculate for quality lps as well, there is good reason why Signature rendu SE commands premium price!

Have had very nice SQ improvement adding the generic FMC set between my router and macbook pro.  Tried adding a second usb 2.0 fmc set between the macbook pro and my DAC and I did not like the result.  Crystal clear and extremely detailed but took away the richness.  Fullness and bass were reduced.  Sounded too crisp and hollow for lack of better woods.  Will be returning the set.  Just wanted to share that I guess you can get a little too much of a good thing. Rendu down the road is probably in play but really do like the way it sounds now.

https://www.amazon.com/Transwan-Optical-Application-Backward-Intercom/dp/B07BR5BM71

@tksteingraber Did you try FMC set between macbook and dac with FMC set between router and macbook removed?

I'd look to dedicated server vs macbook for next upgrade.

@sns Yes I  tried removing the FMC set between the router and macbook and had the same poor result listed above using the usb FMC set only between the macbook and DAC.  Back to just using the original FMC setup which sounds great!

I tried the FMC-optical-FMC tweak in my second system in my basement - nothing more than a Powernode driving Elac Debut Reference speakers.  The improvement was startling.  More air and detail, and improved dynamics.  While this system was always musical and enjoyable, the soundstage was always a bit flat.  Now there is more air and space around voices and instruments, and percussion and transients seem much more realistic.

I immediately placed an order for the parts to install in my main system (about 6x the cost of the basement system).  I'm having a hard time discerning any noticeable difference.  

I have different brands of switches going into each system.  Maybe the basement switch was more of a problem.

Good to see more of these comparisons. In future we need to see comparisons of optimized ethernet vs optimized optical setups in same audio system, not sure I've seen that.

At this point, many iterations of ethernet devices, with optical Sonore only device I'm aware of.

I gave up on this mod.  I decided to pull the optical gizmos out and plug the A10 directly into my mesh node with vodka cable and it sounds a bit more resolving and natural than with the optical stuff, and obviously makes for less clutter.   If anyone wants to try this out, feel free to send me a message and I can box up and send you the stuff at a discount.

When doing the cheap fiber mod, using  stock wall warts isn't extracting full value of mod. LPS on second fmc is next step, I found lps on first fmc also helps just a bit.

With ethernet solutions, cable quality matters.

I added the OEO pieces per@tksteingraber a couple weeks ago. Plug ‘n play. The audible improvement was quite noticeable... well worth the investment. A couple days ago I found that I had an old IFi 5volt $50 wall wart hiding in a desk drawer. I replaced the stock wall wart on the OEO device closest to my DAC with the IFi unit. As@sns predicted, a further improvement was immediately noticeable. Crystal clear mids and noticeably blacker background. I’m tempted to buy another 5v supply.

Thanks for doing the R&D. I’m enjoying Qobuz now more than ever.

@mre28m5 Glad you had a positive outcome!

I’m going to revive this thread…

I ordered a Pack of 2 Gigabit Ethernet Multi-Mode LC Fiber Media Converter (SFP SX Transceivers Included), up to 550M, MMF, 10/100/1000Base-Tx to 1000Base-SX with LC to LC Fiber Cable Multimode Fiber Patch Cable, AllChinaFiber Duplex Fiber Optic Cable 62.5/125 OFNR (6FT, OM1, Orange) as well as Monoprice 0.5’ Ethernet cable to try this tweak out. 
Connected it first with my Supra Cat 8 cable out of my eero access point into the first module and the Monoprice from the second module into my Lumin U1 Mini. Allowed the system to warm up. Had a listen and didn’t like it. The new chain imparted a slightly artificial sound, air and details were missing. Overall sounded pretty dry. However I noticed slightly better definition of instruments within the soundstage and better focus. I then returned to the original configuration with the Supra directly from eero into Lumin, it came back to life but that focus was lost. 
Not giving up on it, I changed the config and ran the the Monoprice Ethernet cable from eero into the first module, fiber optic between first and second module and the the Supra Cat 8 from the second module into the Lumin. And I must say, that hit the nail on the head! Everything is in better focus now, better layering in the soundstage, sibilants sound more natural, the imaging is better defined. Bass has more texture, overall images are just more solid with blacker background. 
Now, these changes are subtle but noticeable. It just sounds more natural. Going back will be tough. This is the upside. Now the downside is - more clutter: more wires, each unit has its own power supply, just adds to already a spider web of wires. Have to figure out how to manage/hide these wires. 
Overall I’m pleased with this tweak!

@romney80 - thanks for posting this cheap and effective tweak!

The links didn’t post correctly…here are the items:

Pack of 2 Gigabit Ethernet Multi-Mode LC Fiber Media Converter (SFP SX Transceivers Included), up to 550M, MMF, 10/100/1000Base-Tx to 1000Base-SX
 

LC to LC Fiber Cable Multimode Fiber Patch Cable, AllChinaFiber Duplex Fiber Optic Cable 62.5/125 OFNR (6FT, OM1, Orange)

Monoprice Cat8 Ethernet Network Cable - 0.5 feet - Black | 2GHz, 40G, 24AWG, S/FTP - Entegrade Series

@audphile1 Even with FMC, ethernet cable quality still matters, your experience illustrates that. Using your best ethernet cable closest to dac makes sense. Upgrade all your ethernet and be prepared for further gains. Upgrading from Supra and various other ethernet to AQ Vodka was well worth it for me.

Further gains with generic FMC can be had with even better lps, power cords, and connection to power conditioners.

@sns I got both units plugged into my Puritan PSM156. 
And yes planning on picking up a better Ethernet cable at some point.
Pretty amazed after another listen this afternoon. Less shouty and more relaxed presentation and it just sounds sweeter and more detailed.
Crazy stuff…but I think these units are benefiting from break in. Had them running about 20hrs. 

@audphile1 good to hear your assessment. I have gone a great deal in this and everything matters, including a separate 20 amp line, wall socket, power cables, ethernet wire, ethernet switch, SFP module. Some are small improvements and some are big ones. Depends on system and your preference in tonality. I like to have black background with low noise. Have never stopped trying different components in chain and still find the optical fiber to be the best bang for buck. 

While I hate to say this, as generic FMC can be very nice upgrade, one can still further optimize optical. Generic FMC use pretty lousy clocks and noisy regulators, last FMC in chain injects it's own noise into network, and this, most likely close to dac which is worst place to inject noise. So, we replace last FMC with Sonore Optical Module, much better Femto clock and four low noise linear regulators, less noise, better timing for less jitter. I have one coming supposedly in July (chip issues), I expect good things.

Just goes to show for every upgrade in streaming, there is yet another upgrade. Streaming  and network optimization has yet to reach a static optimal solution.

@romney80 Thank you for the FMC advice, greatly appreciated.

But you have just sent me down a rabbit hole 😉

Continuing experimentation with optical continues causing me to reassess its value in all instances. I've been using generic FMC, with lps and quality power cables prior to server for past month or so, thought I had pretty good handle on sound quality. So went back to router with lps, nice power cord straight into server (optical remains post server), much better sound quality sans FMC. This back to original configuration, always like to do A>B>A comparisons to check for confirmation bias.

IME, the two FMC, while having slightly lower noise floor, in the sense I could hear lowest level info slightly easier. it was at expense of more analytical presentation. More hifi than sense of realism I get without FMC. Transparency really took a hit with the FMC, more closed in, veiled sound quality, Decreased sound stage size, less image dimensionality, less air around performers, all contributed to less sense of performers in room.

My take is generic FMC may take more than give. Less than optimal implementation of optical for reasons given in my last post, added complexity with streaming chain may also be liability.

This sounds worth trying, as I've never been all that happy with the sound that I get from streaming. Admittedly, I'm not that technically savvy. I have a standard modem on the second floor and from there, I run an ethernet cable to my Bryston Pi in the attic and then from the Pi, I run a USB cable to my Ayre DAC. Would I just connect the first of those boxes at the end of the ethernet, close to the Pi or would the first box be closer to the modem?

Also, there's an affordable switch from English Electric which is owned by Chord. It's getting good reviews. It may be worth taking a look at.

@goofyfoot I'd rather run longer optical than ethernet cable, less signal loss, optical also immune to emi/rfi, so first FMC close to modem, second close to Pi. Power at least the second with lps.

@sns Much appreciated!

@clive101 Thanks. Yes, once you start this route, it is a rabbit hole but you will find the journey very revealing, exciting (with some frustrations and hiccups in between) but  will get you were you want. 

I have tried etheregen, sotm, English electric, ubiquiti network switches in my system, individually and in all combinations of 2 and 3s (including the sequence in which they are in series). My take and for my taste, more the switches in chain, lesser the noise but there are some changes in musicality which I did not like it. I ended up just using sotm (Router to ubiquiti switch > sotm via fiber > streamer via ethernet). Still, in digital chain, fiber optic and network switch (of your choice and taste) gets best out of your system. Of course, I have seen people using multiple switches in chain, but it is not my preference. 

@romney80 again thank you.

just been looking at the Afterdark Network switches and upgraded version of the Melco S 100.

Has anyone experience of these or similar...but a little off topic as not cheap.

But I did order two Finisar and some fibre cable.... apparently top class.

I will post my findings when they arrive.

@clive101 

I also have Finistar and they do uplift quite a lot from regular ones. From my understanding Melco S-100 and Telegartner M12 switch are top echelons in the network switch category. I would love to hear people who have Melco S-100 or M-12 switch. If you do buy them, please keep us posted about your observations. 

Yes, certainly seems like topic is going from "cheapest way" to expensive switches, but since these come under category of clean ethernet, I guess it is alright, as long there is lot of learning. 

@romney80 

S100 by AfterDark technically is a re-branded Melco with upgrades and a choice of clocks.

 DELA S100 - Audiophile Network Hubs #日本製 - AfterDark (adark.co)

vs

A double stacked Buffalo GS 2016 with clock customized.

AfterDark. Project ClayX Buffalo BS-GS2016 Cascade x Giesemann OCXO Bl (adark.co)

See the rabbit hole I am digging ;) 

To keep on topic, I wonder how these expensive switches compare to the cheap FMC, Cost vs SQ ? 

I would caution you on expecting a Fiber Optic cable to be GLASS. Now recently some better manufacturers are starting to put out these cables in the glass but if they don't specify glass, you can bet it is Plastic. and even that isn't so bad unless you get the cheap stuff. By that, I mean how they treat the ends of the plastic fiber. Is it just heated and smudged on a flat surface or is it POLISHED in a special process? it can make a huge difference. Also, Plastic is not as good as glass in long runs. I am using a 20 ft cable and it is Plastic but it has polished ends and does fine. There could also be some problems with Jitter, but I don' know if I have ever experienced jitter in either a S/PDIF cable or from disk players.

@esarhaddon Good catch, completely forgot about that. Who makes the good polished plastic and/or glass optical cables? I'd like to try this.

For SNS, As far as cables go, I find the product descriptions on AMAZON quite nice, I also have a subscription to the AudioAdvisor catalog which has a few dedicated retailers they like. I have found that Pangea, Audioquest, Cardas, and even Kimber (but they have a long list of haters) are names you usually won't go wrong within the 'Cables' and you can get about any price range you want. I usually look up something on Amazon and then contact the dealer listed directly. Something else is what you are connecting this up too. I was in a So-Called High-End store yesterday looking at an Anthem AV rec, and everything was nice and they had all of the best stuff except the speakers they had connected were Cheap Junk baby towers that were flat, dead, and had no presence at all. I won't mention any nmaes here, but it ruined everything. that and they had thin walls without any sound dampening and I was overwhelmed by every other display room that was being used at the moment. I won't EVER go back.

SNS; Also when looking at TOSLINK fiber cables look at the materials and the stiffness. Too stiff of a cable makes them hard to manage, many consumer reports will mention this. and the ends, I DO NOT like plastic connectors. Not that a gold plated end on a TOSLINK cable will enhance the sound but they don't wear out and change as much with things like temp or humidity. The longer cable I mentioned I got is an off-brand named FOSPOWER, but they lay and rout nicely and have a nice snap when inserting them. Mine had 'Polished' ends. The one connected to my SACD player is a Cardas and it is sufficient. There is a brand named 'Glass' that looks nice, but I know nothing about them other than their brag of using actually glass. I saw one thing you want to watch for. and TOSLINK ad that states it uses only the finest Oxygen free copper in it. You know you are in trouble with this one.

@esarhaddon I don't run Toslink, only network optical cables. I'm using optical cables  Small Green Computer sells with Sonore equipment, assume they are polished.

I do recall reading something about differences in optical cables some years ago on Audiophilestyle forum, forgot about this until your post.

I use glass Toslink optical from Amazon for connecting my TV audio to my HiFi system, and it sounds excellent. I'm actually amazed how good it sounds through my DAC/audio system, given the bitrate/sample rate.

Just an update from February with this inexpensive approach. I had been looking around and examining 5v linear power supplies. Finally pulled the trigger on a unit by Solupeak.

So of the two media converters with the fiber connectors, I have one on the "dirty side" as they call it. Result?

Astounding, simply astounding. I was hoping to see a little improvement but once again, it just made me regret not doing it sooner. 

Again, my system is unique but consists of 65w tube monoblocks, RME ADI-2 DAC, McIntosh LS340 speakers, using a 2011 Mac Mini running Audirvana's Studio software. 

The depth of the sound, the separation and black space all take another major leap. I'll add that my setup is especially sensitive to changes, even a small tube can offer some nice change/improvement. 

Also running a LPS on the RME DAC. That was very nice but this is more than I could have imagined. It's going to be a spell digesting this one. 

Thanks again to @sns  and @romney80 as this is a superlative low investment for big bang results. Thanks to everyone else who also shared their experience. 

Good to hear another success story.  The 2 generic FMC’s with fiber optic cable made a significant improvement on my system as well.  I tried adding an iFi ipower LPS plug to my FMC’s and it made no sonic improvement over the stock wall plug.  Ended up being a return.  Scratching my head as to why?  Anyone else have no improvement using a LPS on FMC’s?

@tksteingraber The only reason lps on at least second FMC would be lack of resolving ability of entire audio system, or lps not of sufficient quality. I can hear differences with lps on only one or two FMC, with different lps,  with different power cords used with the lps, and with lps connected to battery storage device or ac power conditioner. Try a Teradak lps with decent power cord and report back.