Strange. They are better than Duelund to many ears in electronics. That was certainly the case in my system. It could be your amp, position in circuit, your total system mix etc.... Who knows, but nothing is ever 100% for everyone.
If you don't have at least 50-100 hours, then wait. If you do, then in your system another cap may indeed be better for you.
I am a tone freak and love inner detail. Jupiter does that in spades. Dynamics? I guess I never noticed a real difference in this regard. |
Piling on the hours on the Jupiter caps. I know this will set off a firestorm.
Jupiter's are not noisy in any way have a clear top end (sometimes intoxicatingly clear) but I just do not find them in the league of the CAST in dynamics...
I will continue to give more of a listen but right now I am ticked that my CAST leaked and I do not have replacements...
Options are tying RS?
The CAST is likely 5x the volume in size of Jupiter and well, sounds it. I have yet ever to find a smaller cap a more dynamic cap...
Am I upset with the Jupiter's? No in the tight area of my amp the small size of the cap (and affordable price) is an asset and the CAST would not fit without big modifications... (plus big $$$ in several caps)
I am not sure to this day I agree with Tony's scores. I originally thought 17 for CAST would be about right. I am not sure why he rates other caps so close? Not to me...
I also have the Beeswax Jupiter's and I do not find or have not heard at least yet a big difference to the Copper's...
Tony quote on Jupiter Beeswax (good description not offensive in any way)
"I find them very pleasing to listen to".
I expect Tony to rate the Jupiter Copper's around 12?
That is my early guess... Oh how I would love the $33 cap to better the $200 one |
Update on the Jupiter caps in my crossover. They have opened up nicely and I could not be more pleased. Very happy with my purchase.
They seem to open up and improve in a short 50 hours or so. I am at around 100 hours now and am told by the builder they will improve up to 200 hours. I am ecstatic with the music at 100 hours! |
Agreed Charles. Resistors are relatively cheap $5-$15 and folks overlook them. They play a significant role for sure in musicality and resolution. It is certainly much easier and doable if you can perform these mods yourself and listen...change etc...If not, it can be a big hassle and expensive. |
"Super Franks" now there's a concept!
Bill I always appreciate your input but you go much deeper into modifications than I care to. I just go for simple yet high bang for the buck mods and leave it there. Duelund caps in my speaker Xover and DAC worked out splendidly and I'm very happy. If the Jupiter Cu foil give me half of that in the Frankenstein that would be very satisfying(given the Franks high baseline performance). I don't believe changing the input coupling capacitor(amplifier) is as "significant" as the output coupling caps in the DAC or the speaker Xover tweeter caps. I could be making wrong assumptions.
Charles, |
Look out Charles as you must now look at the all important resistors in key positions. Oh ya, they matter. Some nice Vishay TX 2575 Z Foils! Also the very musical Shinkoh. Super Franks! |
Hi Joe,
I'm doing this primarily out of curiosity. This capacitor is in the signal path so it must affect the sound to "some" degree.I suspect the interstage transformer has a more important role in this circuit. However it seems all parts matter in audio components. The Frankenstein sounds excellent with the stock Solens capacitor, what will the Jupiter capacitor change? I'll soon find out.
Charles, |
Charles, don't expect a tremendous difference in the Franks. Maybe because it also uses an interstage transformer, I don't know.
Is it a worthwhile improvement, I think so. The Solens on some recordings can sound a little sharp. The Jupiters are very liquid sounding with great detail, but in a natural musical way. Give them some time and you'll be very happy!
Joe |
I will have the capacitors installed tomorrow and then post an early impression in a few days. |
Charles, let us know how the Jupiter sounds in your system. I did the same like you with Dueland cap in tweeter and I loved it. |
I've ordered the Jupiter Cu foil capacitors. One pair of the 0.47uf were 176.00, the Duelund CAST in the same size are 380.00 per pair(The CAST have proven themselves in my system). I am curious to hear what these caps will do as coupling caps between the 1st and 2nd stages of my amplifier. If they positively impact/improve the sound of an already terrific sounding SET amplifier, I'll be impressed.
Charles, |
Tasouli
Take a look at my system page....many changes. My new speaker is Lahave and I upgraded the crossover and placed it externally.
I purchased them from Chris at Jupiter directly. He has a few now, but not enough to add them to his website just yet. No retailer has them just yet....but very soon. |
Thanks for the encouragement Bill. I will be ordering some soon.
Mike |
Hi all
Been reading along with everyone's efforts here and glad the Jupiters are so promising.
Bill. A few questions please.
Where have you purchased your 100V (speaker rated) Jupiter caps from? I can't see them on Parts Connexion or the Jupiter site. All I can find are the 600V (electronics rated) versions. Did you place the Jupiters into your Coincidents speakers? Just the tweeter?
Cheers,Tas |
Oh, now I see, you "really" got my hope up there for a minute.
Charles, |
Ha, no, no Charles. I said I am one million percent sure he will like the whatever percentage improvement!
Ya, Jupiter should hire me to sell their line and be comfortable that I will never over promise and under deliver :) |
Wow! 1, 000, 000%, that's saying something Bill. I'd had been happy with a true 10-15% improvement. Now expectations are really high.Look at what you've done.
Charles, |
Marqmike
I am 1,000,000 percent sure the Jupiter caps will make you smile big! A no brainer. Just replace the same value caps. You need to first know what is inside and how they are mounted..
No downsides and only big smile improvements.
Glad to help you. |
Hey Bill. Nice to hear. Thanks for the feedback on those. Your enthusiasm is what makes our systems so fun and meaningful. Thanks for sharing.
Do you think it would improve and not throw my balance out of kilter on my speakers if I replace caps in my x-over in my vienna mozart grands with some jupiters. I know nobody will know for sure until it is done, but, from your experience with changing some out in some speakers and knowing something about the mozarts what comes to your mind about that. Now you don't have to give me any hope here, because if you do I will probably ask you more about doing it. I have never worked on a x-over, but soldering is no problem for me and I think I can read values on a cap. in order the get right ones. But who knows because I have never done it. Anyway thanks for your info. |
Thanks Joe for your reply. |
Charles, I think about 40 hrs. plus they start sounding better and stabilize around 150 to 200hrs.
I think your gonna really like them in the Franks.
Joe |
Thanks for the tip Bill. I'm ordering the Jupiter caps next week and look forward to hearing what sonic changes they will provide in the Frankenstein. Bill, how many hours of use until they began to"opened up" in your electronics roughly speaking? By the way, it was you who introduced me to the Duelund CAST several years ago and I've always appreciated that. Now I'll discover what the Jupiter Cu foil has to offer with my SET.
Charles, |
Charles the caps are marked with a line on one side of the label. This is the outer foil side. Just be sure and tell your tech guy. |
Forgot to mention the burn in process on the new Jupiter copper foil crossover caps. My observations were based on about 6-7 hours of burn in. Yes, only 7 hours for this reaction and I expect further refinement over the next 100-200 hours.
The first couple of hours sounded good for sure. You immediately hear glimpses of the greatness to come. They sound ready to bust-out, but are a little closed in and seem to be holding back if you will.
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Charles you made the right choice. However much sonic improvement can be squeezed from that part position in your circuit will indeed be realized. |
I have to report on the new Jupiter copper foil caps for speaker crossovers. These are the 100v larger value caps. I purchased two 3.3uf and two 1 uf caps to parallel on my Raal tweeters. They cost me some $594 for all of them. Not cheap, but wait till you read my review here.
I know I am an emotional or passionate type of audio enthusiast. I share with all here when I like something. I have had past moments when an upgrade really floored me and took my music to another level. Those moments were exciting and fun. Yesterday stands alone as the singularly most arresting moment I have had in audio as it relates to the hardware influencing the music. Words are hard to pick and I am not that inclined to strain for the right Aphile word right now.
Perhaps it is the synergy with my system, perhaps the good Lord has miraculously granted me bionic ears during the prior evening's sleep, but these new crossover caps from Jupiter transformed an already stellar system. I could not even imagine reproduced music sounding like this. Luscious waves of never ending beautiful tones enveloping every square inch of space around me. Music with such beauty, texture and naturally resolved tone that my jaw was indeed resting on the floor.
The only other audio moment in my life matching this event was the first time I heard a real fine stereo system in 1976. I listened to Aerosmith on my best friend's older brother's system and at that moment I caught the Aphile virus. Yesterday was every bit as revelatory.
Chris at Jupiter is very soft spoken and modest. He calmly told me before I soldered them in that they are like nothing else I have ever heard. He was right and now I share this reality with the rest of you. |
I've decided to give the Jupiter Cu foil capacitors a go in my Frankenstein MK II amplifier. Joe and Grannyring's experiences are very persuasive. I know what the Duelund CAST has done for me and love them. Enough people have directly compared these two and concluded that the Jupiter is the sonic equal or perhaps better for considerably less money. All I require is 1 pair (1 cap for each mono bock) and that's it. There's lots of space in the amplifier for either brand of capacitor. I'm hooked on the natural dielectric material design as well. The more I think about it, as wonderful as the Frankenstein sounds, either of these two should honestly be an upgrade to the generic Solens capacitor (I'll see if this is in fact true). Carefully fine tuning already proven audio components has been successful for me so far. I hope that trend continues with this decision.
Charles, |
Joe,
At what point in terms of hours did the treble begin to open up? Given the high baseline organic character of the Frankenstein it is intriguing the Jupiter Cu foil increases this attribute further. |
Bigkidz (Peter), Yes, that's how they sounded before break-in. Now the treble is very open, airy, with a beautiful organic tone and timbre.
Once I get settled Peter, you and Carl should come over for a listen.
My listening room is much larger now.
Best,
Joe |
Charles1dad, yes C Core transformers are excellent and double C Core is what I use in my preamp. As for Snopro, my partner installed the caps. Overall sound was better than what was inside, with better sound stage and instrument separation but the caps sounded a little rolled of in high frequencies in comparison. As IMO, all caps have trade-offs. |
Roxy54,
What I understand is that C core transformers are considered highly desirable for SET amps per Audio Note engineer Andy Grove. My amplifier's builder insists on the use of double C core transformers as well. I don't really know the technical aspects but I'll take their "informed" word based on my listening impressions. I believe that you have purchased a very fine SET amplifier.
Charles, |
Hi Charles,
They do offer options. I opted for the Khozmo attenuator upgrade (I bought it as an integrated, it can also be configured as an just an amp) and the C core transformers, which are actually the biggest and most expensive difference between the 10th Anniversary and the regular unit. |
Hi Roxy54,
Congratulations on your new amplifier. The AN Kit amps have a very good reputation for sound quality(I've no personal experience with them). As long as you have an appropriate speaker match you should really enjoy them for many years. I understand they offer various output transformer upgrade choices as well as other parts.
Charles, |
Volleyguy,
I was very interested in your observation that the Jupiters were sounded overdamped at first. I took delivery of a Audio Note Kits Kit 1 Tenth Anniversary 300b integrated 2 weeks ago,(professionally built for me by Digital Pete) and for a variety of reasons, I didn't have a lot of time to put hours on it. When I ordered it, I specified (and provided) (4) 0.22 Jupiter copper foil output caps. When I first started to listen, I was surprised by the poorly extended and bouncy, overdamped bass. Not being used to SET amps to begin with, I was a little alarmed. I knew efficiency was not a problem with my speakers.
Anyway, just a short time into break-in now, the bass is loosening up as well as becoming more extended. Overall, very happy with the sound, although I know there is a lott more burning in to go.
I want to say thanks to you, Charles and Grannyring for making me aware of these caps. I wanted really good ones, and even if I could have afforded Duelund CAST, or even the less expensive series that I have in my DAC, they would not have fit in the shallow chassis of the amp. |
Volleyguy,
Gon member Snopro has the same SET amplifier as I do. On his system page he says he replaced the stock Solens(used with the 6em7 input/driver tube)with the Jupiter Cu foil. He is pleased with the results and said burn in was 200 hours in his case.
Charles, |
Will do Charles
If you remember I could not use the Duelund WPIO tweeter inductor? The vintage wax one was quieter but there was DCR change.
I can say much like using Poly caps and oil it was weird in stereo at first different discharge rates?
The Jupiter's to me were dead out of the box but do change in time maybe more than the CAST did.
I can say I have been quite impressed with the high end clarity!
Still looking for faults with the mindset you are thinking. |
Hi Volleyguy,
I eagerly look forward to your comparisons, my admiration and success with the Duelund CAST is quite similar to yours. You are a very good reference point for me. I do subscribe to the natural vs synthetic material idea. While I certainly accept the "implementation" argument, I do lean toward the better sound with natural material concept. So I'd gravitate towards paper in oil or wax rather than teflon/plastics generally speaking. My interconnects and speaker cable(Ocellia Silver Reference) adhere to the "natural" material (dielectric") principle and they are beautiful and utterly organic in character/tone with excellent resolution. Take your time and report back when you're ready.
Thanks,
Charles, |
Charlesdad
Still working in the hours the Jupiters are tight and damped when new...
They have opened up though.
Jupiter's are very low resonance for sure.
People who say caps do not matter is just crazy! Even the difference in good caps is big!
In order to use Duelund CAST in these tight spots major work was going to have to be done on the amp. I am for sure not doing that work and using the Jupiters.
Better than Duelund I need more time on them for that and more time for me.
Wax is different from oil like oil is different from Teflon. |
I have the new copper ones. Are you saying they are not the ones you are speaking of? What is the difference between the HT flat and round? Same cap different size for installation or are they different? What would you suggest for output caps in an amp?
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I think I have some left around maybe .1uf sizes. What gear did you put the V-caps in? What do you have in copper V-Caps? shoot me a direct message if you can I don't look at audiogon that much anymore |
Pete, if you have used Jupiter copper foil caps I will buy them from you. I find the Vcaps to cold, sterile and electronic sounding for my tastes.
No meat on the bones! |
The older, less expensive Jupiter caps had that problem Pete. Not the new ones. I think you heard the old ones, not the brand new copper foil ones. The new ones spank the Vcaps all day long.
Jupiter makes HT flat stacked and HT round which replaced the old leaky caps you speak of. These were and are aluminum caps......not the brand new copper foil. |
Everything has limitations. I am working on building x-overs without caps now. Removing caps in the preamp to me has produced the best sound I have ever heard. In my comparisons, the caps get saturated compared to the transformers causing the sound to become (for lack of better description) hard sounds and bright. I don't think that a cap can react fast enough compared to the transformer so they sound a little stressed in direct comparison in my preamp design andother preamps that I modify. I also wind my own transformers because I could not find any company that made them for my design that were not without limitations, even a few custom designed ones. I have spend over three years testing and building transformers to get to where I am happy today. So far, I don't hear the limitations as much as any cap I have tried in the preamp and I have a box full of them. I also tried the Jupiter caps but I still prefer the V-Cap coppers to the Jupiter caps. The V-Caps are much more open, dynamic with more resolution. The Jupiter were a little warmer in the mids but lack the other attributes of the V-caps IMO. So far I have not come up with a design to remove the caps in the amp as mentioned above. But I am working on a hybrid power amp that will also use DHT tubes in the front end, all point-to-point wiring like the preamp I build. Anyone in the NYC area is welcome to come hear what I build or I may consider shipping a prototype one out.
Is there any truth to the rumor that the Jupiter cap having issues with heat from amps (wax melted)? Someone mentioned that they read something about this but I have not taken the time to investigate. I could be way off base here. |
Charles for electronics go with Jupiter. Just better in tube amps and preamps based on my experience as well as at least 5 others who replaced CAST with Jupiter copper caps.
I have not used them in a phono stage, but have had SOTA results in my tube amps and CD player. They are more even handed top to bottom, have more air and improved micro details. I also find them a tad smoother in the upper mids.
Both would be a big improvement if your amp has a Solen cap or something of like quality.
I know builders now using Jupiter instead of Duelund based on SQ only. |
I'm considering changing the capacitors in my amplifier's 1st gain stage(associated with the 6em7 driver tube section). The Jupiter Cu foil has my interest(given the praise posted here). However I've been so pleased with the Duelund CAST effect in my DAC and speakers(truly brilliant results). It will be one or the other if I go forward. I suspect that either capacitor will one will be fine.Volleyguy, I'm curious to read your comparison of these two products. |
They fell off? Do you mean they broke off from handling? I have had that happen with caps when I was bending the wire leads too much. The thinner gauge silver leads seem more prone to that.
I assume you can get refunded? Perhaps you should call Chris at Jupiter and talk to him. I have installed over 18 of these Jupiter caps with no issues.......knock on wood... |
On the more follow I was talking about.
One of the leads just fell off the Jupiter Copper Foil. When installing the other ones I was being so careful it was crazy and then another fell off.
I have never had a lead of ANY cap fall off and the vintage ones are crazy strong...
A little frustration lately with all of this two CAST caps leaked and two Jupiter caps leads fell off. |
Ya nice idea for sure. Needed in crossovers unless you only have one driver .... And I have not head a one driver speaker I like as much as my two way.
Needed in tube amps for coupling unless you use transformers to couple. But transformers have their set of sonic limitations also. Pick your poison!
Direct coupled! Perhaps, need to know more about the downsides that this design....always downsides. |
Bigkidz,
Nice idea, but in practice it seems to be rarely possible. |
Best to get all caps out of the way, they all limit the sound in one way or another.
Happy Listening. |
