Yes I always wear a mask, but mostly ( just in case) to protect others. Apparently masks are much better at stopping the virus spread as opposed to preventing someone of getting the virus by wearing a mask
CAN WE AUDIOPHILES DO OUR PART?
So we're all tired of hearing about nothing but Covid-19 (or, as I term it, the C-Plague). What can we do, as audiophiles, to help with all this.
I was amazed, and delighted, when I went to the Cardas website to see that they are doing their part. Go to their website and you'll see their director, Angela Cardas, wearing a mask. If you click on the Cardas Nautilus logo in the upper left corner, you'll see pictures of people there in the factory making masks with sewing machines. I called the company to congratulate them, and spoke with a woman named Darla, who said it was their way, during this economic slump, to keep their employees working and also their way of trying to "do our part."
I'm not writing all this to advertise Cardas products. They are a very good company, but trust your ears, not anything I write, when it comes to buying their products. They do get credit, however, for helping me come to a realization that pushed me in the right direction. I called a woman I am friends with, who is 85 years old and is a good seamstress, to suggest she start making masks. She already was--and is. By phone she has organized several other women to do the same, and right now they are needing more material and elastic. I managed to gather about 50 pounds of material and am starting to gather elastic while also getting more material. But I don't sew. I can't help out with that. Any ideas as to what we--all of us who are good with our ears and focused with our budgets--can do to help out in other ways?
I realize this is an odd topic to bring to an audio forum, but it was a very socially responsible audio company that got me to thinking about it, and frankly I believe I should be socially responsible enough to do what I can to get other people to thinking about it. While also being open to other people's ideas about ways someone like me who is "just an audiophile" can help.
Thank you, in advance, for any and all ideas on this.
I was amazed, and delighted, when I went to the Cardas website to see that they are doing their part. Go to their website and you'll see their director, Angela Cardas, wearing a mask. If you click on the Cardas Nautilus logo in the upper left corner, you'll see pictures of people there in the factory making masks with sewing machines. I called the company to congratulate them, and spoke with a woman named Darla, who said it was their way, during this economic slump, to keep their employees working and also their way of trying to "do our part."
I'm not writing all this to advertise Cardas products. They are a very good company, but trust your ears, not anything I write, when it comes to buying their products. They do get credit, however, for helping me come to a realization that pushed me in the right direction. I called a woman I am friends with, who is 85 years old and is a good seamstress, to suggest she start making masks. She already was--and is. By phone she has organized several other women to do the same, and right now they are needing more material and elastic. I managed to gather about 50 pounds of material and am starting to gather elastic while also getting more material. But I don't sew. I can't help out with that. Any ideas as to what we--all of us who are good with our ears and focused with our budgets--can do to help out in other ways?
I realize this is an odd topic to bring to an audio forum, but it was a very socially responsible audio company that got me to thinking about it, and frankly I believe I should be socially responsible enough to do what I can to get other people to thinking about it. While also being open to other people's ideas about ways someone like me who is "just an audiophile" can help.
Thank you, in advance, for any and all ideas on this.
587 responses
| Post removed |
Okay fair deal ozzy62, I will send you over some paper work then for you to sign. It will state that you will agree to:
Please have it witnessed as well. Thank You ozzy62919 posts05-14-2020 2:26pm And even then, it should be their choice depending on how concerned they are for THEIR own health. |
@snarbut said: Right, they aren’t that bad in
the setting of dramatic measures taken to stop the further spread of the
virus. That is not the same as saying they never would have been that
bad. I suppose this is my biggest point. Don’t use the fact that things
didn’t explode in the setting of drastic measures being taken to
downplay the seriousness of the situation." Well that's just the problem. First, as you say, came the dire predictions. They did not pan out. Not anywhere close. You suggest that is because of the stringent response. But, as a physician you understand that because two things are true does not mean they are related. And in the case of stay at home orders, shutting down schools and closing businesses (but not Walmart of course) there is no solid evidence that it worked or even could work. Recent data of testing all the members of large groups is showing that large percentages of those testing positive were completely asymptomatic. Much larger than previously thought. This shows several things including that the virus is more pervasive than previously thought, less deadly than previously thought and probably around longer than thought. This, coupled with the fact that an increasing number of cases are being found in those who have strictly followed social isolation as well as new cases in nursing homes that have followed strict guidelines. But there is an even much bigger problem in your reasoning here. As soon as nationwide measures were put in place and regularly thereafter the predictions continued to be spectacularly wrong even with the preventive measures taken into account. And by spectacularly wrong, I mean staggeringly wrong. Day after day and week after week. And yet, the policy makers continued to cite those numbers as the reason for their policies without ever addressing the failures of those projections. This continues today. I am following them in my state daily. They are simply bizarre and they have not come close. Not even once. Not even as it winds down here. Further, the goal of lock down measures was said to be to "flatten the curve". In our state it was predicted that we would have peak cases sometime in mid May and could overwhelm the hospital capacity at that time. Then , suddenly in the third week of April the CDC and IHME announced that we had past our peak on or before April 11! AND, that there was no possibility whatsoever that we would come anywhere close to overwhelming the hospitals. And given all that the rhetoric and the recommendations never changed! In fact, the rhetoric (social and regular media) escalated to a fever pitch. Then it incorporated virtue shaming to indicate that everyone should be wearing masks despite zero good evidence to that effect! The point is that we based our response on projections that were NEVER and still are not accurate and some, like you seem to be, are claiming that measures based on those projections were effective when it is not clear that they were AND raise the specter of a population without herd immunity OR a vaccine. When you put that in the balance with staggering blows to the economy, the healthcare sector, small businesses and the mortality and morbidity associated with social isolation then it is very clear that we might have handled things differently. You demur about a correct path and that is fine, and probably reasonable. But there have been many voices among top epidemiologists and researchers that the path we took was the wrong one. Those voices were there from the beginning. They were shouted down and silenced. |
A few thoughts about masks: First, we know that coronavirus is spread by droplets. Virtually any barrier in front of the face will keep droplets out of the nose and mouth of the wearer. In that regard, the mask being worn is primarily to protect the wearer and is effective in that role. So if you need a mask you should wear one to protect yourself. Sure there may be some added protection for others if you wear a mask. But not much over the mask they should be wearing if they need one. So in this case the idea that we should wear a surgical or homemade mask to protect others is not really logical. Second, there is some concern that the virus is spread as an aerosol. There is no confirmation of this and even Fauci has said he cannot prove it. An aerosolized virus can linger in the air like a mist. To be protected from an aerosol you would need to have a custom fitted N95 medical mask that allows no air in around the nose and chin area and filters better than typical masks. Virtually no one has these. With all other masks, even surgical masks, air can be drawn in around the edges and thus would not protect you from an aerosolized virus. For that very same reason a regular or homemade mask worn by someone with COVID will not effectively protect someone else. If that person coughs or sneezes then aerosolized particles will shoot out of the edges of the mask into the room. Again, it might provide some protection for others, but not much. And again….there is currently no proof that this virus is spread by aerosol anyway. So unless we are all wearing fitted N95 masks then the idea that we should wear a surgical mask or homemade mask to protect others is flawed. It might even make things worse since it will give at-risk people the idea that they can go out in public when they shouldn’t. Which brings me to the most important technical consideration: If a person has risk factors that make them more likely to contract the virus and/or suffer dire consequences they should not be relying on the typical or homemade masks they are wearing and even less so on the mask that someone else is wearing to protect them. It is a false sense of security. They are the ones who need to stay home for their own safety. |
If someone who has the virus whether he knows it or not sneezes in your general direction the cloud of Water droplets carrying the virus can land anywhere on your face, hands, hair, not only on the mask. You can get infected via the ears and eyes or by rubbing your face at some later point in time your hands. Plus you can handle mask with droplets on it later unwittingly. So, no, actually the mask will not protect you. It offers a false sense of security if you think you can’t contract the virus by wearing a mask in public. Even nurses who were wearing masks died of COVID-19. In the WH they must wear masks in the left wing now, but it’s not to protect the wearers of the masks, it’s to protect you know who. Lastly the reason why the suggestions were issued for wearing masks was to help prevent the spread of the virus, a reaction to the continuing problem of increasing cases and deaths. |
| Post removed |
audition_audio meet n80 n80 A few thoughts about masks: First, we know that coronavirus is spread by droplets. Virtually any barrier in front of the face will keep droplets out of the nose and mouth of the wearer. In that regard, the mask being worn is primarily to protect the wearer and is effective in that role. So if you need a mask you should wear one to protect yourself. |
This just in! Speak of the devil! Virologist hospitalized with coronavirus believes he got it through his eyes "We tend to pay attention to the nose and mouth," the doctor said. "But you know, droplets landing on your eyes are just as infectious." Virologist Dr. Joseph Fair, an NBC News contributor who has been hospitalized with coronavirus despite being in good health and taking precautions against getting sick, said Thursday that he believes he contracted the virus through his eyes on a crowded flight. The 42-year-old virologist and epidemiologist, who has responded to multiple outbreaks around the world, got sick about three days after a flight to his home in New Orleans. |
Pretty much any metropolitan area that has not implemented strict measures had a large outbreak, and even with strict measures, the outbreaks are significant. To say we don't know if they are related is ludicrous, based on available data we have for this virus already. While antibody rates are higher then expected, the sampling so far is minimal, and there is nothing to indicate a mortality overall of at least 1%, which if 50% of the US became infected, would be 1.6 million people, except it would end up being much higher because at that infection rate, the hospitals would be overwhelmed and the death rate would go up. It is because of the effectiveness of distancing measures this has been avoided. It is so easy to see in the graphs the direct impacts of these measures. To claim we can say that for sure is ludicrous. There is no evidence, beyond some weak anecdotal evidence, of it being around longer than thought, except maybe a few weeks to a month. See the post I made earlier about the choir practice and how supercarriers can infect huge numbers in close quarters. Look at meat packing plant infection rates. If it had been around longer, these things would have been happening. Epidemiology and medical doctor are not the same skill set as well. It really gives you little in the way of special skills to predict what will happen. Someone good at math, statistics and modelling will be far better qualified. How do cases get found in those that strictly isolated? ... 1) They were not as strict as claimed (or most likely thought). 2) The incubation period can be longer than 2 weeks. Walmarts are grocery stores. Well that's just the problem. First, as you say, came the dire predictions. They did not pan out. Not anywhere close. You suggest that is because of the stringent response. But, as a physician you understand that because two things are true does not mean they are related. And in the case of stay at home orders, shutting down schools and closing businesses (but not Walmart of course) there is no solid evidence that it worked or even could work. Recent data of testing all the members of large groups is showing that large percentages of those testing positive were completely asymptomatic. Much larger than previously thought. This shows several things including that the virus is more pervasive than previously thought, less deadly than previously thought and probably around longer than thought. This, coupled with the fact that an increasing number of cases are being found in those who have strictly followed social isolation as well as new cases in nursing homes that have followed strict guidelines. |
Of course masks properly worn can protect you if of the N95 or good filtering type. Your statement is all a bunch of if .. if .. if. The most likely action is the drop is in the air and you inhale it. Flow studies and simulations have shown this is the most likely airborn transfer ... inhaled, though eyes can be a transfer point (ears? .. not heard that). The mask does prevent you from touching your mouth and nose, and after you take off your mask, you should sanitize your hands. Someone sneezing on you is not normal.
|
O.K. I know of no person that believes they cant spread the virus when wearing a mask. It is well known that masks reduce the wearer's chance of spreading the disease. I would suggest also that a mask helps reduce the chance of getting the virus. This would seem to me to be pretty obvious. Again no one of even average intelligence doesnt know that the virus can be spread through the nose, mouth and yes even eyes. What is your point? |
No not any barrier. Droplets (not large sneeze/cough particle), have a tendency to break up in the air and the heaviest ones drop fastest. A home made mask is more effective at preventing the exhalation of large droplets, that it is at preventing ingress when the average particle size has reduced some distance from the inhaler. As exhalation is under pressure, the home-made masks are not as good at filtering out small particles being exhaled, but they are better at stopping inhalation. Not intuitive, but ACTUAL TESTS, not anecdotal guesses have shown this. To this end, home made masks (not well made with HEPA), and non-N95/N100 masks, provide more benefit to everyone else, than they do to you. Things won't be logical if you based your logic on guesses and not actual science. First, we know that coronavirus is spread by droplets. Virtually any barrier in front of the face will keep droplets out of the nose and mouth of the wearer. In that regard, the mask being worn is primarily to protect the wearer and is effective in that role. So if you need a mask you should wear one to protect yourself. Sure there may be some added protection for others if you wear a mask. But not much over the mask they should be wearing if they need one. So in this case the idea that we should wear a surgical or homemade mask to protect others is not really logical. |
| Post removed |
The people I know that are serious about not getting the virus wear a N95 type or other good mask AND wear eye protection. Many of you have written reams worth of paper stating that masks are not effective because of the potential eye infection and not come up with the obvious, put on protective glasses. |
heaudio123, you’re even more gullible than I already thought. Most so called n95 masks are not even n95 spec. Why would the governors and states recommended making your own mask? Because it’s to stop the spread. Duh! Jitter is gullible, too but I already knew that. Some people believe anything. They’re desperate. They also believed the pandemic wouldn’t last long, that drugs would come to the rescue, that a vaccine was right around the corner, that millions of tests were available, that the government would supply PPE and tests. |
"Catching a virus" and becoming "sick" is a statistical event. Yes, you can get sick from a single virus. Highly unlikely but you can. When you are exposed, your immune system, even though this is "novel" does not do nothing. It has generalized responses. Every viral particle you are exposed to increases the odds the infection with "catch". Bunches of particles have protection from mucus and water layer of the person transmitting that can increases the likelihood of infection, hence why large droplets are more a concern. Air does leak around the edges even of an N95, but see my first line above. This is all statistic. The infected person wearing a mask, you wearing a mask, distancing especially in indoor spaces, etc. all reduce your statistical chances of catching the virus. It will never be 0 chance if there is an infected person close, but you work to get it as low as possible. Within a society, the goal is to get the R0 < 1, which means cases are dropping, not increasing. All these measures reduce R0. p.s. I wear a P100 respirator for grocery shopping. It's worth it just for the looks I get. Second, there is some concern that the virus is spread as an aerosol. There is no confirmation of this and even Fauci has said he cannot prove it. An aerosolized virus can linger in the air like a mist. To be protected from an aerosol you would need to have a custom fitted N95 medical mask that allows no air in around the nose and chin area and filters better than typical masks. Virtually no one has these. With all other masks, even surgical masks, air can be drawn in around the edges and thus would not protect you from an aerosolized virus. |
Pretty obvious from your posts and mine geoffkait, who knows what they are talking about ... it is not you. geoffkait21,738 posts05-14-2020 5:59pmheaudio123, you’re even more gullible than I already thought. Most so called n95 masks are not even n95 spec. |
Actually, not to beat a dead horse is masks are effective at either preventing the spread of COVID-19 to others or preventing the wearer of the mask contracting the virus why are the numbers of cases and deaths not (rpt not) going down? The number of deaths in the US has remained at about 2K per day average for five weeks, since April 7. Answer at 11. |
@geoffkait Jitter is gullible, too but I already knew that. Some people believe anything. They’re desperateListen, your right, at one time I believed you were someone of some importance in this world. For all your hints, nothing came out of it, except you can't tell us for some security reason. Security this. |
"...is masks are effective at either preventing the spread of COVID-19 to others or preventing the wearer of the mask contracting the virus why are the numbers of cases and deaths not (rpt not) going down?"If you could rephrase it to "if masks are not effective at preventing transmission of the virus, why are the numbers of infected hospital workers not higher?" A little trivia. Out of around 2000 hospital employees tested in a heavily Covid-19 affected hospital, number of positive results was lower than in a random general population of the same community. Was it masks, face shields, too small of a sample, or an underground river flowing in the area? |
To make this light discussion a little more useful. If anyone is seriously interested in protection, this is the one to get... https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/company-us/all-3m-products/~/3M-Versaflo-Heavy-Industry-PAPR-Kit-TR-300N... It is a good deal on this website, but wait time is a bit long. Maybe good enough for a "second wave", if it ever comes? Otherwise, you may need to pay a bit more. https://www.envirosafetyproducts.com/3m-versaflo-tr-300n-hik-powered-air-purifying-respirator-heavy-... In any case, the thing works. |
I don’t wear a mask except when the store I enter requires it. And except for bad pollen days. I practice strict social distancing, not the half ass social distancing you see a lot of, which is the best way to avoid the virus. And don’t touch anything anywhere if you can help it. The virus is still spreading so risk is going up with each passing day. That’s another reason why masks are a bad idea - they instill the False idea in many people that social distancing is not important any more. Masks are generally required or suggested because there are so many asymptomatic people walking around, not to protect you. As Bob Dylan is fond of saying at the end of all his records, good luck to everyone! 🤗 |
Maybe they don't think much where you are geoffkait, but I have not experienced anyone who thinks a mask is magic protection, and if anything people in masks tends to be more "aware" ...it's a constant reminder. This concept that people will treat it like "magic shielding" is conjecture, but with safety equipment, people generally don't treat themselves as invincible. Look for studies on it in general. Often it creates higher awareness of risk. This was the same stupid argument people made about seat-belts believe it or not. Detractors claimed that seat belts would make people drive worse because they would feel invincible. Obviously, that never happened. |
Many hotels in Asia have these or a version of them at least. Inhale though the front, but exhale is inside the unit which causes it to inflate and provides positive pressure. http://m.bijkerk.webnode.nl/assortiment-en-prijzen/informatie-fire-escape-mask/ |
@n80 Wait...there were predictive models early on that predicted a may or whatever peak...we locked down the country...and about 3 weeks after the lock downs we had a peak...instead of May...aaaaaand you're arguing there is no evidence the lockdowns had an effect? You're sticking with that...because some people on tv are speaking non-sense? Enjoy. |
geoffkait, That was interesting. We are Yin and Yang of Coronavirus epidemics approach. I wear a mask and more almost all the time, except at home, in the car, or when on bicycle and there is nobody in sight. I wear goggles often. I do not practice even half the social distancing for myself, spend time in rooms with multiple people, touch whatever is there to be touched. I am fully aware that there is no certain protection and have no sense of false security. Quite the opposite. I rub my neck with a disinfectant multiple times a day. I sometimes do use a handheld UV light to quickly "clean" possible offenders. I would not enter the elevator or an empty hallway without a mask, though. |
| Post removed |
| Post removed |
So totally lacking in self awareness. geoffkait21,745 posts05-14-2020 7:41pmSo gullible! 🤗 In the guise of being scientific. So funny! Perhaps you’ve heard of the continuing problems in Asia concerning COVID-19. |