Grannyring,
Did you receive my PM? |
My Duelund CAST resistors just arrived today so I will be able to compare the CAST to the regular Duelund resistors I have been using the last year or two. I will post some details after I am sure the new resistors are fully broken in.
I also have another pair of CAST capacitors on order so I will have CAST caps on the woofer as well as the tweeter. |
Hi again everyone
I'm at around the 100 hour mark and I have to say, I thoroughly agree with Grannyring - DON'T listen to your speakers while the burn in process is below 100 hours!! There were times that I thought they sounded so wrong that I began to wonder about my decision to upgrade. Only momentarily mind you. I know enough from you folks to understand changes that were happening.
At the moment I believe I have an amazing sound but I believe the high frequencies can still be aggressive or too loud at times - depending on source material. I have a hunch I'm a few hours yet from full burn in. Interested to hear you say that you found that as well Charles.
Something I can say without doubt now is just how much more information these speakers are allowing through than before the upgrade. For instance, I don't believe I've ever been made to pay attention to the warmth/readiness my digital source before now. I used to just turn it on (from standby) and listen. Not now - I simply cannot listen to it for at least 30 minutes. It just sounds so wrong before that stage. I can really hear any limitations of my digital source. I will definitely be investigating some upgrades for my player as well. I keep wondering what effect a CAST cap or two will have with that....actually, why not Jupiter!!
It may be a good time to ask this question, I have a Meridian 800 version 4 as my digital source. I've upgraded the power supply to linear with excellent results. Could anyone here recommend an approach to determining which capacitors I might look at changing over in this unit to improve its analogue output? There is a group in my city called Soundlabs who do this kind of thing but I'd rather do it myself if possible.
Tas |
The speakers I was talking about that were made from 1992 for three years are one of the best speakers I have EVER heard at any price are make of speakers, no, they are no where the best, if there is a such a thing, they are 30hz to 27khz and cross over at 900 hz everything stock, They are the vintage 4-way bi-amp JBL L-7 speakers, I have looked inside them before, they have these huge caps and it looks like a big wound transfomer?, These speakers are three foot from the wall behind the speakers, and 3 foot from the side walls of each side of the speakers, nearly 7ft apart, and 5 degrees toe in, this took me three months of heart ache to position, inside fireing 12 inch woofers speakers are odd to set up in a room, However, I can tell you, I am quite happy with the out come, the deepest, tallest, widest sound stage, with uncanny bass slam, natural, non fatiging speakers, with precise tonal balance I have owned or listened to in many years, I have nearly listened to all the big names in speakers, $80,000.00 speakers-wilson grand slams to Avalons etc..., The biggest tweeks I have done so far to these speakers is the addition of the Tara labs Omega jumper cables for the four post on each speaker, and still points footers for getting the cabinet to be more inert, I do not ever want a speaker cabinet to be over built, LOL!, the speakers cannot breath the music thru out properly to me, I have listened, to speakers that was all about the cabinets strengths, sounded like crap to me!, this may amuse you fellows here, However, I am very happy with these speakers, and in the end, that's what counts, I want to learn from all of you, I cannot imagine these speakers getting any better, I believe all of you,I know you guys know what you are talking about, and when it comes to the caps for speakers and everything else all of you are talking about on this thread, well then, I am just a newbie to this subject, I have no exsperience in, and have never done these up-grades in my life, so I am all ears here!, cheers. |
Charles
In doing the testing one part change at a time was done to avoid trying to do sound tests by memory which I thought could lead to the brain saying it is better because I spent $$$ on it.
Cost was another factor when I first bought Duelund parts one part seemed like enough money. If it did nothing and before this blog there was no body of people saying the same thing and to be honest my first CAST purchase i thought i might be nuts! All that money on a capacitor!! After a while I started buying in pairs installing one at a time. (when I knew kind of what to expect)
In amplifier tests cap tests I have done three vintage amps all same brand keeping the best sounding one all stock as a reference to go back too. Again to see is this real progress? It is the one I am currently using (now with cap problem) and it is still very good! It might be even better (with the vintage Vishay ERO caps) at realism in voices than the Duelund caps? If it is an acoustic recording maybe better? Vintage lacks dynamics though.
It has been said on here before the CAST are awesome but might lack a bit of air?
Tas might have the best caps? Has anyone compared the VSF Black to CAST? I have not only CAST to VSF.
What has shocked me as well is just like Tas's initial impression of his mods were very good how many times initial impressions stick... |
Thanks Grannyring. I think I will stay put. It is tempting to change stuff because it is so easy. But I hate breakin on things. And I don't want to go in the wrong direction. I appreciate the input a lot. Thanks again |
I'd never heard of Duelund until Grannyring began a thread about them roughly 2 years ago and this stirred my curiosity. Very soon afterwards I came across this thread and Volleyguy's postings simply hooked me in. Yes his single speaker comparison method was unusual but I completely understood his impressions and descriptive points. I loved my speaker's sound and had no real interest in buying something different(though always curious about PHY driver speakers and Horning). I thought, try the CAST and if I don't like it, remove them and stick with the stock Solen capacitor. The Solens cap will never see the interior of these speakers again. It wasn't a case of going from bad to good, it was instead, quite good to sublime. To his credit, Israel Blume got really good sound from an average capacitor.
Charles, |
Tas
This is fantastic and please keep us updated on the VSF Blacks. There has been much CAST talk but in my tweeter it is CAST followed by VSF on purpose. I have always wanted try the Blacks they say in the middle. I think they were made for Merlin? I would not hesitate to buy them for a second! |
Hi Marqmike,
My wife's system has the Mozart original speakers, not the newer Grands. But we love them! She won't let me touch her system with a soldering iron! She said leave it alone and I have obeyed.
One thing I did do based on a past Stereophile review was reverse the polarity on the tweeter which was mis-wired. I say mis-wired as both Stereophile and I noted the vast improvement with the wires reversed. The speaker opened up a ton and sounds fantastic with this done. My wife even agreed :-)
I am not sure the Grand has the same issue....I doubt it. |
I am very glad this very long thread has worked out so well for so many of us...
The actual cause of the start of this thread was when I installed a full new crossover into my speakers on one side with Sonicaps vs. the vintage foil caps. Like most people I think I wanted to believe that my work (time) and money was making things better. The new caps with all this progress (of 30 years) were much smaller. I had my wife come down almost grudgingly to listen. I wanted a blind test listener. She listened blind to the 30 year old crossover and the brand new one. She went WOW that one is clearly way better! She said that one just sounds sooooo much better and real you must be really happy?
The problem was and I did not tell her (she was really impressed) she was picking the vintage foil in oil caps!!! That caused the start of this thread as I went this is not just bolt in new parts sound better. The thread started as just a sharing of thoughts.
I was under the impression all new caps better than all old ones? So I said I have to go up the quality scale and get some Mundorf Supreme's (which were better) and Duelund was the same style as the vintage but much better!
Oddly enough for someone reading this thread VSF was not chosen as a snooty exotic cap it was the only one that was better in all ways to the vintage caps. In fact the VSF might fit the bill of being 10-30% better in the midrange (not super huge) the tweeter caps were a 100% better!
I was impressed and shocked (by all of this) and started to read all of Steen Duelund's writing that I could and that I could understand.
Then I tried the CAST tweeter caps putting one speaker against another a VSF vs. CAST comparison. I was ready to really put my ears on to see if I could hear a difference. I literally thought I wired something up wrong going to the CAST tweeter speaker putting my ear to it to see if it was still working! To my shock there was just sooooo much less noise. People had told me (including Frederick) that of course the difference was not going to be like vintage to VSF but it was at least as big to my shock!
Now let us all be speaker manufactures for awhile. The common number I hear is $12k in the speakers allows for $2k in manufacturing costs? We are a very small market caring about sound quality rather than appearance. Steen talked about this in some of his papers on why there had been so little progress on sound quality yet stunning finishes on new speakers but this is for the eyes not the ears.
Thanks for all the nice comments about this thread but we really all owe a lot to Steen (now Frederik) for making these improvements and it goes to show the money must be in sexy speakers...
Now for the second blind test.
I took the amp in knowing not guessing something was wrong with the sound but not knowing what is was? In seeing the leaking CAST I went wow it had not been leaking that long either.
The amp builder (who is an absolute great guy!) said "that is why I do not like these exotic caps". He meant it like it was all a farce, waste of money or maybe that he has not had failures in his machine made caps? I have talked about having him over to hear the speakers but am worried...
I already know it sounds better than any amp I have heard in his store for repair and he has had some good ones!
His comment guys are exactly why we do not have high end parts in many speakers or amps. He has a vested financial interest in NOT thinking expensive caps sound better... (or heaven forbid if they were not as reliable)
To me I can deal with wiring in another cap I have only had one go bad but I can not handle crappy sound from a cap that lasts forever... |
Hey Grannyring
I have some vienna accoustic mozart grands which I believe you have also. One thing I think they are noted for is a little richer presentation. Could you tell me with your experience replacing xover caps and resistors in other speakers, and your familiarity with the mozarts, do you think this is easily an upgrade replacing the caps and resistors or a little risky because of the house sound of the mozarts? Thanks a lot for your input. |
Absolutely Charles and Grannyring a speaker should sound great with the parts the manufacture supplies. I doubt very much that you would find any component that you thought was just ok transform into something fabulous with just better part changes. |
Charles is right. We are saying the designs are very good. In many cases the drivers and cab are also high quality. But often times they use low cost resistors, caps, and inductors thinking they don't make much of a difference or whatever the reason. I say don't skimp on crossover parts when selling a $12,000 plus speaker! Go ahead and use a $10 resistor instead of a $ .50 cent one. Go ahead and use a $200 cap instead of a $5 one..... |
Audiolabyrinth,
I wouldn't extrapolate to the extent that you have done.The main point is with many speakers the Xover is a soft spot and is ripe for considerable improvement. The speaker should be very good and appeal to your ears in its stock form.I wouldn't suggest that you can take any old speaker and transform the sound merely by upgrading the capacitors. Other important aspects of the speaker must be of quality also.
Charles, |
Jwm - Big Amen to that. Both the power supply statement and get out your solder guns! |
Thankyou volleyguy1 for your input, a very good explanation, and reading all that has been said recently was a great learning exsperience for me, citing that alot of well regarded exspensive speakers have poor implimented cross-overs was a revelation!, I do want all of you here to know, I am formost a believer most High-end speakers are way over priced period, I have wittnessed many times over a $2,000.00 to $5,000.00 speaker completly out perform $20,000.00 to much more exspensive speakers, there always seemed to be something missing in the sound to the more exspensive speakers, A higher cost to me does not always mean better when it comes to speakers, really, there are alot more speaker makers than anything made in audio, so there are more choices world-wide, thus, I believe why I was able to hear cheaper speakers out-perform the exspensive ones, so gentlemen, what all of you are stateing here is spot on with me, and what I enjoy, you are saying, you can take a very,very, good $2,000.00 speaker from 1992 and kick the crap out of most out there with all the cap up-grades for speakers mentioned in the last few post?, I was very supprised with the modest percentage ratio!, there is componets that do not do that,LOL!, what a learning exsperience here, cheers to all of you gentleman, By all means, carry on. |
It seems the crucial part of audio is the xover and power supplies in all other components. Ok everyone get your soldering irons out. |
Hi Bill (Grannyring),
As usual you raise many good points with your insight.Based on my experience I really can't understand why builders of expensive speakers don't use bette Xover parts.I sincerely respect their talents and efforts but many(not all) seem to cheap out on the Xover portion of the speaker.Or they design a complex multiple part Xover with poorer quality caps, wire and resistors. It seems to me that fewer parts (simple design) but placing emphasis on the quality would be a better option.
To Coincident's credit their Xovers are very simple and direct. The standard speaker is very good sounding. Yank out the Solens capacitor and insert Duelund and it's a "Wow what happened" experience.This would probably be true for the vast majority of speakers. Speakers with complex-multi capacitors can become expensive to change if you decide to go the Duelund route . fortunately there are other less costly alternatives that would still be a worthwhile upgrade from the stock parts.
I never would have thought that the Xover could be so crucial to the overall sound. Another example of "everything matters".
Charles, |
Hi Tas,
Well your conclusions about the Coincident speakers match mine. Very good cabinet construction, excellent quality drivers and pretty simple signal path. Address the crossover with premium parts and you'll have an exceptionally sounding speaker (natural rather than artificial Hifi). I'm very happy that you achieved such a pleasing outcome.
For the initial money spent on the superior parts the end result is actually quite a remarkable value. You can use any top quality source or preamp/ amplifier and your speakers won't be outclassed, they'll easily keep up!
I agree with, this long thread (thanks Volleyguy) has been informative, friendly and fun.
Charles, |
Tas, you are right! It seems almost all speaker builders cheap out on the crossover parts. Even speakers that retail for $20,000 or more! Folks spend lots of money ugrading gear, tubes, wire when upgrading crossover parts often times does more good than all the rest.
In terms of 30%, goodness that is an impossible number to come at in realality as we all perceive and judge this sort of thing with our own subjective scale... Bottom line is this, does your system sound more like music in an apprecable manner. If so...success! |
Volleyguy1
I simply could not fit a Duelund CAST cap into my mid/treble enclosure (at least based on the measurements I was given) so I opted for VSF Black cap and CAST resistors. All the remaining caps are Jantzen Audio Superior Z Caps. I thoroughly agree with you Volleyguy1, 30% (as a number) just doesn't tell the whole story with what I'm listening to right now. At 24 hours burn in I'm listening to soundscapes that are bordering on the awesome and sublime. Complex images and tones. My speakers are not at all what they once were.
Charles1dad - Thank you! I've read everything you have said in this blog. I understood what you wrote and believed your experiences but I still wasn't prepared for what I've heard so far. I thought that what would happen would be that my sound would be more articulate and real - this is more - it is far more detailed as well. I would've been satisfied with what I have as a final result but, at 24 hours?!?! I'm open mouthed.
I need to stress though, my upgrade included new Neotech internal wiring (which you already had Charles) and new Eichman-ETI speaker terminals to replace the large/fat brass terminals I had before. I think that these must have contributed to my gains here.
The truth is folks, I would never have imagined that this kind of money would produce this amount of gain. Older Coincident speakers like mine were made with great cabinets and good drivers, they just needed to be brought up to 2014 standards in their crossovers. In case anyone wants any advice, go buy a second hand pair of Coincidents - Total Eclipse or better - and upgrade them the way that's been suggested in this forum. A bargain in audio, no doubt about it. I have heard $30,000 speakers and, until my upgrade is fully run in, I'll reserve judgement, but, I repeat, I never expected this kind of jump in performance.
If we'd all lived in the same town, I'd be throwing a party for all of you to say thanks! In the meantime, thank you everyone.
Tas |
Hi Tas,
Congratulations on the successful modification of your speakers. The Duelund upgrade takes the Total Eclipse from the "very good" to the level of superb in my opinion. Just settle back and enjoy your music, it will steadily improve. In hindsight I realized the sound improvement continued for several hundred hours.The CAST were just a terrific decision for me and utterly worth every red cent I payed for them . Surely they are one of High End audio's esteemed products for those of us who highly value natural sound.
Charles, |
The amp will be sitting for a week (holidays) the cap is going back.
I might take a ribbing here but I knew something was wrong within just a few hours. Took the amp for a check up to the amp builder and when plate came off oil leaking out of the CAST cap... (to my surprise I was thinking tubes)
The cap had not leaked much at that point. Bought some new tubes to see if that was it sound problems. Hooked back up sounded better but within a hour or two started to get worse again and there was a little oil under the amp. (leaking faster)
I have say I shocked myself how quickly I could hear something going wrong.
Too much listening to caps! When the Jensen Electrolytic went in power supply before I could hear it right away.
What does a cap sound like going bad? As the oil goes out the sound gets drier, edgy.
To people who do not think you can hear caps that's crazy. I could hear how much oil was leaking out! |
|
Audiolabyrinth
In my opinion 30% that Grannyring has stated could be shy of what you get. Of couse % are very hard to calculate and I doubt he wants to overstate.
My feeling is it varies from part to part and you can get good info in here where to start.
Tweeter caps for me enormous. Maybe 30% just for them...
Woofer inductor was shocking as well but is more costly but maybe as large.
If given a choice I would for sure go crossover first. This was Steen Duelund's thoughts as well. His thought was 50% of your system in speakers 50% of the speaker $ in the crossover. |
Hi all
Everything has been installed in my Coincident Total Eclipses and I'm at around the 12 hour point of run in.
Initial impressions are of much more detail and bigger soundstage. Treble is more pronounced than it should be and sometimes too aggressive. Much stronger placement of instruments in 3D space. Players and instruments have moved from where I've heard in the past.
Listening to Joni Mitchell is a dream at the moment. I know I shouldn't be paying attention to what I'm listening to until the 100 hour mark but I'm just so keen to get into these.
Given that I've upgraded from solen caps and sand resistors to Duelund & Jantzen Audio - I have to say there is already an immediate benefit. My speakers/system sounds "more expensive". Can hardly believe where this is heading to. Really optimistic.
100 hours plus, here I come!!
Thanks all, Tas |
|
Too funny Saletric!
Just one amp and just one cap different. |
Volleyguy1, one of these days maybe you will be able to listen in stereo with both channels matched. I highly recommend it! |
New tubes today for the vintage loaded with Duelund amp.
Worn out tubes and Duelund caps do not sound better than good tubes and vintage caps not by a long shot.
In this testing I kept what was the best sounding amp stock as a reference point. I have modded the lesser sounding amps and now want to hear what a rectifier tube does |
Tas
I will find out the cap is going back. I happen to have an extra here so no big deal except the break in time.
With the dead quiet vintage amp... In the past speakers were often horns. The enemy of horns is noise. I used to go as a kid to a theater that had the big curved screen and would show 70mm movies. I used to go and everyone was in awe of the screen I was in awe of the sound! It was big horn maybe Western Electric or Altec? They used to power the whole theater with a few watts. Mostly Western Electric 300b's is my guess. It was dead quiet.
The amp builder has the big Altec's and that is not what I remember from the theater I think it was Western Electric. |
@ Grannyring, Wow!, That is a huge improvement, worth looking into, @ Tasouli, Hi, I agree with you about reading this thread, However, I knew Grannyring is a seasoned audiophile, and has been doing cap up-grades for a while now, and reading many of his post for a couple of years, I trust his Ears, His opinions, I also like his tast in pre-amps as well to, The Dude pre-amp, Grannyring's description of sound, engaging and real, less hi-fi is spot on with what I do, cheers. |
AudioL,
It it so difficult to talk in percentages of improvement as numbers don't really seem to get at the actual experience.
If forced, I would say 30%, but more importantly the music is demonstrably more engaging and real. Less Hifi....more real. |
Audiolabyrinth
One of the most important things I did to get into this was to read. Many of the questions you have, have already been asked and answered in this blog. People's experiences here have been extensive and they have written about them extensively in the many pages before this one. I suggest you start going through some of them. You may start answering some questions you didn't even know you had!
Highly recommended.
Tas |
Thankyou Grannyring, very imformative, I do not know anything about after market caps, how much more performance have you got replacing caps in your speakers, 10%, 20%, etc.. |
AudioL,
Great question. Well you have choices, best choices, at various price points.
The best choice for reasonable money are the Jupiter HT flat stacked. They are very musical and the opposite of cold and sterile. They offer a wonderful balance of resolution and meat on the bones musicality.
I have not had good luck with any of the Mundorf caps in this position. They tend to sound a tad thin and a tad emphasized in the upper mids and treble. At first they are impressive, but over time they wear on my ears.
If you want to spend even less, then the Obbligato Premium Gold caps are very good for the money.
If you want the best of the best and price is not a concern, then you have two choices. The Duelund CAST caps and the coming Jupiter copper foil. The Jupiter caps are far less money and are in production as I type. They should be available soon. Based on the performance of the electronic sizes now available, I think I would go with the new Jupiter copper foil. They are as good and far less money. At least this has been true of the values up to 1uf thus far. |
@ Grannyring, very impressive!, what caps work to best effect for speakers that will not sound analitical, sterile,cold, or a forward presatation? |
Tas,
Well said and I understand your passion. Once people realize to focus on the "natural" reproduction of music in place of hifi dogma and criteria they're much better off (and happier). I want to enjoy music rather than analyze and obsess over the sound.
Charles |
I know Tas it took me 35 years to finally get where I enjoy the music and don't worry about the equipment. |
Charles
Here here! For all of my life I've loved music. For most of my life I've loved the idea of enjoying music at home. After years and years of expensive HiFi frustration and, finally coming to the conclusion that one needed to be a multi millionaire to experiment and even then not be completely satisfied with my sound - I finally land on my feet in this forum. The internet and blogs like this one are a gold mine of information. Knowing what has been and is being tried and proven on equipment very similar to my own is remarkable information. I feel as though I'm FINALLY in control of this vague process of being satisfied with what I use to listen to my music. We - all of us here, have no vested interest other than freely offering information in the hope that we all take steps ahead and find peace, satisfaction and joy in this pursuit of beautiful music.
Removing the "kinks" or weaknesses in our systems can produce extraordinary results.
I'm a believer and a convert......free at last! (Somewhat passionate sounding..lol. Not meant to sound zealous - it's just such a relief to finally get to this point!!)
Tas |
AudioL,
Yes I do sir. In my current pieces I have modifications in my preamp, speakers and amplifiers. |
Right on Charles this should be the audio bible nothing else to say. |
Tas,
We share the same philosophy regarding audio components. Buy the components that really move you and connect emotionally with your music, then try to extract the most potential they have to offer. This approach has worked beautifully for me .
Charles, |
Volleyguy1
Duelund CAST that was leaking oil? Interesting to hear. I have wondered if these amazing parts ever go "off" and, if they ever did, what support we'd get from Duelund. Do you have any idea if you stand a good chance of a free repair/replacement from Duelund if required?
Re the dead quiet vintage amp....I'm completely convinced that 80 or so years ago there were production techniques for caps, and maybe even power supplies, that we may have left behind. If someone knew how to make an amp dead quiet then I'm hoping that that will be the case again and again. Viva la research and well done Jupiter for forging ahead with better cap building techniques!
For my own part I just love the idea that I've gotten off the "new unit merry go round". I'd rather sort out something I own and make it work properly than buy yet another seller's promise of the perfect source component, line stage, amplifier....whatever.
Tas |
Had my one amp in today to the co-incidentally local guy who is an amp builder and repair. Something is not quite right.
He always has some very good gear in for repair and of course lots of guitar amps.
In testing he took out the tubes and the Gold Lion 12AX7's test very strong. I have found the Gold Lions to be very dynamic and the Psvane did not test as strong although well within normal.
The EL 84 7189/6BQ5 Russian Preffered series ('80's military spec I am told) are a little weak after 1 to 2,000 hours in 13 months. New tubes Gold Lions coming. I guess normal for this type of tube.
One thing that did really surprise me one Duelund CAST cap was leaking oil and was wet. Not sure if this is what has sent sound off? It has not been tested yet as the volume control pot needs replacing on the amp and I will have him check it out then.
Now back listening to original amp that started this thread years ago. Just a dead quiet vintage amp that blew me away. |
JFX caps are a steal for the money in electronics as they cost $4 each! I would rather use JFX as compared to any Mundorf caps, Solen etc.....
In terms of how they compare to Jupiter in electronics, well not in the same league at all. |
Grannyring, how would you describe the Jupiters compared to the JB JFX? I know you felt the JFX was a decent alternative to the CAST caps a few months ago. Since my reactions to the JFX were not as positive, I am trying to get some context for your comments on the Jupiter. |
Grannyring
These are the Copper foil that are for sale at partsconnexion?
I might try some of these. I could use some small value caps. |
Hi Grannyring,question, Do you install, and solder your own cap up-grades that are under discussion here? |
I also find the micro-details are amazing and they are served up with naturalness that defies most electronic gear. |
