can someone answer me this.....
kennesawjet, My local hifi store store used to use that same preamp for demo’s. If you were auditioning speakers or amps or whatever he would usually use that exact same preamp and it ALWAYS sounded great. I thought it was a tremendous value every time I would listen to it. If working properly it’s a fantastic preamp for the money. The first question I have for you is which preamp did you use before you got this CJ pre? One of the the members who responded said that the input impedance of the DNA 500 is only 10k. If that is correct then that is unusually low but that’s not going to cause all the issues you describe so I would look elsewhere. If you are going to replace the C J pre there are not a lot of preamps out there that will work with that low of an input impedance. I don’t know what your budget is but I would look at the Backert Labs Rhumba or Rhumba Extreme or the Rhythm models as he uses a proprietary circuit that he designed himself that has an unusually low output impedance of just 75 ohms, that’s not a typo, 75 ohms. Their preamps are supposed to sound great and they start at $4000.00. That would be ideal for that amp. The people that that are claiming the system is too bright, are these people who have heard YOUR system? I don’t understand your statement of “I’ve read that some people claim the system is too bright” are they saying that the ET3SE can be bright? CJ gear can be a little darker sounding but some people like that. Also, how old is this preamp? Due to the fact that it’s been discontinued I would be surprised if it’s not broken in yet. I doubt if that’s the problem. When I look at the equipment list the weak link (no offense) is maybe the home made speaker wire. Did you use that same wire before you changed the preamp and did it sound good with the old preamp? With regard to getting a specific type of tube that’s just personal preference. You may love a certain 6922 and I may not like that same tube so no one can tell you what tube to get, they can tell you what they like but you have listen to determine which tube you prefer. Trust your ears. The first thing I would do is replace what may just be a bad tube. If you put in a new tube you will be able to tell right away if it’s a bad tube. I would call CJ because the head of the service department just recently bought the company Conrad & Johnson. I would buy one of their replacement tubes, it won’t be expensive, if it’s the tube the used when they ship new ET3SE’s it’s probably a descent tube, they’re not going to ship it with lousy sounding tube. That will at least tell you if that’s were the problem is. If that solves the problems you’re hearing, then you can start tube rolling to determine which tubes sound best to your ear. If all that doesn’s Fix the issues there might be something wrong with the preamp and you may need to send it back to CJ for service. I would call CJ first and talk to their service department. Good luck, I hope you get it figured out soon. Scot |
just want to up date you on the conrad Johnson et3, got tired of the sound. didn't want to put all that money in new cords and such. did get a siemens nos tube, all is right in the universe now. these crappy 6922's it comes with are the problem...now it sounds like the cj gear im use to..just wanted to let you know |
oddiofy, im been hearing that, also to get the gold lion. but andy also recommended some others.. noromance, to problem with your observation. the one I use are pure copper from axiom speakers out of Canada. I have a pair of their m100's. I just couldn't at the time get anyone to do tri wires. I called everywhere. so I just brought me some bulk wire, and termination ends, solder, and went at it...they sound great. in a few months," a tube rolling we will go, a tube rolling we will go".. |
I am probably not qualified to say too much on speaker cables as mine are only 24" long with bare wire ends. I used run Romex. Then I tried pretty expensive solid silver ones which sounded worse even after 2 weeks permanently on. In a direct comparison, the Romex sounded better. I also tried it in another rig with the exact same results. Ridiculous, huh? It put me off cables. Anyhow, that was years ago. I’ve moved on and now run a DIY effort. After reading that many upscale cable manufacturers us very pure copper, I tried Neotech solid core 14ga UP-OCC Teflon wire which costs a few bucks per foot. The improvement was dramatic and remains so to this day. Despite Millercarbon's argument to the contrary, I would urge folks with shorter cable runs to give it a shot. It might save you a lot of money. |
Also, my unit had a bad Electro Harmonix 6922 after only a week. Never a problem with the Gold Lion 6922... not cheap but in my experience last longer than most NOS 6922 which are pricey . On the CJ if you get a low hiss it's a bad tube... its like a low rushing noise that can be heard at low to moderate volumes when you mute the source |
Hi I have a c-j Classic 2 SE and love it, but the new line of c-j like the Classics and ET s are tough on tubes . Only two tubes have proven to be rugged AND sound good. They are the Gold Lion 6922 and Reflector 6H23 eb..... I have a JJ 6922 in mine now and I thought it sounded great , but after only a few months it is noisy. |
follow up.... after some months with this amp, it is just now starting to break in. the signature cj sound is starting to come into the amp. the separation, the detail, the sound staging. apparently this is a new amp and the componets and tubes are not broken in yet.....just wanted to let you all know...…. |
millercarbon: thank you for your summary of experience - at least I agree with the first 7 words in your last paragraph. But I wholeheartedly disagree because my speaker cables cost abit less than $14 - run as biwires. And the Lampcord idea was tried with a miserable outcome... I wouldn't/shouldn't disagree that ever system is different - usually a mash of financially achieveable wants, hopes and dreams. I know a fellow who's recently spent ABOUT $550.K on Italian speakers, a complete ( and I mean COMPLETE) system of all one brand components, a turntable that looks like it should be orbiting the earth, a brand new (completely refurbished and custom painted) reel-to-reel, and top of the line speaker cables and interconnects from a custom manufacturer. He's a guy who would NEVER experiment with anything BECAUSE HE SIMPLY ACCEPTS THAT THE PRICE RELATES TO IT ABILITY TO PROVIDE THE BEST. I do not subscribe to that theory in audio: I could spend more but don't. I prefer to prove things before I become a member of blind group-think... |
kennesawjet: did some quick research and since your amp is 500w - 10 gauge is recommended for all speakers in the array. You said you make/made your own speaker cables - did you use stranded or solid core wire? copper, tinned copper or silver? 14, 12 or 10 gauge wire? And did you break in your speaker wire with over 300 hours of continuous play (I usually do 750 hours on any new break-ins, a solid month!). Any of the above could make a major difference in you sound man... |
... and stringgreen: why not do as I do - run and fasten BARE WIRES ... We do so much that goes counter to common sense: why confuse the issue by creating another junction with RCAs or Us? and why coat them in Gold of all materials ( making them into Audio Jewelry!) instead of silver or copper, which are so much more conductive... kennesawjet: Tell you what - let's try an experiment: I'll make you a set of 3 (per side) home-made speaker wires (need to know lengths per side) at either 12 or 14 gauge solid core copper wire (to be determined) with bare ends, twisted. I'll also include 8 short lengths for you to experiment with single wire, using the short length as jumpers... SO - ( in my best Brooklynese) WhaDaYaDink? |
kennsawjet: unless millercarbon has made his own speaker cables out of 14 or 12 gauge solid copper or solid silver wire, twisted - he has no idea how good it can sound. Got to love that, "twisted". In my best Walter White I say, "You got me!" As. If. Not only have I tried DIY speaker cables, I've also built interconnects and power cords. Always based on what seemed really solid advice and top notch methods and materials. All were much better than ordinary lamp cord, patch cords, freebie power cords. None were anywhere near as good as even very inexpensive professionally made products. But by far the greatest most experienced cable maker was a friend of mine who has been making his own for way over 30 years now. Not only has he built pretty much everything you can find on-line, he's even gone so far as to tear down and reverse-engineer and compare his DIY with some truly mega-buck cables. He's got a whole room, impressive work bench, all devoted to DIY cables. Results? I never was impressed, not in the least. Maybe that is why one day he calls me up all excited to PROVE to me he has finally made one just as good as this $4k cable he copied. So identical he cannot hear the difference. So he brings it over. Yes I have told this story before. Should be pinned to the top of every make your own cable thread for all time. So on my system we use one and then the other. The instant his DIY goes in, well you should have seen the look on his face. Poor guy is crushed. In despair he is telling me it really did sound the same... in his system. But in mine? In mine it was so obviously inferior it was painful. Literally painful. You could see the pain on the guys face. He was adamant how great it sounded at home, totally at a loss for words why it was so obviously crap now. Tried pulling some cheap old random cable from my collection, thinking maybe his might at least sound better than what you could buy for $75. But no, even my worst oldest cheapest was light-years better than what he had made. What he had spent hours and a lot of money making. Not to mention decades of his life. To have something that sounded like pure crap. Which even he now had to admit was the case. And oh by the way to those shouting "System matching! System matching!" nope, sorry, but "system matching" is BS invented by people who can't figure out how to make a good cable to save their life. So instead of solutions they sell band aids. The whole theory behind system matching is your system is too much this way, so patch it up with some crap that is too much the other way. Next time you feel like saying, "system matching" try saying, "hiding crap with even more crap." Because this is exactly how you wind up with a system like my friend, one so awful its almost impossible even to use it for comparing. Because it imposes so much of its own sound. When the goal should be a system that has no sound. Which if you keep covering up problems with problems how are you ever gonna get there? That. Will. Never. Happen. Not like I don't have any sympathy. Its not easy sifting through the vast piles of wanna-be wire looking for the rare few that really work. (Although maybe not so hard, if you try Synergistic.) As said before I have put plenty of my own time into trying this stuff. I do not shirk from mods, have done a lot. Almost every piece of gear in my system has been modded in one way or another. I have Active Shield-modded cables, and have modded Active Shielding and other power supplies. Which is how I know which things are worth doing, and which are a waste of time. DIY cables are top of the list, with a bullet, of time and money wasters. Devil's advocate: if you enjoy doing it, do it. Just don't kid yourself or anyone else that you're saving money, or even making anything anywhere near as good as what you could just go and buy for the same or, more likely, a lot less money. |
kennsawjet: unless millercarbon has made his own speaker cables out of 14 or 12 gauge solid copper or solid silver wire, twisted - he has no idea how good it can sound. ALSO: you can tri-wire your speakers - have you tried that? If all else fails: I'll part with, and sell you either my Morrison ELAD (SS) or my Wolze Line Level Preamp (TUBES). |
Try NOS Telefunken E88CC’s . I use both 12AU7’s and 6922’s . I have nos Telefunkens, Seimens , Amperex . Including the CCa’s and Silver plates . The Telefunken E88CC , is the most linear and flat across the spectrum . The Seimens is close and the Amperex is too bright on top . Brent Jesses web site gives a great/ accurate description of tube tone . I have a friend with an older CJ pre that he had professionally restored . He runs a Benchmark amp . I’ve loaned him the above tubes and he chose the Telefunkens too . We both run Morrow Interconnects and speaker cables , so the comparison is easy . We run different power cords and power stations however . For cost I’ve been very pleased with Anti-Cables stuff , but currently run more expensive Morrow items . I’m not pushing any brand of cabling however . But try the NOS Telefunken from a reputable dealer . They are pricy , but absolutely fabulous. And ask about a return policy . Happy Hunting , Mike B. |
I went through the tube rolling phase with my CJ Premier 11a and 14 in my main system and was able to arrive at considerably better sound by doing that. I suggest that you make sure you have no polarity issues and then post your query on a tube board - other owners of your gear can offer specific suggestions on what worked for them. You only have one tube (6922) IIRC so tube rolling won't be too expensive. Take a look at this article - 17 different 6922s assessed. https://www.head-fi.org/threads/6922-tube-review-17-top-6922-6n23p-e88cc-cca-7308-e188cc-tubes.761078/ |
If your pre takes a 6DJ8 / 6922 tube(s) you have limited alternatives. The used tube market for vintage NOS Siemens 6922's, especially Cca and grey plates is like looking for unobtainium. I've been using them for about 15 years, after testing maybe a dozen or more different brands and time periods and simply have no more nor are there any real ones out there. What I have found which seems to be as good, or nearly as good as a Siemens and Halske Grey Plate early 60's Cca is the 75 vintage https://www.ebay.com/itm/6N23P-E88CC-6922-6DJ8-MatchedPAIR-REFLE-TOR-Single-Wire-Silver-Shield-1975-...I have no connection to this person other than I have purchased tubes from her 6 times. Everything arrived very securely packed and was exactly as advertised and they perform exactly as they should. It used to be $99 a pair now it's $219. Siemens and Halske Cca grey plates used to be $40 a tube then they were $400 a pair, now there are no real ones. |
I have your amp and pre-amp. Before getting the ET3SE, I contacted Steve McCormack and he said there should be no issues pairing the two. I use an Amperex 6992 from Andy's Vintage Tubes and have been very happy with the result. As mentioned by others, be sure to account for phase inversion by reversing the positive/negative terminals either at the speaker or amp ends. The sound you describe could be a result of forgetting to do so. |
almarg speak English, my head started hurting, followed by flashbacks of science class.....lol.The point I was making in my previous post was simply that while the impedance situation in the connection between the preamp and the power amp is not ideal, and does not conform to the recommendation stated in the manual for the preamp, I’m pretty certain that it is not what is causing the symptoms you have described. And I expressed agreement with Ralph (Atmasphere) that a tube is the most probable culprit. The reason I went into further detail in that post is that you had referred in your initial post to "the impedance thing that Im just learning." almarg, don’t know a thing about the imped factor. and do you still have that 17ls. or what preamp goes best with the dna 500.... It was another poster who referred to the 17ls, not me. Regards, -- Al |
audioconnection +1 I have an old CJ Classic pre, and always forget to invert phase when shifting it around. I've even written "Invert Phase you Idiot" on a label on the back :-)Hopefully your problem is as simple as that. I have also played with the valves over the years, and agree that they can make a huge difference. Some new manufactured one like the JJs and Electro-Harmonix make the Classic too bright for me. I have ended up with some NOS Mullards that sound just right. With the right valves, my pre is definitely not muddy and dark. Good luck. |
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Did you invert both your speaker wires at the speakers? The ET3 Preamplifier is phase inverting.This is conveniently done by reversing the positive and negative connections to your speakers (be sure to reverse both channels). When the system is in the correct phase, transients will be noticeably cleaner and more sharply defined. - not all recordings are phase correct so listen to several before concluding your investigation of absolute phase. Best JohnnyR |
I purchased some used Bob Carver amps that sounded as you described. Running to Klipsch Cornwall’s. Rolled several sets of tubes. +1 on the new production Gold Lions. I also have Manley tube phono stage. Came with Tungstram 6922 tubes. Didn’t take long before I replaced with Gold Lion tubes. There is a chart on the internet that shows relative gain for bass, mid and highs. Gold Lion tubes where shown to have nearly equal gain in all three ranges. My listening to some of the others shown in addition to the Gold Lions seem to agree with what was reflected in the chart. |
Regarding impedance compatibility, the DNA-500 has a specified input impedance of only 10K, and the manual for the ET3 recommends a minimum load impedance of 20K. Based on some interior photos I found on the web it appears that both the ET3 and the ET3SE utilize 4 uF coupling capacitors at their outputs, so the 20K recommendation presumably applies to the ET3SE as well as to the ET3. However, given that the impedance of a 4 uF capacitor at 20 Hz is 1990 ohms, and given that the output impedance of the preamp at frequencies above the deep bass region is undoubtedly far lower than that (the specified nominal output impedance is 100 ohms), while the resulting mismatch will produce a slight rolloff and a bit of phase shift in the bottom octave, that is unlikely to be the major contributor to the problem. More likely the single tube that is used in the unit (assuming the optional phono stage is not included) is the major culprit, as Ralph (Atmasphere) suggested. And if the optional phono stage is included, given that you are using a line-level source the single tube that is used in the preamp’s line section is what should be focused on. Regards, -- Al |
I make my own speaker cables Oh dear. Sorry to be the one to red pill you, but there are no good DIY cables. Period. Whatever you spend on material will always buy you way better performance in a professionally designed product. Always. No exceptions. Not even close. What you have right now might as well be lamp cord. No offense. It just is. Never heard any exceptions to this. A long time DIY'er one time compared his all-time best in my system. Even he had to admit it was handily trounced by some random thing I pulled out of my old cables drawer. About $75 from Synergistic, something like that. You've got good components. Before doing anything else, get some good wire. |
I think checking the tubes is the first easy thing to consider or just buy some Gold Lion 6922's on eBay. I have a DNA-500, and with my Conrad Johnson 17LS2, the sound is thin at the bottom end; so I went back to my PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium. However, the ET is supposed to have a lower output impedance than the 17LS2 so, hopefully, it will not be a problem for you. I would be interested in how you think the ET sounds with the DNA-500, once you have the clarity/muddiness figured out. Thanks for listening, Dsper |
