I bought a new $300 Audioquest cable about a month ago, hoping to improve the sound of my Cyrus CD transport. It didn't improve the SQ even after a little break-in period. I compared it to another transport system I had and it was quite inferior. So I stopped using the Cyrus but left it plugged in the wall for the month. Lo and behold, I compared the two transports today and there was virtually no difference in sound between the two of them. I’m listening to the Cyrus right now and am thrilled with it. Either it’s my imagination, or the cable broke in while unused! The difference isn’t subtle. Is such a thing possible?
It is far from clear from your writing but it seems to me that what improved was the transport. We just can’t tell. For example, you’re asking if it improved while unused- while at the same time saying it was plugged in. Well, if it was plugged in and turned on then it was not unused. If it was plugged in and turned on then both the cable and the transport were burning in the whole time. So it could be the transport, or the cable, or both.
This is something I have known for a very long time, that was recently confirmed talking with Ted Denney. He said it is dielectrics, the insulation around the wires, that takes a long time to soak and reach equilibrium. That is mainly what is happening with burn-in. This happens at about the same rate whether playing music or just idle. As long as it is on with current running in it, even at a very low level, it is burning in.
Oh fyi, he said about a week of being turned on, 24/7.
I can’t be sure but I believe it was turned off. Unless it was turned on by accident and left on. The transport is a few year’s old. Also I neglected to mention it’s a power cord. ‘Sorry for the incomplete information.
I’ve experienced onset odd/poor sound from cables/tubes/electronics that I received via common carriers which eventually resolved itself.
The tubes attracted dust like a magnet so I supected that they had picked up a static charge from the sorting systems, belt transports and scanners used to distribute the packages.
With the tubes I found that thermally cycling them 2-3 times helped (on for for a usually short listening session, then off, then on for the next one).
Most tubes sounded good after this (no longer dust magnets either), but did improve with 10-50 hours of playing time.
Only noticed the dust (cat fur;-) attraction with tubes, but it may have been taking place with the cables/electronics as well.
Never noticed the dust thing with tubes purchased locally from various thrifts and flea markets (mainly from old tube caddies).
One of the things that is different about power cords vs ICs and speaker cables is there is always voltage present as long as power is supplied whether or not the device is turned on. If the dielectric is the primary thing that burns in, it seems to me it is the capacitive property of the cable that is affected and current shouldn't matter. What say ye?
I agree with Millercarbon's comment about 'burning' in. In my 12 years or so of playing I have always noticed (almost always) that changing gear, cords, interconnects, etc. needs to settle in for several hours if not days to calm or whatever you want to call it. Enjoy!
Connecting to the AC Mains Supply Connect the socket on the AC Power cable to the AC Power inlet d on the rear panel of the CD t. Now connect the cable to a suitable AC power point.
There is no mains power switch on the CD t. To switch off the mains supply to the CD t remove the plug from the wall outlet. For this reason, ensure that the plug is easily accessible when installing the unit
For burning in a power cord it will take for ever if the connected load is a CD transport. It could take many months. It will burn in a lot faster if it is connected to a load like a dehumidifier or refrigerator. ( Make sure the ampacity rating of the cord is equivalent to 14 gauge wire.)
I agree with Millercarbon's comment about 'burning' in. In my 12 years or so of playing I have always noticed (almost always) that changing gear, cords, interconnects, etc. needs to settle in for several hours if not days to calm or whatever you want to call it.
I call it settling in, so as to distinguish it from burning in, warming up, and reaching saturation or equilibrium.
Burning in happens only once, when something is brand new.
Settling in happens every time after something like a cable is disturbed. The more it is bent, twisted, banged around and exposed to temperature extremes the greater the difference and the longer settling in can take. This is why a cable used even for years can sound awful after shipping. Discovered quite by accident when two identical power cords were swapped. Each time the one going in sounded worse than the one coming out- but only for some minutes, after which it sounded the same. In this case settling in took only a few minutes. After shipping it could be hours.
Warming up happens every time after something is turned off. How long it takes to warm up is totally arbitrary, because it is pretty much open-ended. The longer it is left on and running the closer it gets to saturation or equilibrium, the point at which it is pretty much done changing.
The reason for "pretty much" is this phase lasts for hours, long enough for sound quality changes to start being affected by AC power and other daily noise cycles.
Not that everyone will hear or notice all this. But to the extent you are at least aware this is what is going on this awareness greatly improves your odds of being able to hear it when you come across it.
What does the switch control? AC Mains power? Or maybe electronics power?
Age of unit?
I have an old ARCAM ALPHA 9 CDP made in the late 1990s. It has a push button on the front panel too. It doesn’t control the AC mains power to the power transformer of the CDP or possibly the DC power supply.
The ARCAM has an oversized power transformer located at the rear right hand side of the unit. The top metal cover above the transformer runs warm to the touch whether the push button is in the on or off position. There is no doubt the power transformer is energized when the power cord is plugged into the wall outlet. .
The capacity of Humans for self-deception is apparently unlimited - Mr.Spock the Vulcan Imagination is a wonderful thing!
Quoting a fictional character from Star Trek is, er, an imaginative move. And are you really "Jason Bourne" the action hero or is that just more of your imagination?
But I digress. These and other playground-style putdowns are not the best argument or even arguments at all. Snarky disputation doesn’t cut it on a forum where people are giving and asking for reasons.
Besides the experienced members here on Audiogon, let’s take as Exhibit B the hifi podcast from Darren Myers and Duncan from The Music Room. There, they discuss burn in, settling in, etc, in multiple episodes. These guys have been in audio their whole lives. They work with equipment every day, of many kinds, they tweak and listen to their systems constantly. They have the time, energy, acuity, and resources to keep variables stable and to compare their findings with other listeners.
On the one hand, we have two guys with experience, critical listening and skepticism as part of their job, along with engineering chops, and they hear effects such as burn in, break in, settling, isolation, etc.
On the other hand, there are snarky put downs. Um, who wins that "debate"? That’s pretty easy.
Not only do I take them at their word, for all the reasons above, I take the members here at their word about their critical experiences. The alternative would be that everyone is deluded, everyone is beholden to a kind of audio gambler’s fantasy. That, instead, is the delusion -- that everyone else is deluded.
One of the things that is different about power cords vs ICs and speaker
cables is there is always voltage present as long as power is supplied
whether or not the device is turned on. If the dielectric is the primary
thing that burns in, it seems to me it is the capacitive property of
the cable that is affected and current shouldn't matter. What say ye?
It is considered that some of the long time period it takes for some particular cables to burn in is the 'burn in' of Teflon dielectrics.
Some cables might be 100 hrs and some might be 500 hrs. the 500hr burn in ones , when looked at closely, tend to show up as having Teflon dielectrics involved in their construction.
This is where cable heaters will generally try to deconstruct or shut down any potential avenue for this to be assessed, or discussed at all.. via trying to find a single cable that calls for a long 'burn in period' where that single example has no Teflon (from their reading) involved... and then bring that up as some sort of black & white simple man's, blinkered in origin - occam's dragon slayer. Please. Stop. Just stop.
There are some good discussions about Teflon dielectrics in these cable scenarios, but one will have to search around for it.
It is considered that some of the long time period it takes for some
particular cables to burn in is the 'burn in' of Teflon dielectrics.
Some
cables might be 100 hrs and some might be 500 hrs. the 500hr burn in
ones , when looked at closely, tend to show up as having Teflon
dielectrics involved in their construction.
@ teo_audio
And why is that?
Because the signal energy actually travels down the conductors in the spaces between the wires through the dielectric. .
I guess with “dumb luck” I burned in my PC just by leaving it plugged into the wall for a month. The difference in every parameter of sound is just amazing. (JB to the contrary.)
I have a similar experience with my Chord Qutest DAC. I run it (using my computer as transport) for about 200 hours. It was connected to computer through USB to SPDIF adapter, because I use DAC with CD transport connected by SPDIF in my system. So, after this 200 hours break in period Qutest DAC sounded OK but with some drawbacks. During next month I listened it a few hours, but it was always plugged in. And when after this month I did a critical listening again I was shocked how sound had be changed! All drawbacks I had listened before were disappeared!
@jea48 - That you were able to even hint at things, such as wave-particle duality, dielectric permittivity and a, "conductor" actually being a wave-guide, without being assailed (thus far) by the resident pseudoscientists, is fascinating. KUDOS!
One of the things that is different about power cords vs ICs and speaker
cables is there is always voltage present as long as power is supplied
whether or not the device is turned on. If the dielectric is the primary
thing that burns in, it seems to me it is the capacitive property of
the cable that is affected and current shouldn't matter. What say ye?
I say ye R OTL. A medieval term invented by the Duke of Sandwich meaning "out to lunch": not all there.
Voltage is a differential. It is in other words measured between two things. Across a circuit. Without which (a complete circuit) there is no voltage, no amperage, no capacitance, no nothing. (Try buying a meter that can read voltage, resistance, capacitance, inductance- you name it - without being connected to anything.)
Yet another way to think of it, your imaginary voltage, which of the conductors is it "on"? A 120V circuit (there's that word again!) consists of one black "hot" wire and one white neutral wire. Normally voltage is measured across the black and white. But there is in principle no reason it cannot be measured across black and ground. Same 120V either way. But what about white/neutral to ground? Where is your 120V? Not there! So where is the voltage? Not there.
MC, the parasitics complete the circuit. There are effectively small distributed capacitors along the length of the cable from line to neutral, line to ground, and neutral to ground. For a 2m power cable I would guess these would be in the neighborhood of hundreds of pfs.
My serious question still is as long as the cable is plugged in to AC, and these parasitic capacitors (caused by the insulating material as well as the cable geometry) are being charged and discharged why would the component need to be turned on in order to break in the cable? This is assuming the dielectric is the primary reason for the break in.
If a large current is required is required to break in a power cable it suggests a more complex reason for break in, perhaps one involving the metallurgy of the wire.
Many components cannot be turned off; the off switch merely puts it in standby mode. As long as the PC is plugged into a live wall socket and the device, there will be current flowing. Hence, it will burn in even with the CD player “turned off”.
In addition, if the PC has capacitance across the individual conductors, the cable will be able to achieve some break in even without it being plugged into a component. It only needs be plugged into a live outlet. Most PCs do have capacitance across its conductors.
Off is off. No current when off. Zero. None. Nada. Zip. It is the very definition of OFF. Off in other words means off.
Now if you want to redefine off as some lesser but still non-zero amount of current is flowing through a closed- not open, closed- circuit, well then you can call it "parasitical" or "not on" but you cannot call it "off" as otherwise you have so destroyed the meaning of the word it loses all utility.
Use your words. Don't suck the life out of them. Don't be a parasite.
"Normally voltage is measured across the black and white. But there is in principle no reason it cannot be measured across black and ground. Same 120V either way. But what about white/neutral to ground? Where is your 120V? Not there! So where is the voltage? Not there" Because they're both attached to the same neutral bus bar, in the breaker box (zero voltage potential). ie: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/hsehld.html
Voltage is a differential. It is in other words measured between two things. Across a circuit. Without which (a complete circuit) there is no voltage, no amperage, no capacitance, no nothing. (Try buying a meter that can read voltage, resistance, capacitance, inductance- you name it - without being connected to anything.)
You don’t need a closed circuit to have a difference of potential, voltage. If you connect a pair of wires to a source at the end or anywhere along the pair of wires the difference of potential exists.
Install a switch in series with one of the lines. When the switch is open the difference of potential will be broken, opened, only on the load side of the switch. Ahead of the switch the potential is not affected. The potential still exists.
The Cyrus CD transport Power supply is connected directly to the AC mains. Not switched. The switch on the face of Cyrus CD transport is down stream of the power supply. The switch does not kill power to the power supply.
Plugging a regular power cord into a wall outlet with nothing (no load) connected to it will do nothing for burn-in of the cable. Does a difference of potential exist at the IEC connector if the wall outlet is live? Yes. But without a connected load there is not a current. No energy is being consumed. .
No, that isn't why it works. And it doesn't measure voltage, but merely detects it. No offense but mainly what I detect is word games. Someone says something and whether totally correct or incorrect means nothing but an opportunity to interject.
Yes. Though the no contact voltage tester actually is measuring the electric field around the Hot Ungrounded conductor. The tester works on capacitance. When you hold the tester in your hand your body is ground. You can be totally insulated from an EGC, (Equipment Grounded), object and the tester will still work.
"When you hold the tester in your hand your body is ground." Been using those for decades and always believed that was the case. Thanks for the confirmation/insight/link (filling in the blanks)!
Yay! So there is a circuit. Like I said. Only for some reason me saying it triggers terminal butt-hurt, the cry-bully has the post removed. I try to not get in his head, but somehow keep getting sucked in. Must be the vacuum?
"When you hold the tester in your hand your body is ground." Been using those for decades and always believed that was the case. Thanks for the confirmation/insight/link (filling in the blanks)!
I would never use it to verify the circuit is de-energized if you are going to work on the circuit.
FWIW, the no contact voltage tester isn’t really connected between the hot and neutral or EGC, or any reference grounded object, of the circuit. There is not an actual connection from the source Hot wire and a return through the human body back to the source. Without a closed circuit path how could there possibly be an electric charge flow, current. .
It is possible because you let it plugged in for a month and that runs current through the gear and the wires so you were doing a slow burn in you just did not realize it and all or the better because it sounds like you are happy with the outcome.
@jea48 - " I would never use it to verify the circuit is de-energized if you are going to work on the circuit."
Never have. Always figured: that's what my Fluke DMM was for. My first DMM was an 8020B, if you remember those. Bought that for my speaker/electronics shoppe, in the early Eighties.
Most of what I've done in electrical (on and off/here and there/during a hard times) was industrial, 480-600V, Three Phase, in industrial machine (wire pulling) and plating environment (a fall-back, for me). Lots of electronics, in the control systems, too (my primary forte).
Of course: If you've ever been around industrial plating equipment, you know about those rather large, 5mW, SCR Rectifiers.
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