Dear All,
I got a mail, saying that Lampi's findings were being discussed here.
Long story short - We make a lot of different type of caps. For the sake of competition we divulge some details but not all.
The ones Lampi took apart were CAST630v, which uses a special mixed dielectricum, we are quite proud of.
In essence, the copper foils are separated by two layers of paper, which is vacuum impregnated with our WPIO liquid/oil. Just like a regular paper in oil.
The material inbetween is not Mylar, as speculated, but something Steen discovered would work great in this application. Which is why we use it.
The cap is not in an oil bath - as we found the fully casted foil sounded better, the paper however is permeated with oil.
Incidentally, the CAST100v is completely different, The CAST Mylar we did for the Tannoy project is different again, and it does contain mylar.
On order we also make a myriad of different setups, be it PIO, WP, Teflon, Tin, Polystyrene, metalized. etc. etc.
Best regards,
Frederik
Duelund Coherent Audio |
As Roxy54 noted, it seems that both paper-in-oil and mylar are available:
http://jeffsplace.me/wordpress/?p=3794 |
When did this new construction process begin? Mine were purchased a couple of years ago. I'm curious to know if the" new" version sounds different( could certainly still be fantastic). Frederick shed some light if you don't mind.
Charles, |
Yes, the current CAST is not paper in oil. Agreed this is misleading for sure. |
Roxy54,
Yes,I agree with you.It just doesn't make any sense for Duelund to be misleading about their fabulous capacitors and that's why I was hesitant to cast doubt on them.Duelund should clarify to avoid confusion concerning the various capacitors.
Charles, |
Reynolds853,
Thanks for that link. I think there may have been an answer to everyone's questions buried within the article. After an explanation of the long process of consructing the Cast capacitor with paper and copper foil and oil (very interesting process), there is a picture of what appears to be Cast capacitors that look the same as the oil and paper Cast capacitors, and the writer explains that they are a new product, Cast mylar capacitors.
This might explain Grannyring's experience with opening up one that appeared to be all plastic. |
The manufacturing process is described this site and appears to relate conversations with Frederik.
The Duelund Coherent Audio CAST Capacitor: The World's Finest ...
jeffsplace.me/wordpress/?p=370 |
Charles agreed. I am interested in why the claims don't seem to match materials however? |
Bill,
I agree mylar isn't an organic material but a synthetic. I was referring to the organic sound quality of the Duelund CAST. It'd be nice if Frederick of Duelund would comment. What ever their method of construction they sound devine.
Charles, |
I went to,the Duelund website and here is what they says about the CAST caps:
The Duelund CAST Capacitor is our no holds barred flagship capacitor.
The construction builds on the foundation of our Virtual Stack Foil design but does so with the addition of a proprietary WPIO dielectricum which necessitates several days of impregnation under high pressure.
Interesting as I see no mention of the plastic substance that was everywhere and most prominent? I saw no paper except the outer wrap?
This was a .22 uf CAST cap. Do they make different grades and types of CAST based on value and retailer? I doubt it.....This is quite confusing for sure. |
Charles, I have seen the cap cut in half and well as the builder of Lampizator and Lukasz recent comments mirror what I have posted here. |
Jwm, based on what is in the Duelund cap I would say they are more like the Audio Note Mylar, copper foil caps in materials only. Duelund uses a special process to build that others don't however. |
The internal structure is most likely Mylar and certainly not organic as an FYI. |
The more I think about this I'm inclined to believe the Duelund CAST is what its makers say it is . Personally I don't know of a Teflon capacitor that sounds like the Duelund. So if it is "plastic", how did they get it to be superbly organic and natural in character? The internal construction could be oat bran and toilet paper. Bottom line is they sound superb and serve as a supreme benchmark for other audio capacitors.
Charles, |
Grannyring does this mean that the Dueland is closer to a teflon cap. |
A quick search shows that most, including Parts Connextion, lists them as PIO caps. However, Jimmy's Junkyard capacitor thread lists them as Mylar. |
I am not sure Duelund claims or ever claimed paper and no plastic, but many of us assumed that as did reviewers.
They may have some oil, but certainly not impregnated in the plastic stuff.
None of this takes away from the sound, but I do find it interesting. I am Into the story of products and how they are built and designed. |
I don`t know why Duelund would be misleading about the construction of their capacitors(if they indeed are] I haven`t cut one open. I can only account for what I hear and I love what they`ve done in my individual case.Volleyguy had one CAST capacitor that leaked. What was it leaking?
Charles, |
Correction " the little oil that MAY be there". Looks to be none. |
The Duelund CAST may contain some oil but it would not impregnate the Mylar type substance inside the cap. Some suggest the little that is there may be to preserve the copper? |
Yes, you are correct. Wax instead on oil............ |
The Jupiter copper caps are paper and wax....no oil. |
Some interesting information is coming out on the very good Duelund CAST caps. I have seen pictures of one cut in half and it is pretty interesting what is inside. They contain lots of a plastic type substance and no paper or oil. Ya, you are reading this correctly.
This certainly takes nothing away from their good sound, but I had always thought they were paper in oil types? I think all the independent reviews list this cap as PIO and it is not apparently.
The new Jupiter caps are indeed PIO with copper foil. They continue to sound better past 100 hours and for electronics they are very special indeed. Love to hear some in my speakers once those values are out! |
Salectric
I hear you. Thanks!
I am pretty sure - via anecdotal evidence - that this unit does have output coupling caps. I know of similar players that have had them changed.
I'm booked in with a technician (audio modification is his specialty) next Thursday.
Thanks again. Invaluable.
Tas |
Don't overlook the possibility that the DAC may have a direct-coupled output in which case you don't need any output caps. You really need a tech to look over the unit to make sure what part is doing what before you start replacing things. On an expensive unit like that, you want to be especially careful that you don't damage the circuit board. |
Hmmm - some thought provoking information coming out. I knew you wouldn't let me down!
Salectric - power supply filter? I really think you may be right. I believe the Nichicon 470µF caps are NOT the coupling caps.
This player - Meridian 800 VAX V4 - is designed like a PC ie many modular parts all connecting into a motherboard. I have two analogue output cards - one just for my main speakers(left/right) and the other for the surround speakers & subwoofer.
There should be one coupling cap per channel - there are two nichicons 470µF caps on each of the analogue cards. Earlier today I could have sworn there were two on the stereo and three on the surround. I was wrong and I mislead my technician by giving him the information that I had three on the surround card.
Ok - now I have to apologise. I incorrectly observed the facts. Sorry folks.
I think it's time I had this unit on a bench in front of this technician and he made a firm assessment. At this early stage I can say that there are two 100µF caps on the stereo card and three 100µF caps in the same position of the surround card (perhaps indicating they are the output coupling caps?!) but I won't swear to anything being anything until I get some expert advice my end. Sorry again folks!
Grannyring - if I have any doubts about my attempt on this I'll just get this audio technician to do the cap installation. My unit is hand built and not too hard to work on. I am confident with my soldering but the trick with this install will be packing the caps neatly amongst all the hardware. I don't think it's too hard for me but you are 100% correct. I'll take no chances.
I should be able to get this player in front of my technician next Tuesday to determine where things are. I'll keep you guys posted.
Charles - my player (which cost someone, somewhere, around $40,000 retail in Australia new), in its day (around 8 years ago), was reputedly the best DVD and DVD-Audio player in the world. Which is definitely not to say Meridian didn't take short cuts. I only just replaced the switch mode power supply in it with a linear one a few months ago with great results! It does amaze me where a manufacturer will try and save money.
In the case of my output coupling caps, I am thinking that my unit will be old enough that the caps we have all been talking about simply didn't exist when this unit was designed/built and that that's the main reason they will make an improvement now. However, Salectric, I've heard and respect everything you say. Thank you.
You guys are an incredible. Thank you for being out there. One of these days, we should try and organise a "convention" or meet up. I'd love to listen to music and eat and drink for an unreasonable amount of time! lol
Take care, Tas |
This is starting to make sense, inexpensive mass market CD players using very large value but poor quality capacitors. Certainty this partially explains the typically crappy sound heard from these types of players. I'd be genuinely shocked if a Duelund or Jupiter capacitor doesn't provide a significant improvement in the sound quality.
Charles, |
One other thing to consider. Replacing caps on a circuit board is more work. It can be a lot more work if space is tight, the board is cheap, the board has to be removed, there are small resistors in close proximity.........
It can be tricky and ask yourself if you are up to the task. If you over heat the board you will lift a pad or trace easily. You ould damage the unit so much that you need a new board or more likely.........trash the unit depending on age.
Are you up to the task? Practice on a $30 player/board many times desoldering parts and replacing. You also need a good soldering station. |
Salectric is right. If you are certain you have the right position and they are not power supply caps, then replace them. If they are output caps, then no need for that value and a 1 uf will be fine.
I replaced the 100uf output caps in my Sony NS 900 CD player with .47uf Duelund CAST two years ago and the improvement was astouding!
Salectric explained it well. Just be sure those are the right caps to replace. Wether 47uf, 100uf or 470uf, if they are output caps, then 1 uf will work great. Most inexpensive, mass market, CD players use these very large value electrolytic caps as output caps as an FYI. |
I find it difficult to understand the use of such a high capacitance electrolytic as a DAC's output "coupling" capacitor. On the surface it doesn't make sense ( most are .47uf-1.0uf). 470uf???
Salectric as usual you offer good perspective and advice. It's true, you won't no the result of a modification until you actually hear it.
I'd find it hard to believe that a premium PIO capacitor wouldn't be an improvement over a large value electrolytic as a coupling cap.
Charles, |
Tas, sorry for the confusion on the cap value. Too early in the morning! My comments on replacing the electrolytic with a small value film cap still apply, but the 470 µF value increases my suspicion that this is really a power supply filter rather than an output coupler.
One final comment. Just because a particular part like a Duelund capacitor has nearly unanimous praise does not mean that it will be an overall improvement in a particular application. For example, many years ago I made the mistake of buying a Threshold FET 10E phono stage based on reviewer recommendations. It turned out it had a large nonpolar electrolytic capacitor on the output so I figured I could improve the sound by replacing the electrolytic with a film capacitor. I tried a number of popular capacitors for that day, all of which made significant changes in the sound but overall I kept returning to the cheap electrolytic as the best sound for that particular preamp. It is quite possible you will find that the 470 µF electrolytic used by the manufacturer has some qualities that you sacrifice with a replacement film capacitor. I'm not saying that to discourage you but you need to go into this with your eyes open. |
Salectric
You have my absolute attention! Just before I go on, the Nichicon caps are 470uf NOT 47uf. Does that affect your thoughts here?
They are small (in size) physically......not that that's relevant, I guess.
In lieu of the 470 uf rating, would you say your advice would still apply?
Very excited here
Tas |
TAS, If the Nichicon 47uf caps are really the output caps, you will probably be able to replace them with a much smaller value. I can't say that for certain without looking at a schematic but I suspect you could replace them with a cap in the .47 to 1.0uf range. The mfr most likely used the big Nichicon because it gave a whole lot of capacitance for a small investment in size as well as cost. Unless your preamp input impedance is very low (less than 50k) or the DAC has a low value loading resistor on the output, a small film cap should probably work fine. |
Gentleman, I am not tring to get off subject here, However, I believe it is best to ask my questions here instead of the digital threads, we are talking caps, parts etc... on this thread, I just bought a brand NEW cd-player, I use to own the same player in 2012, this time the unit only came with RCa out-puts, I talked to Ralph of Atmas-phere, and he can and is willing to put balanced connections on the player for me, I live in Mobile,Alabama, St.Paul, MINN is very far away and the turn around time likly would be to long for an hour job at most!, where and who that is reputible that I can call on the phone that is closer to me and can do a quality job of putting Balanced connections on my payer for me, Ralph quoted $150.00 which is a good price, I just do not want to get my player tied up for over 3 weeks max to do a simple job that I am asking, Thankyou Guys in advance. |
@ Grannyring, You mind me asking, what was the cost for the Jupiter foil caps for your Romulas player?, who are the Jupter copper foil caps made by, and where do I get them?, you said that jupiter only makes a cap value of 1uf? |
Hi all
I spent some time talking to a technician about my output coupling capacitors in my digital source ( Meridian 800 DVD/CD player ) and I now know they are Nichicon 470uf/16Volt types - electrolytic. Those values mean that - as far as I know - Duelund and Jupiter (PIO) caps are completely out of the question. Needless to say I am really disappointed.
After being bowled over by the difference in before/after with my speakers I was very eager to do the same in my dac. Folks - this process of improvement is unbelievably addictive!! lol
A question to the thread members - can anyone please suggest any options for capacitors to substitute into the positions I have here?
I look forward to hearing from you and thanks very much in advance!
Tas |
Tas,
The Jupiter copper foil capacitor appears to be an excellent choice for your DAC.If they do for you what the Duelund CAST did in my DAC, you're in for a major treat{for less money than I happily spent}.Not a bad way to go.
Charles, |
I have to update all on these Jupiter copper foil caps after over 100 hours of break-in. They keep getting better and better.
They are so darn real sounding. The micro details of human voice and instrument is astounding. Couple this with the sense of heft, weight and body they have and no cap is it's equal.....no cap.
They have an uncanny sense of depth and while I have said this before, the unforced naturalness is such a welcomed musical reality. Smoothness is state of the art without a doubt. Ya, I am worked up over these music making parts. Placed in critical positions, they will make you smile and pay attention to the music.....
Do not judge these until you get at least 100 hours. If they continue to get better, my wife will need to sedate me!
Note....these are the smaller value caps for electronics. They are used in my Thor TPA30 tube amps....4 in each amp as part of the signal path. Four in my Aesthetix Romulus CD player. |
The Jupiter caps are not forward sounding or forced in the least. I have used them as output caps and coupling caps in my gear and they are very special.
More pleased with these in terms of musicality than any other cap I have tried, and I have tried lots :-) |
@ Ptmconsulting, The fact you said that the jupiter caps did not sound forward got my attention more than eany thing else!, I hate forward sounding equipment and cables, does not sound real, alot of people do not realize they are hearing this, they believe it must be better because of the in your face perspective, magnified, so to speak of, I enjoyed your post and others posting here, I know I am reading seasoned audiophile's post, they know a forward presatation is not realistic, and at the end of the day, two dimensional. |
I also picked up a few Jupiters and burned them in for about 50 hours before installing. I used a .1uF in my speaker crossover as a bypass to the in series caps, a 1.0uF in my phono stage as the coupling cap, and a .01uF as a bypass to a V-Cap OIMP in my preamp output coupling cap.
After the 50 hour burn in and installation things sounded very well balanced, but flat. Another 10 hours made them open up, where I got the top end extension back. Another 10 hours and later Sunday night I heard the dimensionality return. They now sound very nice indeed. Well balanced, extended, airy and without any hint of hardness or sibilence.
I bet there is a bit more burn in to go, but they are sounding very sweet indeed right now. Plenty of air, nice texture, good dynamics, balanced top to bottom, extended without glare or forwardness, great image/soundstaging, a "real" palpability to instruments. Just hugely musical.
Took about 70 hours of break in, which is definitely on the light side for premium caps. We will see if there is more to come as time goes by. |
Tas,
Your description of the speakers is precisely what I hear, "purer, bigger, more lifelike". Crossover capacitor quality does matter, significantly.
Charles, |
Bill, Charles,
thank you very much. I've contacted a technician (does mods locally) who I will get to identify the values of my output coupling caps and my next step will be to order the Jupiter Copper caps from Parts Connexion. This last step will be a sublime pleasure. I'm so close to total and absolute satisfaction I can taste it.
The speakers are wonderful, really wonderful. I'm still running them in and they're now better each time I listen to them. Purer, bigger, more lifelike - love them. |
Tas,
The capacitors are 1 per channel (so just 1 pair is needed). If you click my system page and then click my Yamamoto DAC you'll see a picture of the installed CAST. If Grannyring believes the Jupiter is equal to the CAST that's very good news and saves you money. I'm not familiar with your DAC but surely superior output capacitors can't hurt.
Here's my perspective, The 1 pair of Duelund CAST cost me 459.00. You could easily spend 2-3x that (or more) for a pair of quality interconnect cables and not get the same improvement rendered from the CAST capacitors. For me the CAST represented a substantially high value/reward result.
Charles, |
Bill
Jupiter copper instead of Duelund CAST? Love hearing this kind of advice - thanks!!! Specific and to the point.
Thanks Bill |
Tas, put the Jupiter copper in your dac based on your comments thus far. The total balance of your system will please you greatly with these in your dac. |
Charles,
thanks for the reply! Output coupling position? Ok. Did you require one cap per channel or is that a single capacitor? That sounds like a marvellous next step for me. My analogue output is built on a card in slot arrangement (like a pc) and there is plenty of room. A CAST cap (or two) won't be a problem especially if it's something low level like 1uf. I have a reasonable feeling that this will go a long way to taming my "aggressive" treble which I believe is coming from my DAC.
Many thanks! Tas |
Tas,
The Jupiter capacitors seem to be an ideal candidate for your DAC based on Grannyring's ringing endorsement. The CAST in my DAC has been a spectacular sucess (1uf output coupling position). If either of these two caps fit into your DAC I'd go for it. You'll have premium capacitors to begin the signal path and again exiting at the speaker.
Charles, |
Hi Tas,
Perhaps it's the different systems we have but I didn't experience the occasionally aggressive treble you mentioned. Immediately apparent was an increased resolution and detail/information retrieval. However the innate natural character improved! More resolution yet the organic quotient elevated simultaneously. That's special in my book. Tas you are well on your way.
Charles, |
Roxy54
Yes responded twice? |
