Burned out hi fi salesman

Here's some advice for Hi Fi Salesmen and Salesmen of All Things. Love to sell or do something else. Love what you sell or sell something else. If you love audio, you will be knowledgable and always learning. You will demo systems all day because it's a kick and you will sell because you like people, know your clientele and have their best interests at heart. I'd demo a system to anyone who really wants to listen. However, the fact is that, the man that comes into your store with his family,comes there to buy, the man with expensive shoes has money and the man taking notes is going to be a hard sell. Should I as a salesman ignore these facts? Should CWLONDON ignore market indicators? Should we ratify the patriot act? I think not.

Life is the view from a moving train. Every time you look out the window the scenery has changed. If you ride with your eyes closed like that salesman was doing, you are unaware of the scenery changes. All your perceptions will be based upon your most recent data. I would submit that many of the blue chip audio manufacturers are way out of touch and that the magazines help to keep them that way by rubber stamping praise for every product they introduce whether it is new or not.
There is stagnation at every level.

I visited a stereo shop in Orange County, So Cal a couple years ago and the salesman insisted that everything I owned was esoteric since it wasn't made by the brands he carried such as Audio Research, Magnapan or Pass Labs. He was really out of touch and uninterested in anything new. Later when I spoke to A'Gon member Viggen about that experience he said he'd been there and talked to the same guy. He said that salesman was crying about his life to him. Oh boy.

Think of stereo equip as a hill with an increasing slope, the difference in quality is narrowed as you go higher, but the price increases exponentially. But i find there is a "sweet spot" between price and performance.

(thanks to audiogon and ebay, most ppl can take their systems up a notch without price increase)

Funny and interesting thread. While I don't necessarily agree with the 5% notion, I do agree that you get more for your money than ever before, and that you can put together a fantastic-sounding system for cheaper than ever before. And because of this, I don't find it surprising that the role of the dealer has diminished and that people are price driven.

Isn't it a bit of a dichotomy, though, that in this same thread we're talking about how we're pursuing that last 5% and we're bemoaning why the market doesn't support independent dealers, etc.? There aren't many people who care enough to pursue the last 5% of performance, especially at the price differential, so support any retail outlets. That's no difference than any other specialty industry, and shouldn't be surprising.

The whole music industry seems to want to be able to get away with a 1980's business model, and the high-end wants to follow. I don't know why it's such a revelation that most of the world has passed this by.

Mdhoover,
Sorry for my part of the grim-fest. We happen to have a great local dealer, two in fact. And no joke, this community has been berry berry good to me.

Chico Escuela

Done

Cheers
Steve

Maybe at this point, we should all just hold hands and have a moment of silence as a community of fellow audiophiles?

I agree with CS. But as a consumer it's your job to find the best deal for yourself. It's hard to figure out whether a piece of equipment is good. Many dealers balk when you want to bring your own stuff in and hook it up. Better to go with the ones who will let you. Ever hear something at a show that sounded awful that got a good review? Ever hear the reviewer mention the room set up in the review? No. Of course not. Who was right? You or them? Judgement call. This is why people read the forums in the first place, isn't it? People buy here after listening (hopefully) b/c many dealers screw you when you bring back a busted amp and tell you "act of god" or worse "they all do that" instead of actually honoring the warranty. I am not impressed by name dropping expensive equipment. And that is the worst thing about 'gon. Most of the best albums I own were recorded in someone's basement or loft - hardly as nice a set-up as the playback gear on the system lists. I have not been screwed by a dealer but I have had many try. I would be more loyal - there are a couple I support - but many just do not care if they lose more business b/c you got a heads up from them during the sales pitch: "You need new speakers with that amp", "You can't use those interconnects they aren't grounded right", "Broken cartridge? Well, I'm philosphical about the no warranty thing". Right... I'd rather give my money to indy record stores.

Boa2,
I believe you just demonstrated the distinction between knowledgable and informed. I'm cheered to know you are in the vicinity.

Wow, this thread is amazingly grim. I've had great experiences with all local dealers, plus all buyers and sellers on Audiogon. Is that an exceptional experience?

Excellent question, Macrojack. I do see it going away, actually. When this latest version of the Roarin' 20s comes to a hammering halt, service will again usurp price as the most important selling tool. Until then, we'll continue beating up a salesperson on price in order to feed our sense of entitlement, a prevalent exercise in our superpower culture, and a practice that has little to do with money itself. Just my opinion, naturally.

Another issue that compromises this industry is the objective of lowest possible price. As a salesman I was approached fairly often by people who seemed more concerned about the size of the discount than the actual object about which they were asking. I don't know how or why it started but I do not see it going away. Do you?

but your post also prompts a memory of a fellow banker who went into Bergdorf Goodman in midtown NYC with his slinky new younger girlfriend and was treated badly by the salesperson, he thought because he was wearing torn jeans.

Slinky new young girlfriends on the arm of a banker carry no less social stigma than does a pitbull on the opposite end of the leash from a skinhead. We're designed to size people up at the surface, so rare is the occasion you will find someone willing to look beyond it. The truth is that unless your friend asks why he got lousy service, he can only presume the reason. If without asking he believes it's because of the torn jeans and slinky babe, then he's already atuned to the image he's presenting, don't you think? You've just described the game, as his disguise belies his ability to plunk down $100K on the Amex.

I agree with what you're saying. There are some woefully inadequate salespeople in this industry, and unfortunately so given the pristine nature of the product they sell. In the end, however, I think it just comes down to communicating what you want. And no, not everyone is selling on your terms. But if you want to cut through the BS, just don't bring it to the table in the first place.

Evita

Yes, very well and elegantly stated - the "routine" is ultimately deceitful and manipulative itself. It is sad that people would feel the need to employ that behaviour themselves, and I also appreciate your response.

But on some level, I have to say that I have more empathy and side more with the chippy Porsche buyer, than the hi fi salesman who feels his rarified expertise is wasted when someone innocently asks for their cheap speakers to be repaired.

Because in my experience, there are far more chippy, patronizing, lazy "if you have to ask you can't afford it" salespeople then there are customers wearing disguises. Isnt that why we started this thread?

And those so called salespeople somehow graviate to high end audio stores in higher percentages than other industries which, in my opionion, is one of the reasons that our hobby is hopelessly stuck in a contracting, cottage industry, nobody gives a damn about it mode.

I can see how urban myth stories like this would get started, but your post also prompts a memory of a fellow banker who went into Bergdorf Goodman in midtown NYC with his slinky new younger girlfriend and was treated badly by the salesperson, he thought because he was wearing torn jeans. (Now this guy was not in "disguise", simply badly dressed and a bit of a slob. )

Well, his chippy reaction was to plunk down the Amex Card and buy a $100,000 sable coat for the babe. And in this instance I suppose the salesperson is rewarded despite being a jerk, and the customer is happy because he got to act like a bigshot?

But in the end, what high end audio needs is neither disguised, nor macho big spenders.

What the purveyors of our hobby need to do is a better job educating and delighting paying customers, a better job differentiating, branding, packaging and promoting their products, a better job bring the beauty of music and art into more peoples' lives, and to do all of this with a level of professionalism, charm, charisma, integrity and VIP red carpet service that justifies higher margins which will enable them to have a successful business.

Evita,
I've been thinking the same thing but could not figure out how to say it so nicely. Bravo.

he went shopping IN DISGUISE with the old van and T-Shirt routine, just to see which salesmen would treat him well, regardless of appearances.

It is a routine, isn't it? Either that, or an urban legend that gets recycled over and over in order to prove a point. But exactly what point does it prove? That someone should introduce himself deceitfully in order to expect honesty in return? What a disingenuous way to get what you really want, whereby the only one who wins the petty game is the one who ultimately outclasses even you.

The reason that all the components HE has heard sound within 5% of each other is based on the principle that 95% of ALL stereo equipment is absolute JUNK to begin with.

Lrsky

Again, I appreciate what I interpret to be your good intentions and sincerity here.

But 25 years later, I still cringe at my memories of fellow audio salesmen peering through the glass door to check out a customers car before deciding if they should pounce or continue reading the paper, and/or cheesey leading questions like "Is that a DAYTONA?! (watch)" or salespeople whose most valuable asset was their own watch, trying to project that they were somehow on the same level as what they assumed to be a rich customer.

And to me, this type of superficial analysis contributes to all of the worst stereotypes about high end salesmen with patronizing, chippy attitudes.

While we are on the subject, here is an anecdote for you:

A few years ago, I had a similar conversation with a guy who specialised in selling rare, low mileage air cooled Porsche 911s and Turbos.

He explained to me that one of his best customers was an African American man who drove up to his showroom in a rusty old van wearing a ripped T-shirt and dirty jeans.

The moral of the story is that after he treated this customer with SERVICE and RESPECT, he bought his first car the very same day on the spot.

As he began to trust the salesman, he confided that he ran a cable television company in NYC (made $ millions) but was so sick of being stereotyped either negatively because of his race or positively because of his job that he went shopping IN DISGUISE with the old van and T-Shirt routine, just to see which salesmen would treat him well, regardless of appearances.

To me, this simple lesson in business could cure the majority of problems in high end audio stores and has nothing to do with noticing whether or not someone's shirts are monogrammed.

Cheers

Cwlondon

Cwlondon,
I was only describing events--you've missed the point entirely.
The man was decked, I saw it and acted.
I can also recant the time when the leader of the band Nickel Creek came in in a tattered tee shirt and wanted a system. Not having heard of Nickel Creek,(before their success) I happily sold him a system that was terrific for a reasonable price. We together loaded it into an older Nissan, which was loaded with paper and cans, etc. Very non pretentious--this was an example not a message to sell those who seem wealthy, just being aware of situational moments.
Please understand, selling is selling, not judging---ever!!
If you read that, I apologize as it's not that message.

Larry

Rhljazz,
MOST ASSUREDLY!!! That is axiomatic for any good salesman.
Very good point though for someone who thinks that dress dictates treatment.
I don't wany anyone to think I responded only because he was dressed well--only that I noted we 'seemed' to be letting someone who 'appeared' APPEARED, to be underpurchasing, that is just reconing speakers when in fact, he was probably ready for a better system.
I made it a point to treat everyone the same, yet be careful to note when someone of obvious 'means' or at least spending habits seemingly apparent.
NEVER judge a customer, by the look, that is totally foreign from this message, just a factor in what happened.
Thanks for the question.
Best,
Larry

I started working in an audio store when I was 16 years old. At about $3.75 an hour as I recall, my only motivation was a love for music and audio.

This cynical assessment of customers ability to spend never entered my mind - perhaps because I was a kid who had previously delivered newspapers and saved up in order to afford my first Hafler amps and Magneplanar MG-1s.

I had never heard of a "Rolex" or "Breitling" and I barely knew the difference between a BMW and a Porsche.

But I tried to treat everyone with an equal degree of service and respect and I became pretty successful at selling.

With hindsight, the biggest and highest margin sales I ever made weren't to customers driving either a new Mercedes or a vintage BMW, but just straightforward, hard working people who came to the shop with a love of music and an interest in learning more about good audio.

The other salespeople, who more typically trained their eyes on the next customers' watch or car, usually missed these opportunities and were always stunned when I ended up writing the biggest tickets of the day.

So Lrsky although I appreciate your points about burned out salespeople not improving the world, and I think it is great that you gave seminars on more successful selling, frankly I think both and Rhljazz are equally clueless - albeit with different politics - about your ability to predict buying habits based on a superficial analysis of your customers car and clothes.

Now if you happened to know not only about the break in someone's trousers but also how to differentiate between a pair of Lobb bespoke shoes and a pair of Lobb off the rack shoes or a pair of Berluti shoes, or you knew a Paul Newman Rolex Daytona from a Chinese fake Daytona, or you knew the difference between a real 73 Porsche 911 RS and the myriad copies on the road, or beyond the break in the trousers you could really spot a Savile row suit or a pair of Turnbull and Asser cashmere socks, well then maybe maybe MAYBE you MIGHT be able to draw some conclusions about his ability to buy, say, a Rockport turntable without the bank calling to interrupt your glorious sale once he hands you his credit card.

But if I were betting in Vegas, I would say that neither of you can discern these differences and you therefore are simply fantasizing that a guy with monogrammed cuffs is a better bet than a heating and air conditioning contracter who just finished his job.

To further complicate matters, I no longer sell audio but advise some of the richest people in the world on their investments.

And I can tell you that despite their genuinely bespoke suits and collections of Patek Phillippes, they can be some of the cheapest penny pinchers I have ever met in my life, and even if they weren't they typically have no interest in audio and are more likely to own Bose speakers than buy a pair of Thiels, after even a good demo.

So in summary, I agree that burned out salespeople should get another job.

But successfully selling audio - or anything else for that matter - has less to do with clumsily ballparking your customers bank account than it does with listening to their needs, understanding their interests and concerns, helping to educate them about the benefits of your products and services, and helping them to enjoy something and improve the quality of their life.

cheers

cwlondon

Larry, would your action be the same if the guy was wearing shorts, racing tee shirt, athletic shoes, vintage Elgin watch, and driving a vintage BMW? Such a guy might be able to afford the same products. I see lots of guys that fit your description that are dollar maxed out on maintaining an image. They can't afford to put brakes on their car when they are needed. Salesman always try to qualify a potential customer but appearance can be deceiving.

Burnout is a problem in all walks of professional life.
I traveled the country doing seminars, called 11 Hard Earned Lessons--annecdotal recitations of actual experiences I had had over the years of selling audio.
What separates the good from the great, the great from the spectacular, is passion, and self awareness, and frankly, pride.
When a salesman goes home each night, (audio or otherwise) he or she must, in the quiet moments, ask the question, "What did I do right today?", then "What did I do Wrong".
Oftentimes sales people do everything wrong during a sale, but the customer buys anyway, creating a false impression for the seller--he/she makes incorrect assumptions about the efficacy of his/her work.
Conversely the same sales people do everything right, and even if the customer has the proper ingredients, "money, motivation", (book exerpts) and he/she's established 'value perception' (another exerpt) they STILL may not buy. HOW CONFUSING!
So, the sales person has to be self aware enough to know the difference between, "hey I did it right, he or she just wasn't ready, and hey I did it wrong and, they bought anyway".
Self analysis, with some very astute counseling with a professional sales manager goes a long way toward knowing what happens.
Anacrusis, is the post above, points out that people shouldn't go into a store if 'regardless of what you hear, you're not going to purchase'. That is a good point but it misses the mark slightly.
All sales people dislike having the 'tire kickers' or the customer with the 'friend/expert advisor' who knows more about audio than any 'salesman' could possibly know... but these people ironically make up a great portion of buyers if handled in the right way. (This is hard to do, because time is money, is time, is money...)

Quick story, and absolutely true.
One day a man came into an Audio Store I happend to be in--he wanted the rubber surrounds on his 20 year old woofers redone, as they had rotted, and fallen apart--a $75. item or thereabouts, they were so old as to need rework as they were no longer available. I watched as the service guy took the obligatory information for this virtually unprofitable transaction.
I looked outside and saw the white Mercedez he had driven up in, then at the man's monographed cuffs on his shirt, along with the perfect 'break' in his tailor made pants.
I walked over and said, "Hey, I'm Larry, I'm with THIEL Audio, here to do a seminar, would you like to hear something cool while he's finishing the ticket?" The man said "Sure."
Half an hour later he owned a pair of CS6's and then within two weeks, a Krell Amp and CD player, altogether more than $15/$20K, I can't remember the exact amount.
Sounds simple when I state it this way, but it's not. It's just that, 'burned out' sales people hurt everyone, especially themselves, as they run customers off, sell short of the customers buying potential, and generally wreak havoc on the sales floor. It's hard work selling--being 'up' all the time, but its no harder in a curious way, than repeating the phrase thousands of nights, (if you're playing the lead in a Broadway rendition of the play Camelot), "The rain may never fall till after sundown. By eight the morning fog must disappear. In short, there's simply notA more congenial spot
For happily-ever-aftering than here
In Camelot." Telling the same story thousands of different ways, and remaining excited about it is hard work!
Selling is repitition, patience, truth, establishing value, and remembering that each, 'real' customer has a desire to purchase if you do your job correctly.
Sorry this was so long, but it is something that hard working sales people can hopefully identify with.

Larry

As a hi fi saleman of close to thirty years here's my take:
Don't go into a stereo store and waste a saleman's time if, regardless of what you hear, you are not going to buy from him or her and then rationalize your guilt and your ethical obligation away expose facto by saying that you weren't treated right. Tell the salesperson up front that you're not there to buy but to gather information and listen. If he's worth his salt and he has the time he'll spend it with you and enjoy the experience. But woe be tide unto you if you take the salesman away from his floor while he can be making money.

Our perceptions of value outside of nature are nothing more than an illusion and on a very real level buying something from anyone is nothing less than an act of kindness and humanity. The idea that you can quantify, by percentages, the quality of sound or the accuracy of sound or the joy derived from the sound is the silliest thing I have ever heard of. Stereo sales people burn out because they don't get traffic, they can't sell, or they don't love the hobby.

My experience with hi fi in NH was going into one of the few high end dealers (mostly home theater) and asking about tube amps. I was shown a Golden Tube tube SE 40 amp for about $1000, told all the Chinese stuff was junk, and told to buy this from them used with no warranty. This was the only tube amp in the store at the time. Lack of choice is a major reason I purchase on Audiogon. They also showed me a set of consignment speakers made by " Kestral 2 ". I advised them these were "Meadowlark" Kestral 2's, and let them know the manufacturer was out of business. Lack of knowledge was also an issue with me. Audiogon has been a lifesaver for me, and allowed me to assemble a system I could not have put together from any local dealers.

Perkidin,

At 24, when I purchased my first new porsche, the first sales person did not even want to talk to me so I went down the cubes and found a sales person that wanted my business, this salesperson not only took me for a test drive but really sounded interested in working with me. I paid cash that day. Treat your clients as you would want to be treated. Simple but effective. (oh and back then 911s were only 30,000)

Move to Denver CO.

We have many execelent shops in town. Although most do HT also they still have an execelent assortment of Highend gear. Both for the HT enthusist and the Audiophool.

Michael

I had my chance to buy my friends audioshop I looked into it did a biz plan etc. and found it to be a dying biz .Only thing floating it was HT home install.Well for years I bought most all my gear from these fine folks but as time moved on and audio types like me started looking into other types of systems instead on giant SS or Tube amp with low eff loudspeakers.This and all the other local shops just moved into more HT gear so if I wanted to buy in town it was order only and wait and even then hardly any choice for gear.So I had no choice but to purchase online and DIY.Audioshops did this to themselfs why blame the customers?

Just learn to shop on Audiogon. Solve all those problems. :)

How many 22 y/o college students purchase $3300 amps? I think the salesman was being a salesman. I suppose if a Posrche dealer didn't want to take you on a test drive it was because he's not into cars. I hate to say it but at 22 unless you roll up in a H2 and look like you have cash you wont get much attention from hi end dealers. Just ask a few intelligent questions, show you know what you are talking about, bring cd's, and you'll get good service.

why do people like quixotic quest make such negative comments on such an obviously subjective thing as music?

Hello Quixotic_quest

Ï will defend your right to "Freedom of speech" no matter what! Be well, and may you have plenty of time to listen to whatever kind music and equipment you like.

Cheers,
Nocaster

To preface what I say. I work in a home theater department at a big box retailer. I am a 22 year old college student and have been in this hobby for a little over a year. From the consumer side of things in the town that I live only has a couple of hifi stores. When I recently wanted to purchase an amplifier I decided to stop by one of the local dealers. The salesperson treated me as if I was if I was wasting their time. Granted that at the time there was not anyone else in the store and I was really interested in purchasing one of the amplifiers that they were selling. It was like pulling teeth trying to get a demo of said amplifier. Needless to say that they will not ever get my business and I spent $3300 on the amplifier elsewhere. This was my experience and I think that the lesson to be learned is for salespeople to get excited about what they are selling. If you do not want to demo the equipment that you sell, then why bother to work there. It is obviously not that person's calling in life so they should find what that is. I understand that there are a lot of people that just want to waste time. There are tons of people like that coming to see retailers every day. However, the one or two that actually want to purchase something that they will enjoy make working worth while. The other thing is when you go to some of these retailers you have about a fifty-fifty shot of finding someone that really cares and gets excited about what they are doing. The problem with a lot of retailers is that most of the employees are kids like myself that are putting themselves through college and they really do not know or care about what it is that they are selling, it is more or less just another college job as opposed to a career. (As a college job though, it is a lot of fun showing people what they can get for a little more money than an HTIB). Does it approach the sonic realism that most of us has with most of our systems? Probably not, but it is enjoyable to give somebody a good demo of what a decent system sounds like. With that being said the reason I got into this hobby is that someone showed me an incredible demo of a 2-channel system that gave me that "I have to have that" feeling. Hopefully, when I graduate in May and get a "career" I will be able to find a shop that has a salesperson that is as enthusiastic about this hobby as we all are.

Washline, very nice comments. I completely agree that the current
circumstances for dealers are very harsh and difficult, on one side the
Internet and Best Buy on the other hand a very spezialized market. I have
almost stopped going to dealers for the same reasons as Jactoy. I actually
never went to a dealer to just listen and then buy on Agon. If I decide to go
used, I usually just go for it, try it out for a while and sell it if I don't like it. If I
listen at a dealer and like it, I will buy there. Your idea of a present is very
good one for the failed opportunites where you did not enjoy the gear
enough, but where you would like to keep good relations.

Anyway, I still think that the current business model would support a very
different solution, very similar to Matrix suggestions. I would not mind paying
for a two month home demo, if that means I can return it in case I don not
enjoy the piece. In fact, Cinematic_Systems' approach of home demoing is
quite similar as claimed on his website. I just don't agree that it is the
Audiphile market that needs to change, but rather I thik retailer need to adapt
to the changing and more diverse market. The dealer then becomes a real
service provider for demos and consultant to indentify what is needed to
reach a good sound (room analysis, identifiaction of problems and solutions).

As always, best wishes,

Rene

--"For me it's about the music, the equipment is only a tool."-- Nocaster

If that's true...Why in the HELL were you buying a Patricia Barber album?

If that's your idea of music, no wonder you don't care about your system!

Washline a well balance post,congratulations and happy
holiday to you, ten years ago I am just an audiophile
who is learning,I am not making enough money to buy
expensive gears,but I have the potential to make more
money,that time many dealers ignore me, and it hurts,
because I do love music,you think the dealers care?
I did not think so.
Ten years after I can afford at least 30K system, easy.
Those dealers who did not treat me right, did not
get my business.I learn so much here a Agon,Emailing
Tireguy,Stehno,and many more friends here,I have learned
a lot,WITH NO CHARGE OF COURSE.
I have to remind dealers if they will treat potential
buyers right,they will remember that,and they will come
back,or they will refer them,It happen so many times,
I know a dealer who is extremely happy because, I send
Him a lot of buyers.We are both happy, because we are
able to help.Thanks

5% sounds like a lot to me. More like .5%. But that's the difference audiophiles pay the most for. I agree: the sales person was not a believer so he should not be in the business of proselytizing.

I think Cinematic Systems makes a number of good points, and I also think it's important to read the "writing on the wall," as he suggests. If he is saying that trying to please an audiophile community and having little yield is causing problems for retailers/system installers like himself, then there's probably some truth to that. Audiophiles can be a relentlessly unsatisfied group. But not being able to audition equipment can hinder other opportunities to buy as well. It's difficult to buy things on the Audiogon without having the opportunity to listen to the equipment first. I don't think that given the nature of the hobby, given the precision of the selection and the price that people should assume the same kinds of approaches should apply as with normal consumption choices. In an industry where sales involve a lot more misses than hits, I think people should cut the retailers some slack. Do you enjoy being able to go into shops and hear gear whenever you want and then buy on the Audiogon used because the stuff costs too much at the shops? Then maybe offer some gestures of appreciation. Give the dealer a gift certificate to a restaurant. Take him out for "several" beers, or what have you. I really really enjoyed one dealer last year. he gave me a lot of time, a lot of opportunities to listen to music on his equipment. I very much wanted to give him my business, but I didn't like the gear as much as I wanted to with my music. I ended up buying elsewhere. What did I do? I bought this dealer a gift set last December as a Christmas gift for his trouble. In so doing, I got another chance to listen and talk some more. The generosity to be able to listen is a two-way street. it doesn't come free for a dealer. Show them some appreciation and buy them a gift for the holidays if they've done well by you and you didn't end up buying. Their time and effort, even if ultimately for selling, doesn't come free. Bravo CS.

To:Cinematic_systems

The reason I was at my local hi fi store was to pick up a Patricia Barber album. The sales guy spotted the "Vinyl" and started talking to me about equipment. I declined an offer to listen to "Whatever I want" because as I said to the salesman "I am very happy with my system". For me it's about the music, the equipment is only a tool.

Cheers,
Nocaster.

Cinematic system's,you asked how i know what i want without ever hearing it,your question would be spot on if we were talking about me trying to achieve a certian type of sound which i am not,for the most part im satisfied with my sound & im not one to pick apart every weakness in a certian peice of gear.

early on in this hobby i discovered that i liked the way mcintosh gear sounded & made a choice to build an all mcintosh rig,after i achieved that goal i chose to build different mcintosh rig's based around xrt 22 speaker's & ive done that several time's using all sort's of mac ss & tube gear alike.

i allready enjoy the way my rig sound's so my searching & buying of new gear is just to try different peice's & have fun at the same time & not to achive a sound i think i dont have or that i need.

dont paint me with the same brush used to describe time wasting tire kicker's or indecisive buyer's, i never ask my dealer what i need nor do i want to be informed by him of anything,i do all my own research before i even visit my dealer so i know as much as i can about the gear in question,i also orient myself as to what other dealer's are selling the same gear for & what that gear will be worth in a year when i want to try something new,when i visit my prefered dealer ive made my mind up on what i want to buy allready & i go there with the intent on laying down cash on the spot,no game's just business.

most of the time i agree with you on most issue's but your way off base here,you point out that putting a $90 driver into a cabinet is not all that time consuming refering to the mark up & i agree with that but dont fault me because i refuse to pay price's for any gear that would allow a salesman/owner to take his entire family to the bahama's for a week's vacation for simply running my visa thru the machine & making a call to order the gear.

a good salesman should know the difference between buyer's that need to be sold & buyer's that come to buy & be able to handle both with courtesy & respect & a smart businessman would rather have a potential customer waste hour's of his time answering question's as oposed to sending him away with a bad taste in his mouth to tell other's how poorly he was treated in that store.

it's called customer service & it's something that audiophile's have grown used to not getting but now over the last few year's with audiogon having such a huge presence for buyers,dealers & manufacturer's alike alot of buyer's are realizing that they dont have to be treated like tird's to enjoy the hobby & the dealer's with poor communication skill's & age old selling pratice's are really feeling the heat.

mike.

I gotta ask everyone here, do you trust anybody with absolutes in sound? Common guys you are end result, regardless if anyone can sell you one concept or another its all about your knowledge of how a sound, or system you want should be developed, ALL A DEALER should do is make sure you get your Price point if possible and within reason, Support your Concept and opinion of view and just guide you toward the items they believe will help, whether they think it is correct or not(sink or swim) cause sound is far to subjective, and return the unit after you find 3 days or 30 days later that its not the right thing for you and have no questions beyond how can we move you to something different that will be livable and happy in the end for you. A note to Dealers: Bottom line FACT most guys with the decent hiend shops have gone to a FLAT out no return or No money back, credit only system and of course that scares away guys that know you can purchase the item for 40% less online or used and simply take LESS of a bath if they decide to re-sell on sites like this great audiogon.com or ebay... Hell half of us would not have gotten this far without online and about 9 out of 10 of us could be even Less happy with our systems if we only could have that 6 product lines available in our area by a couple of dealers. That being said You Dealers want to have a viable reason for existance again, well thats a place to start. I do have to say I understand the risk of letting customers return and not be stuck buying another product from you is a tuff and possibly dangerous business but to get me back into local shops this is what I look for... Most if lucky will tell you okay if you take this item for 10,000$ on friday we give you 7 days, then charge you and its all credit if you bring it back after that.
Well to me thats tuff, hell I might think its great the saturday I pick it up, not even really get the time put in to hear it much more by the following weekend and then I'm screwed.
This is something I see occuring more than maybe you guys know but it exists, so ask before anything else whats the return policy.
Of course if you Special order an Item well thats a very different story, but even then you can go direct to manufacture in that case many times and they will audition it to you cost of shipping back and forth and save you the mistake, Dealers simply have less options in this respect and I sympathise, but thats the way the Audiophile brain works Cinematic_systems, not that you are guilty of this but there are much deeper problems with local retail than even you might think about because you are on the other side of the Coin(or money) Rant over.

Yes,,talk about burning bridges(CS).They left me with a bad taste-period!

(CS)

0

Cinematic Systems aka Doug

Sweet Web Site! It really is hotlick! Did you do that yourself?

www.cinematicsystems.net

I live in Northern VA and have never heard of your company. Good luck competing with JS Audio, Soundworks, Sound Images and Tweeter.. It's rough out there.

Happy Holidays!

Chris

Dlstephenson, my point exactly. Nice to see someone else thought
Cinematic_Systems' comment and view was as far fetched.

Get a Grip.

"The diversity presented by audiophiles is killing the hobby ... Fact is we don't hear all that differently from one another ... no instead we all have different goals for why we have a system. Until we can focus as a group this will get worse."

Oh good gosh, the diversity is what is moving this industry, not killing it. I dont want you to dictate what is good sound, I want you to show me choices so I can enjoy music. What sounds great to me will not be great to everyone. Thats why we have all these choices. If I want to buy a toyota because I think its better than your chevy then thats my choice. But it sounds like you want everyone to buy chevys. It just doesnt work that way.

Cinematic_Systems: Thanks for the posterboy!

Your niche interest in niche audio is exactly my point. Who's going to make a living selling that stuff?

I never aspired to keep the whole high-end industry going. But here are a couple of increasing number of enthusiasts who are out there, that might make at least a "partial" living from it: Jim at Sounds Real Audio, Terry Cain, Don Garber, Nelson Pass, Graham Fowler etc. At least my money is going directly to the ones, who actually do provide a service.

Do you think you can convince me that you have a good sounding system? That when I listen to it will sound like the artist intended? I think not.

How do you know what the artist intended? Do you use studio monitors and listen to your records on how the producer/artist intended it? Maybe the intended for it a little boom box or as great car music?

I'm sure its magical and musical for you but is it "good sound" or just your sound?

Isn't that the purpose of music? To make ME enjoy it? I would say that my current system, at this price, is the best one I heard coming close to live Jazz, as I hear it at the clubs close by. The Sax sounds like a Sax.

Fact is most audiophiles like yourself are equally gullible, how hard would it be to mount a $90 Fostex Driver in a box? Well I've already had my runin with the Cain&Cain boys on a DIY forum. People have bought Thiels CS1.6's despite the huge distortion spike in the midrange. What are we doing as a group? Why are we supporting this sort of product? Cause it "sounds good?" Does it really?

Maybe I am gullible? Maybe making a nice box and mounting a driver in that nice of a box is quite hard? Mounting several in an even uglier box with a couple of circuit elements - is that really harder? Anyway, this is beside the point and it just seems like you have a personal problem with Cain, but maybe that's just your ears? I did measure the Abby’s in room frequency response and it was certainly not worse than Spender S3/5 (which are supposed to be flat and quite good.) I don't expect everyone to like this system: I am sure many would be unsatisfied with the bass response, but then bass is not important to make a violin sound like a violin. Given a budget constraint one has to choose his poison and what one can live with. In fact I recommended quite different systems to two friends: 1) a Linn Classic with Spender S3/5, 2) a Magenta hometheater system with a Denon receiver. For both, it represented pretty much what they wanted. Different people, different objectives.

When's the last time you worked for free Rene? Are you entitled at $3000 for free services, did he have a sign that said so? He made $1200 in profit on your purchase? When you make $1200 a week, do you work for free for your employer...hell no you don't

To get back to topic: Dealers used to mount a cartridge when you bought both, cartridge and turntable from them. He even saved the time to demo the turntable it in store (to low priced to even mount a cartridge for display). And yes, he said he would mount it...
As for the pay: Hell, I am making less than $1200 in TWO weeks. Maybe the expectation of making the big money as a sales person have grown a little out of proportion. And maybe if he would have performed the service I would have sent two friends back there so that he could make 3 times $1200 profit that week.

Maybe I understand the burnout of dealers and frustration just too well, but I would hope for most to keep some enthusiasm for audio. I got a Ph. D. in physics only because I am enthusiastic about physics, and no, money isn't everything Quite often I do work quite late, after hours, and during unpaid breaks. Maybe you should get your job satisfaction from something you enjoy. I understand it is very, very easy to get burned out if you are enthusiastic. Take a look around most physics departments at universities: Most people are burned out since they are not the one earning that six figure salary in industry and that just because they chose to not do that and instead do fundamental research. Does that mean I blame the public for not appreciating fundamental research in quantum mechanics...?

The diversity presented by audiophiles is killing the hobby ... Fact is we don't hear all that differently from one another ... no instead we all have different goals for why we have a system. Until we can focus as a group this will get worse.

I think your ideal customer just walked away with a Bose system from Best Buy. Diversity is why this market exists in first place. If all of us would be so gullible and fall in line, we would have followed the Wal-Mart culture and go with a Sony system in first place. Of course like you said: We follow reviews and recommendations quite often blindly. But didn't you just ask us to follow a dealer's advice blindly. And no, we do hear differently: We have different budget, different tastes in music, and my wife listens very differently than me.

Anyway, we obviously have fairly opposing opinions and visions on where this hobby should go. Sorry for this lengthy response and if this one got a little off topic or maybe not so :)

All the best,

Rene

99% of the time a salesman does have a system at home, it barely has any piece's in it that he sells!! If he is a true music lover anyway this could be the case, or he's a BMW salesman that drives a Corvette, and is just there cause its a job. If he owns the store thats a different story, cause then he can try to carry the brands he believes is the best.

It's a shame that there aren't more places like Salon 1 Audio-out of business.I hooked up with Bruce Jacobs/S1A in 1984,through a friends' referral.They stocked almost 500 different brands,and were available for home auditions.Generally,Bruce and his top sales person could give you a good handle on what a unit would sound like.After auditioning several units and relating the experience,they could guide you to a pieve that was a near-ideal match.That is how I learned about audio gear,and why I went to work for S1A.As much work as it was( even with the presence of a few tire-kickers),at the end of the day it made me happy to know that I had helped others derive a little pleasure from this hobby.
I suppose it's a big wide wonderful world,there's room for everybody-just don't let the sour-pusses cloud it up for you.Happy holidays-and listening.Tom

I'd love to know what percentage of Audiogon forum posters have actually bought anything from a brick and mortar audio dealer since they've joined Audiogon. My guess is the numbers are very low. Is this because of the higher prices? That's one reason, but I'd wager it's because most Audiogoners either don't need advice and service or don't want it. One of the main purposes of Audiogon is to provide a way for us to support and educate each other rather than rely on retailers or reviewers; that's certainly why I'm here. I'm still in my audio infancy (maybe a toddler by now) and the advice and insight I've gained here has been invaluable. I can get tens or hundreds of opinions on something whereas if I go to a retail store I'll get one. It will likely be a well thought out and valid opinion, but still only one opinion.

Cinematic_systems is right that no brick and mortar store could stay in business just selling to audiophiles. They have no value to add to our market other than providing a listening room, and most of us realize you can only truly audition at home in your own room with the rest of your own equipment. The other things they provide most Audiogoners don't need. Opinions? We get an abundance here. Prices? New gear cheaper via Internet retailers; used gear WAY cheaper here or on eBay. Service? Most Audiogoners do all their own setup and tweaking; they wouldn't have it any other way.

Are brick and mortar retailers being squeezed out? Of course they are, just like corner hardware stores are losing out to Home Depot; the entire consumer marketplace is changing. Cinematic_systems and other retailers like him will do what they have to do to survive; if that means concentrating on the "Home Theater" buyer, you can't blame them. If that means they can't offer service to the audiophile crowd, I can live with that. I'm perfectly happy here, learning a lot, chuckling at the impassioned debates, forming my own opinions, buying used gear at great prices, and having a blast both putting together my system and listening to the increasing better music it provides.