Can an IC based amp be considered 'high end'?

most IC-based stuff can be improved by putting a Burson op amp replacement

I've seen those before, occasionally they give away free samples on diyaudio. If you want to improve your equipment by swapping out op amps you really need to understand the role they're performing in the circuit, there are places I'd use a FET input op amp (like the Burson V5) and there are places where I'd use a BJT (there are even places for CMOS)... I can think of at least one example where swapping an op amp for the Bursons wreck the whole design. The datasheet for the Burson V5 is pretty short on information and will compare well with old op amps but falls a long way short of the best modern ICs. Maybe I'll pick up some samples next time they offer them and do some proper testing and listening.

     On my Phase linear 400, my shrill Crown IC 150 was no match for the bland pre-amp in my Advent receiver, but that was long ago.  I did just audition some Rotel Stuff on new B&W 804's.  I hope it is IC based, because otherwise there is no excuse for its existence.  Even the salesman finally admitted it would not be suitable for lengthy listening sessions.
     I really thought that for $5000, an integrated amp and CD player should be at least tolerable.  
 

Back in 04-05 I had a GainCard. It was too lite for heavy power cords. It sounded much better with double Humpty's
Shortly thereafter I switched to 100% XLR system, which IMO is where hi-end starts

No matter what you consider high end, most IC-based stuff can be improved by putting a Burson op amp replacement (made of discrete parts) in it.  The amount of improvement depends on what chip was there in the first place but I haven't found any op amps, even the very best ones, that can match a Burson.  (Of course it's easier to do this if the amp has sockets for the IC's, but quite a few do.) 

Thanks for all the responses... I guess 'high end' is a pretty subjective term. It's nice to see that most are open minded about the technology used and not put off by the use of ICs. The LM3886 is a good sounding amp with a competent implementation of the datasheet circuit, it is possible to get even better performance with more advanced designs as well.

A good friend of mine years ago was Marcof headamps, cartridges, cables, amps etc. 
He build an amp from STK086 mono amp chips. He did his own circuit design, made and etched his own boards etc. He has a excellent parts on the boards as well as a monster power supply. Other than deepest bass,  I would put this amp up against most out there.  Of course it wouldn't be everyone's cup of tea,  someone always likes something else better,  but no one would deny that it is easily an audiophile product.  

https://www.ebay.com/itm/LM3886-Fully-Balanced-Power-Amplifier-Board-120W-120W-HiFi-Stereo-2-channel/162735526386?_trkparms=aid%3D555018%26algo%3DPL.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20131003132420%26meid%3D2203a910203044eaaac6d75d6e3f86f7%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D12%26mehot%3Dlo%26sd%3D312339841155%26itm%3D162735526386%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

Can an IC based amp be considered 'high end'

Build your own, get a ready made power supply, the "chip amp" put it into a Asian box with heat sinks with 2 rca's and 2 pairs of speaker terminals and see how it sounds.
For the best chip amp go to diy audio, they are the ones who are up to date.
Then after you've built it you can sell it on ebay because they are not hiend "yet"

Cheers George 

as for  LM3886  the specs  are quite dissent... but still 50 watt output . with recommended applications    Component stereo • Compact stereo • Self-powered speakers • Surround-sound amplifiers • High-end stereo TVs

Hi End - No.  Needs a big 20 lb aluminum face plate.

Hi Fidelity - Possibly. :)

I own both Atma-sphere M60s and an Audiosector Patek, and right now I wouldn't give up either because they're the best sounding tube and SS amps I've heard. That said, they sound totally different, but both are clearly "high end". Two completely different approaches to design something that sounds great.

Both Ralph's and Peter's intent was spot on.

there are technical limitations of audio output ics.
1.low wattage .... up to 40-50 watt
2. high THD ....10% 
10% THD is ok for low end consumer electronics like sound from FM stereo  or TV set, but not HIFI units

The question is what is high end?

It can't be a certain level of performance. First because there is no one performance standard by which to make the cut. But also because even if we did have a solid agreed standard we'd still have to argue over where to draw the line. 

It can't be price. We all know really high end gear that is very affordable, including a lot that is better than much more expensive gear. 

But it can't be design, or technology, or parts or materials either. 

But especially, it can't be mass-marketed and based on a price point. Oh, it can be mass-marketed. And even to a price point. But only if somewhere in there it is apparent that sound quality is a driving factor. 
In other words, what atmasphere said: intent. 

It sounds silly but its true. Intending to make it high end is what makes it high end.

The audiophile world has had the idea that discrete designs are better for a long time.  If it was ever true, it isn’t now.

Going back to the early 90's IC amps had a pretty bad rep for SQ. Then National brought out the LM3886 which contributed significantly to IC amps becoming 'respectable'. So I think given the correct implementation, IC based amps can be 'high end'. Just implemented according to the datasheet application schematic though, I would doubt it, as 'high-end' sound requires attention to many small details in the layout (amongst other things).

I have one of these and sounds pretty darn good.   Might pass as high end in a blind listening test  but not much to look at. 
https://www.amazon.com/Bluetooth-Audio-Amplifier-Receiver-Integrated/dp/B076XSBCCL/ref=mp_s_a_1_7?ke...

Sure if you charge enough for it. 

So, do you go for 'high end' or do you favour some of those criteria over others?

I'm a manufacturer. So my criteria might be a bit different, but I'm also an audiophile. We all like to think we're getting good quality and we try to search for it; that is certainly what I do. I don't like getting something and finding out its so much junk... Most of the gear I own I've also auditioned in some form before purchase. In your case that will be your first move if you get serious about this amp.

All audiophiles know that no matter what the spec sheet says, what the dealer says, what the reviewer says, you have to bring it home and audition it. Even people that rely on specs only do that :) Irony is still in.

@atmasphere Thanks for the considered response. So, do you go for 'high end' or do you favour some of those criteria over others?

That’s an interesting view, I take that to mean an uncompromising focus on audio quality - is that what you mean?

I remember when I first got asked that question about 35 years ago. I had to think about it. I know it isn’t price! There are things that are expensive that are not high end and there are things that are cheap that are. So price isn’t it.

Sound quality is a better indicator, but it too isn’t the last word. One problem here is sound quality is highly subjective. Some people don’t care what it sounds like if it doesn’t measure well. So that doesn’t work either.

Appearance - ? Things can wind up being valuable due to their appearance but that doesn’t make them ’high end’! A good example of that is the Clairtone console stereo.


If the intention of the manufacturer is to be high end (as opposed to being expensive; these are two very different goals!) that ultimately is the final arbiter. This does not mean that the unit is great sounding but it does mean that it was **meant** to be great sounding.


So a chip amp can be built to a profitable product and/or it can be built with the intention to be high end. Its usually pretty easy to discern which is which.

Opposing perspectives here

@beetlemania - Thanks for the link that's a really interesting article.

 the **intention** is what makes it high end

@atmasphere  - That's an interesting view, I take that to mean an uncompromising focus on audio quality - is that what you mean?

@atdavid - Hah, that's exactly what I was getting at... would the stigma over the use of ICs be enough to put a serious audiophile off of listening to one, or admitting to liking one?

Design a high qualify amplifier based around an IC amp ... good power supply decoupling, quality components, etc. Build a high quality amplifier PCB based on said design. Encase most of the circuity in epoxy potting compound to hide what is in there. Put that in a fancy machined aluminum case. Market it as proprietary amplifier design and high end.

Pretty much a given that some audio reviewer(s) will swoon over it.

Opposing perspectives here

@pragmasi  Tubes, discrete or ICs, the **intention** is what makes it high end. So yes, an IC-based amplifier can be high end, just the way that tube amps can be entry level and vice versa. Intention has everything to do with it.

pragmasi

Amplifiers based on integrated circuits (chips) rather than discrete transistors.

Either of those are solid state technologies.

pragmasi

Most, if not all amplifiers that are regarded as 'high end' are either valve or solid state designs.

What else is there?

@teo_audio, thanks, that's interesting and the reviews seem to take it seriously. I guess I wondered whether knowing an amp was based upon an IC would put audiophiles off listening to it at all.

Check out the chip amps of Peter Daniels.

Not yet.

Cheers George