Cables that measure the same but (seem?) to sound different
I have been having an extended dialogue with a certain objectivist who continues to insist to me that if two wires measure the same, in a stable acoustic environment, they must sound the same.
In response, I have told him that while I am not an engineer or in audio, I have heard differences in wires while keeping the acoustic environment static. I have told him that Robert Harley, podcasters, YouTuber's such as Tarun, Duncan Hunter and Darren Myers, Hans Beekhuyzen, Paul McGowan have all testified to extensive listening experiments where differences were palpable. My interlocutor has said that either it is the placebo effect, they're shilling for gear or clicks, or they're just deluded.
I've also pointed out that to understand listening experience, we need more than a few measurement; we also need to understand the physiology and psychological of perceptual experience, as well as the interpretation involved. Until those elements are well understood, we cannot even know what, exactly, to measure for. I've also pointed out that for this many people to be shills or delusionaries is a remote chance at best.
QUESTION: Who would you name as among the most learned people in audio, psychoacoustics, engineering, and psychology who argue for the real differences made by interconnects, etc.?
I won’t say there can’t be an audible difference, who knows there still are paramaters in play we didn’t measure (correctly).
There also is this thing though that our ears fool us. Or actually it’s not our ears, they merely are the sensors, the transducers ... the real hearing takes place in our brain. And our brain fools us, greatly. For one, it fills in the gaps, our hearing is trained on how songs and music usually ought to sound, just like we can read a sentence where all vowels are left out prfectly well (w cn rd a sntnc whr ll th vwls r lft t prfctl wll). Our ’hearing’ is also greatly influenced by visuals, and by expectations. Google for the McGurk effect.
So ... yes ... when you just shelled out $4000 for new speaker cables, that look thick and fancy and that have nice gold plated connectors on them (I never use connectors, the less interconnects the better), you WILL here a difference ... just because you just told your brain there SHOULD be a difference.
And of course, if the first listening was a bit disappointing, you now hear a difference after some hours of ’running in’. Because the experts told you they sound better after ’running in’, your brain now expects a difference. Who knows what exactly happens with the molecules and atoms during running in? The interesting notice is statistically there’s a 50% chance they sound worse ... but no, they always sound better!
And of course they again sound better after you placed your cables on the $400 floor spacers to avoid cable vibrations. Ever thought of using $2 kitchen sponges for that?
It all becomes much more difficult with a blind A/B test.
Check out the forum thread on "Audio Engineering Society and cables" from June. There is discussion of peer-reviewed, published research demonstrating that cables that have an identical frequency response can still sound different and can be perceived as sounding significantly different under blinded listening conditions - even by untrained listeners.
“if two wires measure the same, in a stable acoustic environment, they must sound the same.”
I do not have an answer to OP’s specific question about which specific “learned people” in the field may have opinions about interconnects and wires.
I would like to broaden the discussion a bit to include some additional thoughts about measurements, tests and the equipment and persons that determine whether or not differences are heard.
OP does not specify what is being measured, how it is measured, what tools are used to capture the measurement or what the conditions for the test are. We have precious little to go on for a discussion. Assume the stated stable acoustic environment and several devices under test. We need calibrated test equipment. Both electronic and human. Obtaining calibrated test electronics and software is relatively simple. Choose a test microphone and associated acoustic test software and interface. Calibrating a human to be a test instrument comes with many unknowns and variables. Perhaps a possible test of human hearing acuity and accuracy vs electronic test equipment would be in order. Play back whatever test signals and program material desired. Have the listener evaluate and note their impressions. Capture measurements with the test equipment at the same time. Alter the test signals and program material in a known way. Repeat the playback and capture measurements and the human impressions of the test signals and program material. Continue this for many variations of the test signals and program material. Alterations in the signals can be anything, overall level, frequency response, distortions, latency changes between different frequency bands, pick your alteration and test it.
This testing regimen will allow easy evaluation of both the electronic test equipments accuracy and a humans ability to evaluate changes. It would be interesting to see what if any differences there are between the electronic tests and a humans impression of the test signals and program material original test and the altered signal tests.
Once we have a very good understanding of how electronic test equipment and human evaluations of tests correlate only then should we move on to actually testing those different wires and interconnects.
Exactomundo 😎 I just finished rereading Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds. This is not to say that people who like particular cable more than another or deluded.
If you believe in science(and I do) then if two items measure the same, they are the same. But that assumes you have measured everything that matters. And you don't know if some factor is missing from your measurements until you discover all the measurements. We usually discover new measurements when our observations are no longer predictable by our current measurements.
I hesitate to wander into this treacherous country again but here goes. Measurements, e.g., resistance, inductance, capacitance, are, these days, easily made , recorded and compared but are gross and crude compared to the kinds of phenomena which may be discerned by the human ear and brain such as, say, timbre. The simple measurements aren’t going to help us predict how a device (cable) will contribute to SQ. So the only practical way I can think of in measuring the higher phenomena for comparison purposes is to recruit panels of experienced observers (listeners/audiophiles). Ideally, if possible, observers would be blind and a placebo control could be utilized if a certain device (cheap cable?) could be agreed upon as the placebo type. Hasn’t this kind of evaluation been done before in audio?
What I find interesting in your post, if I am understanding you correctly, is that you acknowledge that things that measure the same would sound the same to a calibrated robot, but not to humans because we are not calibrated. It seems that what you're saying is that things that measure the same don't necessarily sound the same because of external forces that apply to humans. There's a big difference between thing sounding the same and humans not being able to hear them consistently. Our inability to hear things the same doesn't means that the sound coming out of the speakers isn't the same. Room acoustics are very dynamic and shifting the position of your ears will result in a different listening experience, so you'd have to be able to consistently differentiate between the expected differences in listening experiences from the unavoidable forces and what might be there from whatever physical change was made to the system.
I'm almost certain that I've heard Paul from PS Audio say that he's heard differences in speaker wires that were clear, but not in interconnects. I find this statement quite curious as their website includes "Paul's Picks" that include increasingly expensive interconnects to match the price point of the gear in the package. What criteria did he use to pick them? The most likely scenario is that they are just using his name.
I think that it's entirely possible that things like cables and such can make a difference in a system of high enough quality, but I've not personally had the opportunity to be convinced.
We measure what we measure. When we don't measure or at least account for the difference in what many people hear, does that make a difference? You look at an apple, quantum physics says there is more than just an apple.. What we see is not what is really there.
Measured sound is as limited as what we measure for..
We are as limited as the information we have access to. Just because it isn't measured doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Limited information is just that... Limited..
I'll never forget the first time I heard aluminum with copper clad and plastic vinyl (something) ICs, speaker cables and power cables. It was in a car and the guy paid 4k or something.. Man was it loud.
I change one speaker cable from one amp to copper and one RCA to copper on the left side, just like I always do..
Someone removed the BLANKET from the way they were, to the way they are. HUGE cables ALL worthless.. The installer with his messed up hearing could hear a big change in just one side.. The cost of copper was actually LESS. I recommended SOOW 99.999 OFC 4/4 for power and 4/12 for speaker cables.. 50.00 max.. RCAs Good copper or silver clad weaves now.. less than 40.00 each.
It’s up to you to stand up for the facts: Different cables measure differently. People unwilling to pay for better cables, prey upon those that will allow themselves to bullied by misrepresenting the facts, to cover up the fact that they are poor cheapskates or skinflints. It’s not that they’re feeling great about "their knowledge" on the subject, they’re trying to cover up their knowledge at your expense and using "the best defense is a good offense" method of intellectual dishonesty (that’s taught in cults like Scientology). Keep allowing them to shove their BS your way and you’ll soon be asking others to join you for a bite, or at least drop by the little safe place you made on the Internet to discuss it.
There are obviously, at least, 2 diverse opinions here, and various attempts at subjective and objective evidence. On the one hand people 'say' they can hear differences but most often when tested this appears not to be the case. Expert listeners rarely do better than chance in double blind tests. On the other hand we have an assumption that if two things when tested measure the same they must sound the same, this assumes that the test or tests actually measures everything we can hear. Is this true, for instance if I blind test soup with a thermometer then both tomato and chicken can measure the same however they sure as hell won't taste the same.
Define: "measures the same." Cables don’t measure the same. That is not the argument. The argument is that you can’t hear the differences. That’s Gene’s argument at Audiochokerholics and they are the leading BS artists in the debunking game.
Why would I want to listen to somebody else for something I can listen and hear for myself so I can make a decision on a cable I like better? I wouldn’t, and I don’t. As for measurements for cables, what a waste of time. Do you go to a Porsche dealer looking for a car that is multiple times the price of a cable, with a compression tester or dynamometer? Do you think a 400hp Porsche is going to drive the same as a 400hp Toyota? Hell no. There is almost always going to be a difference in sound of a cable, not necessarily a better sound, but only you can decide that
@denverfred "Maybe best to look outside the usual fields of study on this question."
Exactly my thinking.
@kijanki "How do you measure quality of interconnects shielding? When you hear a difference between cables it means they must be different (measure different, different construction etc.)
Great question and as for "measure different" that's true, if we know what to measure *for.* Which artemus was getting at, too.
Good start to this thread. Hoping Ralph/atmasphere chimes in.
I believe Galen Gareis at Belden Cable has done extensive research and testing and the conclusion was that they can measure exactly the same but sound different. There are white papers and a looong video put out by the folks of Intellectual Peoples Podcast if anyone cared to read or watch for themselves.
Maybe best to look outside the usual fields of study on this question. While very valuable research is being done by some of the righteous electricians--work essential to the design and engineering process--efforts to quantify aesthetics fail repeatedly to explain what we hear. It often seems as though we Dionysians are considered insane or at least delusional by Apollonian standards. Here’s a good idea starter:
"When cognitive scientists try to understand why people develop delusions, they . . . have focused on this notion of epistemic irrationality, underlining that delusions arise from faulty reasoning processes."—Anna Greenburgh is a PhD student at University College London. Her research investigates social cognition in psychosis and across the paranoia spectrum. PSYCHE 19 AUGUST 2020 So who has the faulty reasoning process? The listener, in the moment? Or the scientist, totally isolated from the musical moment?
I'm not sure you can find two cables that measure the same. Impedance of the cable will change with frequency. It is also very difficult to measure capacitance or inductance since it is "distributed" inductance and capacitance - one affects another. It can be done by measurements at different frequencies and calculations, but it might be not very accurate. Even such simple thing as DC resistance will change with temperature increase (with current). Metal and construction of the cable make a difference.
After that you have other effects, like dielectric absorption or skin effect (that starts at gage 18 for copper at 20kHz). 12 gauge wire uses only 75% of it size at 20kHz (Belden data).
In addition construction of the cable is important. Even speaker cable is electrical noise entry into amplifier. Twisting of the wire, including twist pitch plays a role. How do you measure quality of interconnects shielding?
Of course, one can say "It measures close enough" or "it should not matter", but it is only an opinion and not a proof. IMHO, the only sure way to find two cables that measure exactly the same and have exactly the same noise rejection is to buy the same cable twice.
When you hear a difference between cables it means they must be different (measure different, different construction etc.) The only other possibility is placebo effect, but there is nothing wrong with it, as long as it works :)
I would not dare to tell other people what they can or cannot hear, especially when my hearing is not getting any better with age.
extended dialogue with a certain objectivist who continues to insist to me that if two wires measure the same, in a stable acoustic environment, they must sound the same.
There is a large faction of todays people who are totally clueless about man's human nature. It shows itself in society & the way these people come to irrational conclusions.
I would agree with the statement "if two wires measure the same, in a stable acoustic environment, they must sound the same." But ONLY to a MACHINE which is CALIBRATED the SAME.
People are NOT machines! We are not all Calibrated the same.
Nor are we calibrated the same everyday due to emotional forces and other stimuli Then also, the question arises as to what scientific proof he used to come to his conclusion that equal measurements mean the same sound?
I have to agree if they measure the same they probably sound the same. How many of the people you mentioned have done properly conducted listening tests which is one way to reinforce their position?
QUESTION: Who would you name as among the most learned people in audio, psychoacoustics, engineering, and psychology who argue for the real differences made by interconnects, etc.?
I would say James Johnston but he says the opposite.
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