Grannyring
I found what you said about bypassing in the power supply very interesting. I was shocked when I changed out the vintage electrolytic for a new Jensen. It was more than any other change. (the vintage being that much better)
You say bypassing your electrolytic was huge improvement but not in coupling caps. Is this because the electrolytic is so poor (and maybe slow) to begin with?
Would not one high quality power supply cap be even better?
Would you like to try a paper in oil power supply cap? (just kidding)
It has been in my mind ever since hearing vintage electrolytic vs. Jensen. Jensen sounded dry the heavier vintage sounded more liquid.
I have heard even years ago McIntosh did some bypassing? (accepting the improvement) I understand that even a Leak Pre amp had a paper in oil power supply 60 years ago?
Has anyone tried the new rectifier tubes from Mullard or Gold Lion? |
Thanks Ric. I did all the damping with the Wimas. That is something I have always done. No, I did not let them play for days as I could not stand the etched sound. I always wait for burn in, but after emailing you and knowing I had the wrong value, I just pulled the plug!
Looking forward to round two. Also looking forward to hearing the new Jupiter caps. Duelund needs more competition so their prices come down. Competition is good for us all on these mega dollar caps! |
You cannot tell how a cap sounds after 3 hours. Modded Wima caps need a couple of days before they settle down. The value of the bypass cap will also effect the frequency balance. Generally the smaller values add air and as you make the cap larger it will add some warmth. You must damp the bypass cap and the main cap. You cannot dangle a cap in the air on bare solid core leads (it will act like a pitchfork .....this will sound bright and horrible). You must clamp the bypass cap down (and not with double stick scotch tape...this ruins the sound) and also you must damp any solid core lead on the bypass cap with cotton sleeving (unless the leads are very short).
Perfecting takes patience. |
For yrs. I rolled preamp coupling caps. Multicaps, Sonicap Platinums, Clarity MRs, Mundorf S//G/O, CuTf V-Cap. JFX Premium, Dueland Cast,
mostly .22s, never in bypass mode. I also rolled most of those, including Dueland Alexander's thru a pr. of Mig 6c33c monos. I've two systems, one up, one down, each w/3 10g runs to an isolated subpanel. The 3 down r on Isoclean gold outlets, the 3 up, Watt gate silvers.
One day while wondering what to do w/all the used caps I took a closer look inside a power conditioner. Some tiny little .01s from neutral to ground
were replaced by .22s & so the experiment began that lasted well over a yr.
The outlets in the conditioner, mine had 5 duplexes out, w/ two individual legs in, also effect the sound. I replaced several of the orange hospital grade outlets w/Oyaide R-0s. You'd have to hear the two side by side in a neutrally cabled system, but the R-0s definitely bring 'more' to the table, after a bit of break in.
For the longest time I couldn't figure out how to utilize the CuTf Vs. They
definitely brought something special no other cap did, but alone or matched w/other .22s in the conditioner they were 'relentless', not forgiving & ultimately unmusical. So I kept taking them out. In retrospect they seemed
'tight', almost 'driven', but to much so.
They really do take what seems like forever to break in, to loosen up When I first tried matching them up w/the 3.3uf S/G/O I was pretty shocked at how they seemed to bring out the best of each. That proportion seems about right. The 'disconnect' when matching two different cap types, was mostly absent. I say mostly, because I think the V-Caps still needed additional break in. Evan so, the combo was special. Music had robust drive plus the dimensionality & focus, something akin to what a Amprex Bugle Boy brings to the table in a nice preamp. Depth & width, perhaps not the height.
That's pretty high praise. Those who've heard such & know their Mullards from their Amprex's, know the life & 'sparkle', the extended treble that leaves ones ears 'hungary', that bit of 'special dimensionality' that is difficult to find. Mullard in comparison r your favorite comfy slippers. Easy to wear, friendly, but perhaps a bit mishapen.
I run that conditioner mostly feeding a Yamaha A-S2000. CDS-2000. & Kef LS-50s. A very transparent, neutral, & spacious combination. When I do swap in another amp/pre/spkr or frontend, the basic character remains.
One other note or subject I'd like to address. After playing w/this combo I'd take issue w/those who claim, say the Kef LS-50 is only a 'near field' speaker. Clean power & conditioning make any speaker much more effective in filling a room. These little guys go plenty low @ good volume levels. They have coherency & dynamics & show any & all upstream changes, especially cables, ect... If it is warm it is warm, if it is rounded it is rounded. You will hear exactly what your 59' Valvo rectifier, your 6sn7 metal base, or your favorite silver speaker wire brings to the table, & you may be surprised! Can you handle the truth? I ended up stripping out many of the 'tweaks' accumulated over the years, including larger speakers.
In my room, effective passive conditioning went a long ways to bringing truth & beauty, (CuTf V-Cap & Mundorf Silver/Gold/Oil) 2gether. |
Salectric, I also agree with you that personal preference can in some instances certainly play a role.
Emailed Ric at EVS and I used the wrong value Wima as a bypass in my Lampizator and will try the mod again once I get the right value. I will report back! |
I bypassed the output caps in my Lampizator today with Wima caps. Just like you said Salectric there seemed to be better highs and more air, but after 3 hours....no go. Things were to bright and emphasized in the highs.
My preamp bypass caps in the power supply did not do that however and worked perfectly with no negatives. So, in the right position, value, and gear they can indeed work. As I have said, it depends on the gear and not so much personal preference or ears. Nobody would say my preamp was better sounding before the bypass mod. Most would not like the bypass cap sound on my Lampizator on the output cap. Certainly nobody in my home did.
I am going to wait on those Jupiter caps for my Lampi! Instead of Duelund I am going to try these new ones. I will do so as I hear they will cost less. |
Jupiter copper foil caps coming in 3 weeks. Yes, values from .001 to 1uf at 600V will be ready in 3 weeks. So far, everyone has preferred them to Dueland copper cast and VSF. These will be in a round case. Later this year 100V flat stacked versions for speakers will be ready. |
Grannyring, I haven't experimented with Wimas. Back in the days when I had ARC preamps I listened to Wimas because they were used extensively in the ARC power supplies, but I wouldn't draw any conclusions from that----too many other variables.
On your comment about 2 camps of people----one appreciating bypass caps and the other disliking bypass caps---I agree completely. Some like 'em, some don't. I am in the Don't Like Them camp. Each time I try a bypass, I hear an emphasis in the highs, like a spotlight has been turned on. This accentuates treble speed, focus and apparent detail and there is more "air" in the mids and highs. These qualities seem---at first---like genuine improvements. Unfortunately, to my ears, they quickly become artificial and unmusical. The unbypassed cap also sounds more coherent; it doesn't change character across the tonal spectrum. The unbypassed cap sounds like one voice rather than a smeared chorus of different voices. |
Regismc, very interesting! Have you tried the s/g/o plus CuTF combination as a coupler as opposed to power conditioner? |
In a power conditioner, w/Mun S/G/O 3.3uf, .22 CuTf VCap is about perfect.
Expect long break in. Those JFX r impressive, but never 'loosened up', they remain rather clinical, cold in comparison. The VCaps will go up & down for a long time, but they resolve more detail & flesh out the lower mids in a way nothing else does, including Dueland. S/G/O & CuTf is the best I've heard, remaining musical w/gobs of resolution. The 'center of gravity' lower, has a certain 'grip' on the music. As always, everything in combination.... |
Salectric,
Thanks for the response. Have you tried a Wima small value cap under .33 uf value? My mids cap is a 3.0 uf and I am going to try a small Wima.
Perhaps a value of 1uf is too high as a high pass, bypass cap?
Thoughts? |
To better clarify what I did with bypass caps in the power supply of my preamp here is more info....
I essentially used cascading bypass capacitor bundles. I cascaded three capacitors with smaller and smaller uf values. I also made sure the smaller value caps had higher voltage ratings. For example...
20 uf. 400v
2 uf 600v
.22 uf 1000v
I paralleled these bundles on top of each large can electrolytic.
Great results. |
Grannyring
please check your gmail account, I've popped you an email.
Cheers |
Others have had great luck with bypassing. I bypassed in my preamp last week and the results were outstanding. Bigger improvement in my preamp than going from a standard film output cap to Duelund CAST. I bypassed every single B+ power supply cap and filament supply cap with a bundle of JFX premium film caps. The results were astounding. The improved resolution, air and black background were shocking. Everything that was great remained, no negatives, only more information served up with an even greater sense of ease and natural tone.
Many, many mod gurus have experienced the same thing with bypass caps in electronics and speaker crossovers. One simply does not know the result until they try it themselves. All our words are mere speculation as this topic has way too many variables to conclusively say yes or no to bypassing in general. Simply cannot make such a wide sweeping statement.
That is why I am asking for first hand experience based on actual mods performed.
Do some research on this topic and you'll find both camps. I have read enough glowing reviews about bypassing, from credible sources, that my "open mind" had to try it. The positive results in my preamp tell me it is at least possible to have a great outcome bypassing.
An a/b comparison of my preamp before and after the bypass mod in the power supply reveals nothing but great results after the bypass surgery.
It is simple for me to remove these bypass bundles listen and then put them back in. No contest! Caption obvious difference.
Credible sources bypass caps in speaker crossovers to great effect, but it is dependent on the speaker design, caps to be bypassed and the bypass cap.
Ric Schultz of EVS uses Wima caps that he modifies with better copper leads. He uses these very tiny caps to great effect in his professional mods. I will be using these modified Wima caps on a Mundorf SIO cap in my speakers on the mids. I will report back on the results.
I have learned that this whole bypass question has no general answer. You wont know until you try. Some results will be stellar, some no change, some poor. |
I agree about refraining from using bypassing caps, whether in a crossover or coupling in electronics. Find one cap in the correct value that pleases your ear/mind and enjoy it. As always, allow for adequate break-in time before making your final decision of how things sound. |
The more I learn about bypass capacitors the less enticing they have become.Theory of getting the benefits of a higher quality cap in a smaller value (less money) don't often seem to be the case in reality. Apparently to get the desired sound you have to get a good cap in the appropriate size. The shortcut bypass isn't the same.
Charles, |
Grannyring, I have used Mundorf Supreme (regular version, not the Silver, Silver/Oil or Silver/Gold/Oil) in my speaker crossovers for several years. I find it to be a very nice sounding musical cap but with some fairly obvious tonal colorations. It has a rich warm mid bass and slightly soft highs.
I have tried many different bypass caps in an effort to make the Mundorf more neutral sounding, but to date nothing has sounded better overall than the solo Mundorf. Most bypass caps sacrifice the smooth coherent sound of the Mundorf by itself. For a while I thought I had a winner with a 1uf Sonicap Platinum bypass. The SP has a solid low end and fast, clean, airy highs. (The SP is well broken in since I have used it for years in various projects.). Just this morning, I tried removing the SP for the first time in about two weeks, and sure enough I still prefer the Mundorf on its own. The SP, as good as it is, makes the Mundorf less coherent; it no longer speaks with the same voice.
The only real solution is to replace the Mundorf with a Duelund CAST. That's what I did last year with the high-pass cap. A single Duelund (fully broken in) in that spot sounds much better than any other single cap or cap cocktail that I tried for the high-pass. So I figure it's only a matter of time before I buy another big Duelund for the low-pass. I just wish they weren't so expensive.
By the way, I tried a .47uf Duelund as a bypass on the Mundorf in the woofer xover, and it was even less coherent than the Sonicap Platinum bypass. Also, you might think a more expensive Mundorf like a S/G/O would make a nice match with a regular Supreme, but they didn't work out at all. Too much emphasis on the highs and a loss of coherency. The S/G/O sounds pretty nice by itself but not as a bypass. |
Anyone have a comment based on actual experience of bypassing a nice Mundorf Supreme or similar on the mids or highs in a speaker crossover.
Like to hear about your results. |
I work so hard on mods I have no other free time:-) |
Grannyring stop being lazy and post your system with pictures. |
Good to see that cap break-in is getting better on the Jupiters. If you do decide to go with Duelund, you don't have to go all the way to the Cast. I'm sure the VSF would sound okay for substantially less money. |
Well I may have posted too quickly. The Jupiter HT flat stacked caps are sounding better. No longer thick or slow. Now they are more open and extended. Very warm sounding. I still need a little more resolution and air.... We will see. |
Sherod, you are right. Just don't have the funds for 6.8 and 3.3uf CAST caps. I will try bypassing the Jupiter next with some modded Wima caps.
I also do this stuff to learn. |
Grannyring,
Just be done with it and install some Duelund VSF caps in those crossovers. :o) |
Jupiter HT flat stacked still sound dull, thick and slow. Not happy with them thus far. The standard Mundorf Supremes were better on the mids of my speaker.....but perhaps more burn in is needed. |
any additional feedback around Jantzen superior z caps? thinking about replacing my sonicaps for these or mundorf supreme or jb jfx.. not sure if any of these are a sufficient upgrade for the $.
Junipers are at least 2x the price and may not fit in my cabinets... |
It has been sleepy!! I check it almost every day but have had nothing too much to report. I was hoping someone else might.
The only thing I have to add is that my Duelund distributor must have run into a delay of some sort and decided to give me all Duelund CAST resistors instead of the standard ones, for not too much more than the standard price. Very happy am I!
The down side is that my Duelund order was only just placed a week ago so I have around 7-8 weeks to go. C'est la vies
Very interesting to read about your opinion of the Obligato cap Bill. Such a minor cost and a genuine improvement. Well done. Tas |
This thread is quite sleepy of late. Well, I love the Obbligato cap I put on the tweeter of my Coincident TVIII speaker. All burned in and it sounds far better than the old Solen cap.
I just installed some Jupiter HT flat stacked caps on the midrange drivers. Not sure if other have tried this cap? With only 4 hours the mids are a little dark thus far. We will see where things end up. Very meaty and rich, but a tad too dark and this juncture. |
OK; The sale is only for the ones they have in stock. They do have some 3.3uF at 50% off. I would have amended the last post, but the site didn't give me the option. |
Good sale on Deuland VSFs: (http://www.partsconnexion.com/capacitor_film_duelund_vsf_speaker.html?utm_source=getresponse&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=laura_386104&utm_content=%E2%98%83%E2%9C%A5+pcX%27s+OOPS+Promotion%3A+72%25+Off+Neotech+AC+Plugs%3B+50%25+Off+Duelund+VSF-Al+Caps%3B+Final+2+Audio-Note+Knobs%3B+Demo+Monitor+Audio+Silver+8+Speakers) |
Yes, all parts in all areas are important. Mills MR and standard Duelund resistors are both good choices for use in the RC networks of your speakers. You will be thrilled! |
My crossover uses 4 resistors, all in the high-pass circuit (tweeter crossover). Two of them are an attenuation network immediately following the actual crossover components (one cap and one choke since it's a 2d order crossover). I use a Mills 12w wirewound for the series resistor in the attenuation network and a standard Duelund for the shunt.
The high-pass also uses a RC network for some equalization of the compression driver. This network is in series with the driver. I use a Mills in this spot. Lastly there is a Zobel network consisting of a small choke and resistor that is in parallel with the driver. I use a Duelund for the Zobel.
I would not conclude from my experience that series resistors are always more critical than shunt resistors. Both resistors in my attenuation network are very critical. The series resistor might be the most critical, I'm not sure, but they are both very important. The other two resistors in my crossover, one series and one shunt, are less critical sonically. |
Salectric
Very interesting information about the Duelund standard resistors. I've just re-spoken with my Duelund rep and he tells me the resistors in my crossovers are shunt and are therefore less critical to the sound. Would your resistors have been in a similar situation or were they in series and, therefore, making more of an impact? The reason I ask is I'm trying to get some gauge as to what impact my choice of resistor in my particular situation will be.
In a normal situation, I really think I'd like to just get the CAST and put my mind at ease but, in my predicament, the money I save on resistors goes on better internal wiring.
I love what a fellow in England has done with an external crossover he built for his Westminster Royal SE's. CAST everything and some silver CAST capacitors just to top it all off. No agonising over cost for him. Apparently, he's very happy with the result! lol ;b
http://jeffsplace.me/wordpress/?p=3701 |
I have tried standard Duelund resistors in my speaker crossovers, but not CAST. I don't believe there was a higher grade of Duelund resistors available when I bought mine but I could be wrong.
In any case, the standard Duelund resistor is a mixed bag. In some ways, it sounds better than a Mills 12w wirewound resistor, but in other ways the Mills sounds better. The Duelund is warmer and more detailed, but the Mills has deeper bass and has more high frequency air and extension. Initially I replaced all 4 Mills resistors in each speaker with Duelunds and was very pleased with the improved detail. But I quickly missed the speed and excitement as well as extended highs of the Mills. That led me to put back first one Mills and then a second, which is what I have used ever since. The combination of 2 Duelunds and 2 Mills seems to give me the best of both worlds. This is something that will probably vary from speaker to speaker. But the moral here is that the standard Duelund may not always be an improvement, at least not compared to a Mills which happens to be a very good sounding resistor and much less expensive. Of course, the CAST resistor may sound much better than the standard version. Eventually I plan to try some and find out. |
Tas, I think the standard Duelund resistors will be perfect for the RC network position they are in. While parts quality make a difference in this position, not as much as the cap in the direct signal path of you tweeter.
The choices you made for resistors and caps in the RC networks are very reasonable with reasonable cost. They are far better than what they replace and that to my thinking is the right decision for this application.
Love to hear others jump in and give opinions. |
Charles and Bill
Thanks for your replies. Very interesting information Bill, thanks.
Now, regarding the CAST resistors, no, I ordered the standard type, but I have a feeling you're going to tell me there's a difference in placing standard to CAST? Please - I'm all ears? I just asked the Duelund distributor here to supply Duelund resistors not thinking there was a standard and CAST.... |
Tas, I looked at your diagram and the smaller 2.7 and 2.2uf caps are not bypass caps, but part of the resistor/capacitor Zobel networks on your tweeter and midrange drivers.
In these RC or Zobel networks a resistor and capacitor are linked in series and placed in parallel to the driver or speaker.
These networks do in fact change the sound of the driver otherwise they would not be there. They are used to smooth out rising impedance on a woofer and often used to cure or smooth out frequency peaks in tweeters.
Many feel the quality of the part does indeed play a sonic role in these RC networks. The fact that our speakers have a decent film cap and not electrolytic in these positions points to this fact.
Merlin Music uses an RC rework on their speakers and also uses good parts quality for a reason.
Remove that RC filter from your speaker and your speaker will not sound the same. The network is impacting the sound and the parts do matter. They almost always matter.
Builders and designers are typically not built like us obsessive parts testers and swappers .... Many have not done all the cap and resistor rolling we do and simply don't know first hand the result. Others just leave that to others and push the circuit design to the limit. Lastly, others have a budget and at some point not every part can be more expensive.
You have made some nice part choices Tas. Did you order CAST resistors from Duelund! |
Tas,
You chose a speaker that should satisfy you for the long term.
I think all Coincident speakers utilize a zobel network to ensure a pretty flat impedance across the board. |
Just an addendum to my original capacitor parts list, the capacitors I'm installing in my Total Eclipses are going to be Jantzen Audio Superior Z-Caps in all positions except the tweeter cap (which is Duelund VSF black). Charles, one of these days I'd love to look inside a Total Eclipse II and try and figure out how your crossover could be so different. I'm completely jealous about the positioning & type of your crossover components. Prodigiously more upgrade friendly than mine.
I've now passed a circuit diagram of my tweeter/mid crossover on to Bill(Grannyring) and think we may get some clarification about whether I have a Zobel network.
As usual, huge thanks everyone. I truly feel as though I'm not doing this alone. For the record, I have a family & these speakers were hard earned and are treasured and I wouldn't risk doing what I'm doing without some serious support and that's down to the incredible generosity of spirit of people in this forum.
Cheers, Tas |
That's good news Bill. The stock speaker is exceptional to begin with and makes a wonderful foundation. High quality modification/parts elevate it to the level of "superb" sound and tremendous performance /cost ratio. Lampizator-Dude-Coincident, how can you lose?
Charles, |
Ok here is an update on the cap and resistor upgrade I did on my speakers. First I want to say to those who feel caps and resistors don't need to burn in and that any changes we hear are our ears getting used to the different sound. Your wrong! Ha! Just plain old mistaken.
I listened to my speakers for two days right after the mod and was kind of concerned as the highs and mids were thin and not very musical. I just could not stand it. I grabbed my Bel Canto integrated and an Oppo 83 CD player from a second system and just played my speakers 24/7 with a special burn-in CD and all kinds of music. I did not have a chance to get used to the sound as I did not listen and just left my music room located in my basement the moment I loaded a new CD on repeat mode.
After 4 days or some 80 hours I listened to my main rig again and just smiled! The highs are now far more open and filled the room. No trace of thinness or etched sound anymore. A completely different speaker compared to what I heard 4 days earlier. Rich and smooth is all I hear now! The speakers sound more open and relaxed then before the upgrade. Yes the upgrade was worth my time and money.
In the future I will upgrade to Duelund resistors in the Zobel Networks and Duelund caps on the tweeter and midrange drivers.
I will plug the use of Obbligato premium gold caps on tweeters and midrange drivers in a crossover. They are only $23- $35 per cap depending on the value and far better than Solen Fast Caps in these crossover positions.
I may use Jupiter Flat Stacked or Clarity MR in the Zobel networks as I believe they do make a difference. I can say for sure the Mills MR12 resistor connected to the tweeter cap provided I nice improvement over the sand cast resistor used in that position. |
I did take advice from this thread and used some extra Duelund silk from some old Duelund Copper wire I had left and put it on the leads of the CAST cap.
I also tied down a CAST cap that was "dangling". (pretty bad really)(started to feel guilty)
Oh boy am I going over the edge? (LOL)(really though it does make sense we spend so much money for CAST'ing process then let the leads float. |
Wired up my other CAST cap for the phono stage.
Did not sound very good going in for the first 30 minutes.
New CAST caps are overpowering in the beginning at least in electronics. They sound stiff and aggressive. If I had not been through this before I would be worried but I am not. They tilt the sound big time to where they are (new) but the good news is they settle down in time. (and produce less volume)
This phenomenon which is strange is CAST (brand new) vs. CAST (well worn in) in this test.
Not sure what causes this? Did not notice this when the VSF's went in? I suspect something to do with the CAST'ing process. |
I definitely have a zobel network but it's located on the floor of the speaker cabinet along with the coil inductor. There's no capacitor on any driver other than the tweeter (5.6uf) and no resistor (except what's in the zobel network. Believe me we looked and also confirmed with Israel. This may be his simplest crossover. I didn't bother with the zobel components as I was told they aren't in the signal pathway and changes would be minuscule sonic impact. Changing the tweeter capacitor was quite significant and I'm very pleased.
Charles, |
Charles, are you absolutely sure your speakers don't have Zobel network parts....Have you looked all around? They may indeed....? |
In addition bypass caps are usually a much smaller value such as .01 - .68 uf values.....the 5uf or so tweeter cap would not be bypassed with 2 or 2.2uf value! |
Tas
I have not used the VSF Black but have quite extensive use of VSF caps in electronics, inductors, caps in crossovers, CAST in electronics, CAST in crossovers and all Deulund is great. I am sure you will love the black. Sometimes I use like you VSF in electronics due to space.
I have heard the Black is in the middle from VSF to CAST and I think originally made to be in th middle for cost and sound reasons from VSF to CAST.
I have found you can intermix new copper foil in oil of different brands and even vintage. Now metalized poly caps... (no in my mind)
The difference in foil caps is the quality of the metal aluminum, copper, silver and the the resonance and it's control. You have low resonance caps Jensen Paper foil in oil VSF and lowest of all CAST and you have high resonance caps new ones like Ampohm and vintage fall into this category.
Resonance in some spots is worse than others. Tweeter caps need low resonance. Phono stage and pre-amp need low resonance.
Mid range? Resonance does add fullness to the freq that resonance occurs. I did not find a huge difference in VSF to vintage in the midrange. (like to do that test again sometime)
Woofer oddly enough you want a low resonance part there. Wish I had CAST but VSF was much better than vintage. |
Biil,
I think he's referring to the zobel network caps as well. I don't believe Israel would use bypass caps in the crossover ( I could be wrong). Sure is a big difference between the crossovers in the Total Eclipse I vs the series II. Or could because that Tasos's is the bi wired version?
Charles, |
Tas, not sure what you mean about posting it on your Agon page. You don't have such a page and would need a virtual system set up.....I think I have this right?
You can contact me through the Agon system and we can share ideas and progress. |
I also suggest solid core copper wire from Neotech. They make Teflon coated 6/9's pure copper that is very good and affordable.
Use 20 gauge on the tweeter and 14 gauge on the bass drivers. The mids can use 16-18 gauge. |
