DGarretson
If I understand what you are saying is that amp designers used high uf electrolytics caps in part because the ESR is so bad that compensation was needed in uf in size?
You say that film caps have 1/100 the Electrical Series Resistance of eletrolytics? That's huge?
Can you explain for me and others what ESR means for sound and how do designers calculate how much is needed and how does ESR fit the calculation. Meaning the reduction of uf needed with lower ESR.
I have only replaced one power supply cap and it was vintage to Jensen Electrolytic and the Jensen sounded much harder. The Jensen is quiet with no noise but I was frustrated that the sound did not improve in fact going the other way. (Jensen was much smaller)
I must say as well that cap in the power supply made a big effect in sound quality. The only tough part was I could not test by going channel to channel like coupling but by memory which of course I do not like to use. I just stopped with the power supply and am stuck as to what to do? (power supply cap wise) |
Take a picture and email it to me. |
Thanks Johnsonwu,
I am working on a TAD 60 tube amp. Paul's Dude uses an enormous about of capacitance and in his circuit sounds stunning. The coupling caps are usually Mundorf Supremes. I placed the Duelund CAST caps where the Mundorf's were and used a .47 uf value. Man did these caps sing in my Dude!
I wish I knew more about the TAD amp or could send you a scematic, but I don't have one. The TAD seems to be weak in the power supply. |
Grannyring,
Lytics are not necessarily bad when they are used pre-regulation. I use Nichicon 400V audio grade caps in my amps for smoothing before regulation. Check mouser or digikey and see if your current caps are low ESR. If so they are good enough for pre-regulation smoothing. You will need the high capacitance to smooth out ripples and lytics are great for their size. Post regulation is a different story. Quality matters a lot more than uF. Lytic caps are inherently lossy. For bypass I try to use oil cans as long as they fit. Now Paul may have different thinking as I notice lots of lytics in the Dude. Heck the output coupling caps were not your state of the art thousand dollar cap but rather Mundorf Mcap 47uF as I recall.
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Also, due to orders such as the one discussed, this is what 5% of my pre CAST setup looks like:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151063279663842&set=o.209346612428600&type=1&theater |
Thanks to Grannyring the Duelund products were brought to my attention.I ordered the CAST capacitor for my speakers.Fortunately this speaker has only one cap and no resistor per speaker(lucky me). I discovered this thread a few weeks ago and have read quite a bit of it.
Volleyguy, I have to thank you for starting this, it has been fun to read and informative. Your considerable time and effort is much appreciated. Some have been critical of your method of testing/comparisons yet everyone who has tried the Duelunds confirm your results.Obviously you were hearing things accurately.I am convinced that natural materials are often superior to plastic and other man made alternatives as your experiences suggest.
I eagerly await the shipment of my CAST capacitors they will replace the standard Auricaps.Thanks again Volleyguy.
Regards, |
They are fantastic sounding! Thanks for confirming. |
I was told some confusion had arisen in this thread re. Parts sale of CAST630v caps.
I'm sorry to say, that having a 2 year old and a second on the way, has meant my internet time has gone down significantly....
To put the story straight. The Parts caps are genuine Duelund round CAST630v Cu. Their volume story is 100% correct. And is a huge help for our company.
In the future, if you feel you need an answer from me, always feel free to drop me a mail.
Best regards,
Frederik |
Johnsonwu, what do you think of these Clarity TC caps in my power supply replacing the 470 uf electrolytic small caps that you sad were good. Those stock caps cost like $3 each? Surely they are nothing special?
I know you know quite a bit about electronics so I am curious what you think. |
Ok then I will use them! Thanks Dgarretson! |
Grannyring, Trust me on this-- with a film cap supply you can go lower than the stock values of the replaced electrolytics-- a 50% ratio is conservative. |
Granny,
If the Clarity TC caps are too big then try the MUNDORF M-Lytic HV+ Series MLGO+ (Glue-On + 500V & 550V) 4-Pole Electrolytic Capacitors.
Parts Connexion has them. |
Dgarretson,
Thanks for the heads up on that TC Clarity cap. I need these values,
270 uf. And 470 uf. The TC only has 220 and 430 uf. That seems to far off? |
I was thinking Sprague or Mallory computer grade not Atom.
I will check out those Clarity caps! Thanks.... |
This is an opportunity to substitute compact segmented thin-film metalized polyprop technology in place of electrolytics in PS. The SEG technology has less than 1/100th the ESR of any electrolytic, allowing substitution of a film capacitor at 1/10-1/2 the capacitance of the replaced electrolytic. Check out 700V Clarity TC. It may require an expansion chassis to make room, but well worth the effort. I've supplied several DIY and OEM projects of this kind.
ClarityCap NA OEM Sales Agency |
Nichicon caps are it bad caps at all and to me they sound better then Sprague atom any day.
If they are before the regulator, as long as they are less than 10 years old I suggest you leave them alone.
Post regulation bypass is a different story. Try to use oil cans or at least stolen PPE fast cap. You won't need more then 47uF. |
Question for those of you who may have some experience with power supply caps in a tube amp. I am totally going through a TAD 60 amp and upgrading many key caps and resistors as well as bypassing the volume and a few other things. Great sounding amp, but boy the parts quality is very poor and I expect to hear some large gains with my modification.
Fun fall/winter project.
The amp uses some large value caps in the power supply. 470 uf / 450 volt caps. Film caps are not possible, but what would you folks suggest to replace the cheap Nichicon caps? I am think about some large can computer grade caps from the likes of Sprague and others? Your thoughts please. Room is not an issue as I will be expanding the base of the amp with a nice wood frame. |
Barrysandy
I heard the same comment I mentioned by someone else Neutral but not Natural. Mechanical might not be accurate maybe Neutral is? (then go on to say VCap Cuft Natural does not describe them)
I could use many good HiFi terms to describe them.
Now are these CAST caps real, they do come in the values I need? |
David:
To burn the parts, you must first DISCONNECT and REMOVE the speakers from the crossover network. They can NOT be connected to the cooker. The inputs of the crossover are the speaker cable connections side; the outputs of the crossover are where each of the drivers was connected. If it's a parallel crossover, let's say a two-way with tweeter and woofer, I would only burn in one driver circuit at a time e.g. the tweeter circuit only, then later the woofer circuit. Hook the + input (speaker cable) side of the tweeter crossover to the + input side of the cooker and the + output (speaker driver) side of the crossover to the + output side of the cooker. Do the same cooker connections for the - tweeter input and output legs of the crossover. When connected, turn the unit on and burn (Signal polarity on the cooker is actually not important but consistency of connections is). You'll get the green light on in an Audiodharma if there is continuity. Double check the unit for right connections - negative leads connected in one loop to the cooker; positive in the other loop. Turn off the cooker if it's overheating. It shouldn't. When finished, do the other driver filter circuits, e.g. woofer. If it's a series multi-driver crossover REMOVE all the drivers and burn in the one half the circuit with the passive caps and inductors in it (the other half of the circuit has all the removed speaker connections in it and you aren't burning that in). If none of this makes any sense to you after looking at a picture of the crossover, take the parts out and burn them in individually!
Volleyguy:
On the CuTF V-caps, my guess is they're not broken in yet. My experience was using these in an amp as an interstage coupling cap between the input and driver stages using a .1uF/600 volt value. Yes, it took 400 hundred hours or so, but the midrange sounds perfectly natural and not mechanical at all to me. It's possible the very low voltage signal in your phono stage is not high enough to break the caps in as quickly. |
Chris old me they were genuine CAST and I assue Frederick no longer ollows this thread? |
Hmmm, the Duelund "discount" caps have been expanded to 10 values at PCX. PCX is still using the "volume discount" story, yet no answers to our questions about the change in form factor. |
Barrysandy
It is interesting you mention the VCap Cuft as I was just comparing them today in my phono stage. (been in a long time as they have a legendary long breakin)
I my opinion the VCap Cuft is not as good as even Jensen Copper Paper Tube I am comparing them too. To me the VCap Cuft just does not do the midrange right. Voices do not sound natural. The caps sound mechanical. They have a very low noise floor are more detailed than the Jensen Copper Paper Tube are not slightly muffled like the Jensen or the slight drone like the Jensen but if you do not get the midrange right... Also the VCap Cuft are lightning fast at charge and discharge this might be the problem???
I can agree with the statement Apples and Oranges. Maybe I am a paper in oil guy? I am soon going to pull out the VCap Cuft. Just as poly caps did not mix well with foil caps vintage or new because of timing issues neither does Teflon mix with foil caps. |
Barry,
How exactly did you connect the cable cooker to your crossover network? I would like to do this.
David Pritchard |
May be Fredrick at Duelund can best answer this question. Has anyone tried cryogenically treatring the CAST cap, either for speaker crossover or electronics? I have them in my speakers and electronics, amp and DAC. I was thinking of doing this but paper in oil may not be a good candidate for cryoing. Anyone heard an Improvement? |
Volleyguy & others -- Yes exactly, used the cable cooker on the caps and inductors in the crossover for a few days. Not with the speakers in the circuit of course. Also, separately, at another time, did just the ICs and all the speaker cables. Confusing? I talk to myself all the time and completely understand what I'm talking about. Huh??? What was that?????
I do like the V-cap CuTF in electronics much better than the TFTF V-cap variety, and maybe even a little better than I like the D Cast in speakers. Oh no,apples and oranges. Arghhhh...here I go again. |
I think Barry meant using a cooker on the caps?
Like he did on IC's and speaker cable?
Post was confusing though. |
Barrysandy: Please explain the rationale for using caps or inductors on IC and speaker cable. I will doubt the merits of this until I understand the theory behind it. Then, maybe I'll try it :)
Thanks in advance,
Jay |
Finally got the 17uF Duelund Cast cap and .82 & .275 mH Cast inductors in my tweeter mid XO on 3.6 Magnepans broken in and all I can say is the sound is just glorious. Open and clear, lots of air and space, and just the right amount of instrumental texture (tonal color and balance were present but mostly leading edge emphasis without proper decay). Even after 800 hours of play these big XO pieces would not open up. The secret was an Audio Dharma Cable Cooker for 3 solid days. Most on this thread are using smaller values so you won't need this intervention. If the sound is anything less than to-die-for then you need more time or, if you have the $$$, consider buying one of these. They also did a terrific job on my ICs and speaker cables. |
Sorry not a cap comment but the Oppo BDP 95 is sounding better all the time. A ton of detail. |
I replaced the REL caps in my Aesthetix Atlas amp with CAST and the improvement was abvious immediately. |
I replaced (actually had someone else do the work) the coupling caps in my Aesthetix IO with the Cast caps. The stock caps are dynamicap's in the 2nd and 3rd stages and a proprietary cap in the 1st stage. Too soon to come to any conclusions.
If these aren't the Cast caps of old, PCX needs to stop selling these as Cast caps IMO. |
I am back to testing the VCap Cuft vs. the Jensen Copper Paper Tube. I had started this before construction but shut down till it was done. I have not heard much about this cap in awhile? |
All I know is they sound fantastic. Did others buy them and where did you use them? |
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Still no word from Duelund or PCX on the new design of the CAST? Inquiring minds want to know. |
Horchai
Not a bad idea. I have not looked inside the Oppo so have no idea if this is possible? |
I am looking to upgrade the bass capacitor in my speakers. Right now there is a 68 uf Clarity SA cap. Does anybody know of a good bass cap? I don't want to spend more than $50 to $100 each? These larger values seem hard to find unless they are the cheaper ones like the Clarity SA's. Love to hear your suggestions. |
How abt upgrading the internal caps to duelund inside the oppo? |
Oppo is already more detailed on Redbook than my CD player. Hmmmm Oppo getting smoother as well. I am starting to hear what all the fuss was about! |
I have yet to hear from from PC or Duelund on this thread. It would be nice to confirm Ait's question. |
Oppo BDP 95 sounding somewhat better and is running 24/7 for breakin. Still unsure about the Oppo? I wish it sounded like a $10k digital front end played movies and every format. It does a lot but I do not think one is going to replace an expensive digital front end. My guess is the Oppo sounds like about a $1k CD player?
Looking forward to hearing/seeing it on Bluray and other high res which I could never play.
It does not sound anywhere near as good as my CD DAC but does seem well built and obviously does so much more. Today TV and furniture come in and project is now done!
Only one mistake I bought too short of Duelund Silver wire to run both speakers. The credensa my wife wanted if not amp centered and at $50 a foot for Duelund (double needed) I did not get extra feet of wire!
I am getting used to the wood subfloor and it does affect the sound. When the basement was some carpet some cement you would get a hard ringing sound. That is gone partly with all the insulation I put in key areas and no doubt the wood subfloor.
The book I read from an audio/video installer says the ROOM is THE most important aspect in any system and best bang for the buck.
I have less than $2k in sub floor and insulation and he may be right. I can not hear any ringing, echo or drone. A VAST improvement in sound throughout the room with no bad spots. |
Grannyring
Steen Duelund would say 50% of the system $ should be in the speakers and 50% of that should be in the crossovers. That crossover is a big deal! Also for most a HUGE weak link. A nice finish sells crossover parts?
I have been pushing Duelund to use these parts in the recording studio!
My Linn speakers had less than $20 in the crossover parts would be my guess. If a speaker company did not show me the crossover I would not buy the speakers. |
I just finished placing four Duelund CAST .22 uf caps in my hybrid Aesthetix Atlas amp. I replaced some fair REL caps. All I can say is why? I mean why don't these builders use Duelund on their top end gear? This was a huge improvement - not subtle at all.
With the CAST in my pre and now amp my music sounds like it is coming from upgraded speakers. Easily the best upgrade I have experienced including all other modifications, gear upgrades, wire upgrade etc...
These caps are very special indeed. The .47 uf caps in my pre have about 60 hours on them and my amp only 2 hours. I know things will get even better over the next 100 or so hours.
I wish I could afford these in my speakers! |
I remember reading in Steen's papers that the capacitors that he designed could only be handmade at this time.
Look forward to hearing from Frederik. Is it just volume of handmade or something else? |
I emailed Chris at PC today and he will confirm that the 630 VDC CAST now being made/sold by Duelund is in fact the same. He sure thinks so and is getting confirmation from Duelund.
PC simply made a VERY large purchase instead of Duelund running a couple at a time etc...
They have sold out of the first batch and are placing a second big order based on the success of the first. Here is what Chris emailed to me.
"We've already sold out of the 0.47uf, and are in back-order on it.....and
should have the 0.22uf's sold out later this week.
Due to the success of this first launch, we are re-ording those values,
and expanding the range to 5 or 6 more values too."
This is very good news indeed! |
It does seem to be a standard business practice. (not saying it is for Duelund)
Make a product establish the name sell to loyal buyers, then need a lower price point to increase sales. (hence Alexander Caps)
I hope Frederik pipes in?
It must be cheaper to make hundreds of caps over one off's or pairs. (I assume) |
Ait, I hope you are wrong as I purchased these only because they were on sale assuming they were the same. If not, then it is false advertising.
I will ask Chris at Parts Connection Monday. He told me they got a great price because he had ordered hundreds. So the only difference should be the fact that this vendor ordered in very large quantity.
The Alex caps are also available in larger sizes while these
CAST ones stop at 2.2 uf also leading me to think they are as they were. |
Again, I'm neither trying to cause any controversy nor injure Duelund's business in any way. I love my CAST caps, and hope to add more to my system as budget permits.
Just curious about the changes in shape and price, that's all. In my book, less expensive CAST is a win-win! |
Ait, I hope you are wrong as I purchased these only because they were on sale assuming they were the same. If not, then it is false advertising.
I will ask Chris at Parts Connection Monday. He told me they got a great price because he had ordered hundreds. So the only difference should be the fact that this vendor ordered in very large quantity.
The Alex caps are also available in larger sizes while these
CAST ones stop at 2.2 uf also leading me to think they are as they were. |
Not trashing Duelund or the caps, just observing. "Handmade" could apply to any part of the process, such as the fitting of the paper tube or the CASTing in epoxy, it doesn't necessarily mean 100% handmade.
I bought them too, so I hope they are still the same as the previous hockey-puck style I have. It's just interesting that after they invested in new equipment to make the Alexanders that the CAST changed to a form factor very similar to the Alexanders. On the PCX website it quotes Duelund as saying ..."Investments in larger production machinery have made it possible to do a high volume series of Duelund Capacitors, at much lower cost than previously possible". Perhaps they are leveraging the same machinery but using different materials for the CAST caps - I think I read at one time that they used "cocoon silk" in the CAST.
Making sure expensive machinery is running as close as possible to 100% utilization makes good business sense.
Maybe Frederik will chime in with an explanation. |
