Have any of you come across a burned out hi fi salesman? I was at my local dealer the other day and was talking to one of the sales guys. In my opinion he is damaged goods! According to him he has had all the equipment at different times one could imagine. He said that he came to the conclusion that all hi fi components are within 5 % of each other in terms of sound (All things being equal). The fact that he currently does not even OWN a stereo is not a good sign! How can you relate to your customers if you're not even into hi fi yourself? I would advise anyone to ask the sales person they are dealing with questions about his or her preference with repects to the equipment they themselves own. As I say, the gentleman I talked to was non caring, un-involved, bitter, etc... Don't make hi fi choices beased on the "Expert"advise of an individual such as this. The lesson for me? Ask questions about your sales person first........then ask about the various equipment! You'll have fun and make better choices! Cheers,
"i have a dealer near me who i like very much & after ive made my mind up on what i want i give him first dib's on making a sale,i tell him what i can get it for & ask for his price,if his price is close enough for me i buy it & if not im out the door with no hard feeling's."
If you never hear the product how do you know what you want? And once the sometimes extensive process of informing you on what you need, the store is then rewarded by you shopping around to dealers who have done zero to help you except take a phone call and lower the price. Then tomorrow lower the quality of help and selection available to you. Brilliant
Where I have my business I love it because despite my devils advocate position here I am very helpful and thrive because all the other dealers in my area are as those who are generally grumbling about the stores say. But they weren't always that way. Since the home theater purchaser spends more and is an easier sale and allows for reasonable margins dealers are catering directly to them. Hopefully your getting the economic picture of audiophiles viability.
"you said audiophile's should stop worring about saving money & reward good service & stop being selfish all the time,what a stupid & self serving thing to say"
Bigjoe, I don't rely on high end audio clients to survive or even prosper, that would be stupid. I'm telling you what I know from the inside out. I've worked many places where audiophiles are no longer welcomed and as policy actively discouraged to "hang out". For some of the reasons listed in my two posts above.
Finally HenryHK,
Audiophiles do not recognize the incredible effort it takes to appease them, that's why in-Home dealers are desirable by most because they have limited product setup in a stabile environment. Demoing for an audiophile with a good system in a store setting is very, very difficult.
You do not seem to recognize the incredibly limited market represented by audiophiles and lets not forget that if the street was working in balance the hifi store would be a great source of free entertainment. But for the most part that two way street is in disarray and not by any one individuals action or attitude but more out of neccessity and economics.
In closing;
The diversity represented here in system sound=
more manufacturers---lower volume----higher prices----more retail outlets with less volume----lower margins----lower quality of personnel----lowered experience and services.
the hi end business has become as much about 'sight' and 'touch' as 'sound'. and there is the 'cool' factor of source. we try to say its not, but it is. its true with every component in the chain. a smart retailer will always put the comfy chairs in the expensive room. piano and female voice-cd..........guitar and male voice-lp.....no beatles, no stones.....
At a time, I was a frequent visitor to Salon 1 Audio. Thank to you and John (and Roger later), it was always a very pleasureable trip for me. However, I never knew how you felt. Yes, Wisconsin Rapids was in the middle of nowhere. But so is Willmar, MN where I live now. I purchased most of my equipment from Bruce and I am still keeping my Lectron, Klyne, Oracle... However, when it was time to replace speakers (Response 2 with 3.8), I gave up on Bruce.
catch the same salesman after the holidays,maybe working long hours just answering phone calls..maybe he just found out boss is going to stiff him on christmas bonus,and wife left him and he needed to sale his stuff..maybe as a post said after listening to stuff all day, home isnt a option.go back and buy a pair of wilson watt from him he will perk up..retail salespeople have alot of energy ,but after 12.00 there tired of peep asking and not buying.go back in there and tell him your loan was aproved and you want to spend 10,000.00 dollars.a sale will cure burnout fast..i would rather deal with a burned out salesman that knows what he is talking about.than one who dont know or ever will go to best buy and ask questions you know the answer to. thats scary that the normal joe blow gets sold by one of those guys...so next time you run into a salesman cooked, take him out for a beer...i know ive been one for over 25 years.
I think the 5% is totally true, thoug it is just a small number...many search so hard for it that when they hear it it is a HUGE deal....that number is so small but so hard to find and as we listen to many systems and componets, that last 5% can jump right out at you. IMO
I have top agree with most that seem to understand the salesman's point of view. After doing any job for 20 plus years you are going to get burned out. I know that I get tired of my career but it is what I do. I know people that try to leave but most of them come back to the same old career. We do what we do. I am sure that this salesman has seen an evolution of the audio business that would depress most. Imagine you spend hours with a prospect and then he goes home and buys it on the internet. Enthusiasm is fueled by hope and the prospect of success. After a number of years of getting burned that enthusiasm gets glossed over with serious doubt. IMO
A purchase I made recently through a HighEnd web-tailer turned out to be everything BUT service, unless e-service is little more than a word without substance. I went into the purchase because the e-tailer genuinely seemed interested in offering strong service in addition to a good price. The ads are in TAS and Stereophile regularly, so I thought we were hitting a home run. NOT! Just didn't work out that way. Too bad, too.
After at least 25 very successful component purchases through web sites, I finally bumped into a real dud. All efforts to make contact have resulted in AN INDIFFERENT SILENCE.
Cinematic_Systems: Perhaps, but the same can said for all consumer good durables markets. To expect the consumer not to be driven by pricing to a large degree is simply wishful thinking in never never land. For retailer margins: well that's just economics in the end: the audiophile market is basically saying to you that a) its a fragmented industry so competition among retailers are intense, thus leading to lower margins, as consumers have choice and b) the value add provided by such retailers are not high enough to warrant higher margins ON AVG. In the end, its up to the retailing ind to either consolidate or individual retailers to distinguish themselves in a competitive market via providing better service. The example provided above about a burnt out sales person is case in pt.
Rene, my poster boy volunteer for what is wrong with audiophiles, thank you for chiming in...
Your niche interest in niche audio is exactly my point. Who's going to make a living selling that stuff? What the hell are you doing?(based on my opinion) Do you think you can convince me that you have a good sounding system? That when I listen to it it will sound like the artist intended? I think not. I'm sure its magical and musical for you but is it "good sound" or just your sound? Can you be sure i'm going to like it? Am I a heathen neophyte if I don't like it?
Audiophile's lack of focus makes it impossible to design a store around "good sound" because clearly audiophiles don't know or can't agree on what "good sound" is as defined as a stand alone concept. Instead we have , "I know what I like." Let me tell you what a moving target that is.
What do audiophiles mean when they say they know what they like? You shouldn't have a choice, the artist made the CD and that should be that. But it's not is it, have to make that perfectly matched systems that gives us so much pride? Audiophiles are always trying to get their system to do things that will distort one track to flatter another. So what is "good sound" to an audiophile. Can we ever agree so the stores can carry it and the manufacturers make it, or is that the beginning of the end for this industry?
Home Theater buyers get the concept and learn fast, but they never ask for the highs to be more "open". Are the highs supposed to be open on that recording anyway is my question?
To call Home Theater clients uneducated, well is untrue. Fact is most audiophiles like yourself are equally gullible, how hard would it be to mount a $90 Fostex Driver in a box? Well I've already had my runin with the Cain&Cain boys on a DIY forum. People have bought Thiels CS1.6's despite the huge distortion spike in the midrange. What are we doing as a group? Why are we supporting this sort of product? Cause it "sounds good?" Does it really?
----------Rene, so bountiful is your post-------------
" And that although this guy was hanging out at his shop the whole day waiting for customers to come in, with tons of downtime."
Clearly he didn't want to bother to do it for free, can you blame him? Does he owe you something? When's the last time you worked for free Rene? Are you entitled at $3000 for free services, did he have a sign that said so? He made $1200 in profit on your purchase? When you make $1200 a week, do you work for free for your employer...hell no you don't so don't expect anyone else to do it either. Instead you should have bought the $50 in tools necessary to set the system up yourself! And if the system sounded good referred people to him. But instead he didn't do something for free and your willing to overlook that he displayed what you wanted presented it in a way that assured you this was the right move but he's supposed to do that, just like you do the minimum at your job and still get paid retail.
Back to my point......
The diversity presented by audiophiles is killing the hobby, the magazines won't call a spade a spade and people buy on reviews and infact post here as their hard won experience/opinion based on reviews. This forum is all about people getting along while giving "wrong" advice(see any of my HT threads). Fact is we don't hear all that differently from one another (despite the BS perpetuated by those who would perp wrongness), no instead we all have different goals for why we have a system. Until we can focus as a group this will get worse.
I can't note every facet of my argument but think about what I wrote, how permissive are we and PC to have allowed the acceptance of such a diverse sound as good sound? There seems to be no standards When a violin simply sounds like a violin.
ive alway's said that hifi is a hobby to us & business for dealer's.
Cinematic systems.
what are audiophile's at fault for,bad service & a poor attitude or snide comment's from owner's/salesmen,yep that'll fix them pesky customer's every time,i agree with your comment's about audiophile's being wishy washy but that has nothing to do with quality service.
you said audiophile's should stop worring about saving money & reward good service & stop being selfish all the time,what a stupid & self serving thing to say,stop trying to save money ! i wonder if you lead your life outside of audio that way rewarding good service as oposed to looking for the best price on home's,car's,furniture, ect.
IMO the veiw's you expressed in your post are exactly what's wrong in hifi with dealer's thinking we owe them a great life,if i walk into a show room & i'm treated with the slightest bit of disrespect or indifference i'm outta there never to return but if i'm treated like a valued customer then i'll look at what the dealer has to offer then it's up to him to sell me something.
i have a dealer near me who i like very much & after ive made my mind up on what i want i give him first dib's on making a sale,i tell him what i can get it for & ask for his price,if his price is close enough for me i buy it & if not im out the door with no hard feeling's.
the way i see it is that the dealer's who use the web to benifit their business are gracious & helpfull while the old school dealer's who refuse to jump onboard just keep getting angry & bitter,dont blame the customers blame the dealer's for not changing with the time's!
That 5% is 99% of the emotional satisfaction you get when listening to a system that can produce that 5%, even 1%. It does'nt take much to put the music over the top and make that emotion come out. just my 2 cents.
Oh CS, Before I became a Audiogon Buyer and purchased my Valve amps I purchased all of my Audio equipment at Retail locations. I wish that Some Salesperson would of Recommended Tubes to me before. I feel I missed out for the last 10 years.
When I went to a local Retail Stereo location that advertised Cain and Cain loudspeakers not only did they not have any Cain and Cain products but when I asked about tube amps the Salesman was not even interested in selling me in his words SOFT sound.
So out to the Net for me, driven there by a Retail Audio shop. Oh well, I like it here and I have had great fun with all the Audiogon members that I have worked with.
I love this blame game . I see it everywhere. everbody needs to be right. In religion, science,polititics ,marriage.You name it. But if we come up with a good reason why...someone will come up with a better reason why.Until we get so many good reasons ,that we don't know why anymore.
So who do we blame now...Jew or Arab...greek or Turk.
Tubes...ss... Blame blame... You are not in a hobby or game anymore!?
This is a funny thread, audiophiles are completely at fault for this situation.
Funny, I would say the opposite: Last time I got good service at a storefront dealer was ten years ago in Europe. Never mind that my first system after moving to the US was completely bought at retail, i.e. amp, CDP, turntable, all from the same dealer. And the service: Well the dealer told me since it was only a sub $3000 system he would not be able to spend half an hour to mount a cartridge. And that although this guy was hanging out at his shop the whole day waiting for customers to come in, with tons of downtime.
I agree that the current trend (better the trend for the last decade) to hunt down the best deal on everything from electronics to plasma TVs to DVDs has completely degenerated to an obsession for most consumers and is killing anyone who is trying to run a small business that focuses on service rather than price. But then the same is true in reverse for the high-end retailer. I found several only interested in selling 10,000+ systems, and best you decide 5 minutes after you enter the store while completely absorbing every lie and story the sales person told you. I caught too many dealers telling complete nonsense to their wonderfully naive "Hometheater customer" that Cinematic_Systems loves so much. Service starts on the service provider's side, not on the customer's side!
Sorry, but I would rather deal with all the enthusiasts in this hobby directly. All the manufacturers, direct distributors, small enthusiast dealers running their business out of their home have given me much better service than any regular store-front dealer so far. And they are by far busier and more limited in their time than any regular dealer I have been too. I never minded paying full retail in these cases, where there actually was a service.
I have a further 2 cents to add- 90% of what's out there really does not sound 5% different than its bretheren. However the remaining 5% can sound *so* much better that non-audiophiles from off the street can hear the improvement.
Sounds to me like the burned out salesman has yet to hear real, actually and truely decent equipment in the first place.
Another issue is that decent recordings are hard to come by since the advent of Pro-Tools. There are way too many 'notebook' mastered recordings out there that are dry, thin and uninvolving. Listening to too many of those will burn anybody out!
You are a salty fellow but made a couple of valid points.. If read my statement, the 5% applied to a certain level of equipmenet. Apples to apples. Sorry you don't like the Sonus Faber stuff. I personally am not crazy about the Dynaudio stuff. I guess that makes us even.
I could click on your system throw stones as you did with ease but it is not my style..
If you are in retail, you have been there too long...
Hit a nerve CS? While I agree to some of what you said, my real disagreement comes with fault. Audiophiles are not the only ones who want it both ways. What's your take on audio salons who complain about internet sales stealing customers while maintaining a website of their own which promotes worldwide sales?
Bravo! Cinematic Systems said it all and said it well. As did several others. Customers come to you to be informed, entertained and encouraged. Few feel any urge to compensate for these ministrations, however. When I was doing the audio sales floor thing, I never lasted more than 2 or 3 years at a time. It's just too taxing and it ruins your hobby for you. Have you ever wondered about the gynacologist's wife? What the hell must she have to do to get noticed?
This is a funny thread, audiophiles are completely at fault for this situation.
Want 20% off or MORE! and expect a business to keep quality people around with no margin? They can't, buy mail order so you can own it, even though "it" to you really is a review, bragging rights and a faceplate? Yes I'm talking about you!
How can someone own grand Piano's and say they believe in the 5% thing? When I sold Grand Piano's they were my whipping boys for selling the Audience 72's, 1/2 the price twice the performance (nobody disagreed when they heard it with their own ears). Don't get me started on the pathetic Amati Homages. The general consensus to this thread shows the incredible lack of personal expert advice available to the High End Audio consumer. If audiophiles would on a much wider basis learn to reward good service and not be selfish by trying to save money all the time at every turn, then maybe we would know that putting MIT cables on JMLabs is a really bad idea and we'd be happier.
But it has been my experience that audiophiles do not want to be happy. Really
"I have recently sold all my SS equipment for Tube equipment."
I'm sure this was well thought out process over the phone, the reason why they were enthusiastic is they don't have any other customers. Problem with hifi salesmen is Home Theater customers stop by and once given a convincing demonstration buy a system. A new concept for audiophiles I know who must correlate their new findings and consult their elders and tiki dolls for absolution and justification.
Audiophiles amuse me to no end with their complete inability to make a calculated decision and then engage in the flip side and make an impulse buy that lands them in purgatory for another year.
Nocaster what were you looking for at your local hifi shop? ie. What was the purpose of your visit?
Bottom line, retail is not what it used to be and the internet has just thrown most salesmen over the edge. Most people want to pick your brain, then go buy it used on this website or others. I had one guy call me after 2 years of no communications to pick my brain about good cheap DVD players for around $200 (when I didnt sell any). He had not and still has not bought anything from me. Any professional consultants out there in other industries? Try doing your job for free......would burn you out pretty quick.
Yep, I agree on the 5% thing too once you get to a certain level of gear. When I ran a High End Store, I would sometimes go Months without owning a system as I was never home. I was always at the store and could listen to whatever I wanted.
My impression from reading Aaudiogon is that it is the hobby, buying, selling, and tweeking, that is of most interest. Music is only the by-product. As Programmergeek suggests, it is blending of equipment that makes the magic, and I suspect that's right for him (or her). Is there a 5% difference among cables? I don't think so. But I agree there is more than a 5% difference between a Radio Shack mini speaker and a Wilson Sophia, and not just 5% worth of preference.
I too kind of agree with the 5% thing if the gear is competantly setup. I have heard the diminishing returns myself and at this point, I let functionality and looks play a role, in addition to sound quality of course, in the final decision making process.
I cant agree with the 5% thing. I cant say whether equipment is that close and set up is difficult, but I have heard a huge difference in the way stuff in salons sound. I have heard very "high end" stuff sound awful and modest stuff sound damn good. As for experience with sales people goes, complaining now is like beating a dead horse. Plenty of horror stories here if you search.
It was tough working for Salon 1 Audio.Lucky for my employer, I had been through most of what he carried and my system was bought through him.Only a few tweeks and cables sparked my interest.But I was pretty much on my own up in Wisconsin,so my audio system was a constant companion. Everyone has good days/bad days.Fortunately,the theme of truthful variations kept me sane and my customers happy. Just as in audio-synergy counts.
I agree whole heartedly with that statement. I've listened to alot of gear, and 5% is about the degree of difference I've seen. Maybe a bit more when you put something like an electrostat next to a woofer/tweeter type speaker. But once a certain level of quality is achieved, the diminishing returns sets in fast. I'm surprised there isn't a higher burn out rate with salesmen, if I spent all day trying to convince someone to drop thousands on a new shade of grey I might get frustrated as well. It's a fun hobby as long as you stay within a comfortable spending limit, and have realistic expectations. Another thing I like to do is have a few beers or a glass or two of wine when I listen, it really helps you forget about the gear and focus on the music. That's why we are all here right?
I have recently sold all my SS equipment for Tube equipment. Every one that I have dealt with, Cain and Cain Eastern Electric, and parts connexion were not only Enthusiastic but brimming with information on how to get the most from my equipment. Bill from Morningstar Audio is a wonderful person to deal with and I can Highly recommend him. Bob at the Elusive Disk is a great person to work with, he seems to know a lot about just about everything. Perhaps going to the RETAIL store is Dead not because of the internet but because of the LACK of Real Enthusiasm. But I dont think this is just limited to hi-fi, I have been to a lot of places that just seem to care less if youre a customer or not, and to those stores I just say NO!
Ask around at other high end shops. Most employees either don't have the money for a system, or are so sick of dealing with gear during the day they don't want to spend time with it at home..
Find another enthusiast. I sort of agree it is all good 5% or so on it own, with some exceptions but it is not so much how each component will work on its on but how you blend them together that makes the magic. For example a nice cable may work magic in one system with tube amps may sound horrible in another with the same tube amps and different tubes or SS amps. This is what the dealer is really needed for and if they dont play themselves how will they know what works together. I always try to find a dealer with a good ear. I can buy equipment off audiogon otherwise.
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